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Creationist Ken Ham Says Aliens Will Go To Hell So Let's Stop Looking For Them

Aliens, on the other hand, could be very different from us; so different we may not be able to imagine or comprehend how much so. They might be extremely cooperative and respectful of each other within their own species.... and at the same time have decided it is in their best interest to exterminate all sapients not of their kind. We have no way of knowing.

I would expect them to be much different from us, and I would expect that difference to probably be much more civilized. My reasoning is that if they were advanced enough to come here, then their technology would have destroyed their civilization, had they not learned to use it wisely and judiciously. I would also expect that their mental capability has developed far beyond ours, and that their emotional capability has greatly diminished, as the strong emotional makeup that we have is one of the primary reasons we are destructive. I have no evidence, of course, but logically, that is what I would expect to see. Less "human", but in a positive way.
 
It's like thinking all cats are black, because you've only ever seen one cat and it was black.

No, it's not. Genetic variation in a species is just as presumable as intelligent life having social development.
 
I would expect them to be much different from us, and I would expect that difference to probably be much more civilized. My reasoning is that if they were advanced enough to come here, then their technology would have destroyed their civilization, had they not learned to use it wisely and judiciously. I would also expect that their mental capability has developed far beyond ours, and that their emotional capability has greatly diminished, as the strong emotional makeup that we have is one of the primary reasons we are destructive. I have no evidence, of course, but logically, that is what I would expect to see. Less "human", but in a positive way.



That is one possibility.


Another possibility is that the alien civilization is like an intelligent insect hive... highly cooperative internally but ruthless toward any outsiders.
 
That is one possibility.


Another possibility is that the alien civilization is like an intelligent insect hive... highly cooperative internally but ruthless toward any outsiders.

True. I suspect it would depend greatly on the degree of diversity, and the challenges of wherever they came from. I still tend to expect they would lean more toward the peaceful end of the spectrum, though, since they had managed to survive their own advance of technology.
 
True. I suspect it would depend greatly on the degree of diversity, and the challenges of wherever they came from. I still tend to expect they would lean more toward the peaceful end of the spectrum, though, since they had managed to survive their own advance of technology.


Perhaps. My point is that we have no way of knowing just by looking at humanity; speculating based on a single example has been proven to be highly prone to error.
 
Um, dude.... that is based on observing only ONE intelligent species, and any generalizations based on a sample of ONE are very suspect. Indeed, to assume respect for rights increases with time you have to focus mainly on the West and ignore about half the world.


Aliens, on the other hand, could be very different from us; so different we may not be able to imagine or comprehend how much so. They might be extremely cooperative and respectful of each other within their own species.... and at the same time have decided it is in their best interest to exterminate all sapients not of their kind. We have no way of knowing.

Like ants. Just one alien race like ants and bam, his alien-brotherly-love theory is toast.

edit: oh, you addressed this already.
 
A vastly more advanced civilization will be less socially developed than we are. We're all gonna die! :scared:

You know what? Maybe you're right. Maybe they would be more advanced and would recognize us not just as some crude source of nutrition but as a sentient species in our own right. In that case, their name for us wouldn't be "Shell-less Meat Sponge," but something more dignified. Something like "The Prior Inhabitants of Our New Blue Green Planet."

Oh, sure. They'll be more "advanced," alright.

They might even be so "advanced," in point of fact, as to kill us all using a nice sterile asteroid, or relativistic kill vehicle launched from a half billion miles away or more, in order to spare themselves the trouble of having to do it up close and personal.

You know... So they don't have soil their precious tentacles or other assorted appendages with the filth of our primitive world, or make any of the various gas bladders and digestive pouches which characterize their anatomy "queasy" with the sight of our sundry bodily fluids drenching the ground.

Hell! If they're really "advanced," they might've even gone so far as to set some nice, self-replicating artificially intelligent kill drones loose upon the galaxy eons ago to do all of the "dirty work" of wiping out competing civilizations for them. That way, they can still lie to themselves about how "enlightened" and "advanced" they are while simultaneously being able to live under the blanket of protection wanton cruelty and destruction so often provides.

Ain't civilization fun? :mrgreen:
 
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Hardly random. A subject I've been contemplating and intermittently studying for about forty years.


My point is that assuming the aliens would have a societal development that looks like human Western civilization is as big of an assumption, as assuming they'd literally LOOK like humans.

Hell! Not even all human civilizations have followed the same path that the Western World has. Frankly, there is good reason to suspect that the Western world view and way of life might very well be an unsustainable "passing fad" which isn't here to stay in the long run anyway.

Eco's certainty is likely misplaced, methinks.
 
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Like ants. Just one alien race like ants and bam, his alien-brotherly-love theory is toast.

edit: oh, you addressed this already.

Yeah, intelligent ants... because that makes sense. :roll:

I figure aliens will be subject to the same laws of physics that we are, and ant brains ain't gonna cut it for evolution to intelligence.
 
Yeah, intelligent ants... because that makes sense. :roll:

I figure aliens will be subject to the same laws of physics that we are, and ant brains ain't gonna cut it for evolution to intelligence.

Okay. Ant brains can't develop intelligence because of physics. And we should embrace aliens.

[backs slowly away]
 
Okay. Ant brains can't develop intelligence because of physics. And that's why we should embrace aliens.

[backs slowly away]

What? I'm just saying that claiming intelligent ant aliens is ignorant crap. It's ignorant of biology and physics, which I presume aliens will be subject to as well.

You spewing nonsense has nothing to do with why we should not fear aliens. I've already explained why we need not fear aliens.

I suppose everyone that supports sending out signals and such is just stupid and hasn't considered your fantasy. Or... maybe... it's pretty ****ing obvious from our own development that we are sure to be less civilized than a civilization vastly more advanced.
 
Yeah, intelligent ants... because that makes sense. :roll:

I figure aliens will be subject to the same laws of physics that we are, and ant brains ain't gonna cut it for evolution to intelligence.

Okay, so scale them up a couple of million times, but keep the same social dynamic.

What's the difference? His point still stands. :shrug:

Frankly, that's not accounting for more "exotic" possibilities either. We could easily redesign human beings to live and think more like ants, given the proper knowledge of genetic engineering, and the right collectivist ideology behind it.

There's no reason to think that "individualism" will always necessarily be held to be sacrosanct, after all.
 
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Okay, so scale them up a couple of million times, but keep the same social dynamic.

What's the difference? His point still stands. :shrug:

No, it doesn't. Ant brains are not suited for evolution to an intelligent species (not via biology or physics), it doesn't matter how big they are! :lamo

Frankly, that's not accounting for more "exotic" possibilities either. We could easily redesign human beings to live and think more like ants, given the proper knowledge of genetic engineering, and the right collectivist ideology behind it.

I'd suggest more time studying science and less time watching HBO.

There's no reason why "individualism" should be held to necessarily be sacrosanct, after all.

Individualism is not necessary in order for a society to socially develop, nor for a society to value other life.


Given the choice between science and fantasy, it's amazing how many choose fantasy while discarding all known evidence, logic and reason. This is like discussing natural science at a NASCAR race.
 
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So prove it then.

I'm supposed to explain to you basic biology and physics? Do you have any concept of evolution, or are you a creationist/IDer?

What you fail to see is that you understanding science does not matter to me. Your ability to grasp concepts is not material to the debate, for those of us with sufficient education in natural science to see your ignorance.

If you want basic science lessons, go to a community college.
 
I'm supposed to explain to you basic biology and physics? Do you have any concept of evolution, or are you a creationist/IDer?

What you fail to understand is that you understanding science does not matter to me. Your ability to grasp concepts is not material to the debate, for those of us with sufficient education in natural science to see your ignorance.

:lol:

Obfuscate all you want. The challenge still stands.

Why is it "impossible," biologically or by the laws of physics, for a Eusocial species to attain intelligence?

What proof supports this assertion?

I'm waiting...
 
Obfuscate all you want.

The bottom line is that ones fantasy of evil aliens is merely a result of disappointment in oneself. Anyone that has experienced emotional and social growth in their life is aware of society's progress within themselves. Social development over time is self evident for most people. All of history testifies to it.

The challenge still stands.

Explaining basic science is not a challenge. I'm not overviewing textbook chapters just because someone on an internet forum is ignorant.

I'm waiting...

Try holding your breath.
 
....It's highly improbable in the limitless vastness of the universe that we humans stand alone," NASA administrator Charles Bolden said last week.

But Ham, president and CEO of Answers in Genesis and the Creation Museum in Petersburg, Ky., said we probably are alone. He wrote "earth was specially created," and the entire hunt for extraterrestrials is "really driven by man’s rebellion against God in a desperate attempt to supposedly prove evolution!"

If aliens do exist, however, Ham said even Jesus can't save them.



Ham does have a point...."if aliens do exist ...even Jesus can't save them."


But what if God and Jesus are aliens? If they're not one of us then how could they not be?


There could be aliens among us right now and we'd never know. Anyone see the movie "Under the Skin"?
 
The bottom line is that ones fantasy of evil aliens is merely a result of disappointment in oneself. Anyone that has experienced emotional and social growth in their life is aware of society's progress within themselves.

:lamo

In other words, you've basically made blind faith in "society" and "social progress" into some sort of half-cocked spiritual religion for yourself.

Good for you.

Social development over time is self evident for most people. All of history testifies to it.

Mmhm.

inmates.jpg


Explaining basic science is not a challenge. I'm not overviewing textbook chapters just because someone on an internet forum is ignorant.

In that case, I accept your concession. :shrug:
 
That is one possibility.

Another possibility is that the alien civilization is like an intelligent insect hive... highly cooperative internally but ruthless toward any outsiders.

It doesn't seem likely that a civilization with a "hive mind" would engage in interstellar traveling. A civilization with hive mentalities would most likely stall at a Type I civilization (which is not enough for interstellar travel). Why do I think this? Well, let's take some examples on our own planet: Ants have remained in the same basic shape during a period where most mammals, birds, fish and dinosaurs managed to evolve into everything from pack hunters to omnivores to carnivores and went extinct. Think of it this way: In the period where some dinosaurs transitioned into birds, ants changed in minute ways. So how would this translate into a larger/more intelligent species? Pretty much the same. You'd have a civilization that is practically unchanged and so focused on the survival of the species that a sizeable risk like interstellar travel would be borderline unthinkable.

First, you have the issue of what colonization or even attacking another civilization actually entails from a social perspective. A species that is sending out a colonizing/attacking force needs to be developed to the point where it can send a sizeable and expandable force. It needs to have resources to spare as well as well as population to spare. It would also need to have a defined social structure, system of writing and be either a type II or III civilization. It needs to have knowledge of mathematics as well as some sense of aesthetics. These are all qualities which take tens of thousands of years to develop.

Then (for them to be of a hive mind) individuals within the society need to have developed to the point where all the things which come attached with an advanced social structure and knowledge of mathematics have been discarded/ignored or skipped altogether. So you'd have a civilization that somehow gained the mathematical knowledge as well as social development to achieve interstellar travel and then skipped/ignored/discarded aesthetics, arts, economics, philosophy and religion. Does that sound likely? That a species achieved interstellar travel but is somehow immune to all of the little nuances which have existed in every civilization we know of? Of course not. So we can immediately discard the idea that a "hive mind" species colonizing the universe is likely.

Then, you have the "life" issue. It's pretty well established that species with any sort of intelligence tend to be restricted by finite lifetimes. Whether this is based on the observation of creatures from our planet or not, there is only so long a creature can live and/or be kept alive. Is it possible to keep a being alive for 10,000 years of interstellar travel? Doubtful. Tissue degradation, contamination, illness, ship maintenance, all would have to be taken into consideration. You'd need a small force just to keep the ships maintained for the immense amount of time it takes to get from one star to another. Then you'd need substinance and whatever gas they breathe in ample supply for that force. So just keeping a supporting cast through the trip would take immense amounts of resources.

In conclusion, not only is a colonizing group of aliens an unlikely possibility, it seems illogical for a civilization to spend resources on a trip that may result in the decimation of a percentage of its population as well as the loss of resources. I'm looking at this from a realistic perspective, not a sci-fi perspective.
 
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Nothing better than to stop looking outside for other intelligent life then agreeing that they all go to hell. Yes, stop looking for other evidence that works against religious, and focus nowhere else except dogma and group think. Lets stop, or better, turn back clock and stick to the medieval ages!
 
I'm not an optimist. I'm basing my assessment on reality, while you are basing your assessment on nothing. I'm a realist (making assessments based upon actual evidence) and
you're just making up fantasy.

All the evidence is on my side. Making up labels for me is not going to change that. Spew your fantasy all you want, but know that it's counter to all evidence.

Pretending that your assessment is equal to mine is intellectually dishonest. Concede the debate, join us in reality. Give up the Chicken Little costume, enough scaring ignorant children.




Great fantasy requires great minds, eh? :roll:
 
Great fantasy requires great minds, eh? :roll:

Cardinal is pretty sharp, he just finds the "killer aliens!!11!!" thing amusing. He's surely capable of understanding one position having all of the evidence, logic and reason, and the other being pure fantasy. And he understands the value of evidence (however incomplete) over pure speculation.

Gath? *snicker*
 
Once the predator-type aliens get around to us we probably won't be discussing the results on this forum, eh?

That's, of course, if they exist.
 
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