• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Teacher allegedly disciplined because her students' scores are too high

Dittohead not! said:
No one is fired for doing too good of a job, but they are fired for cheating.
Click to expand...

I can't really tell you how untrue this is in my line of work. I work with media/art directors/editors who don't really enjoy any new talent showing up and making them look mediocre. Most of the guys who have started the independent comic book/movie companies and photography firms and have become pretty famous ended up there because of a row with an editor/Hollywood exec/producer. When the artists at the bottom of the totem pole start getting the idea that they can tell better stories than the people who are in charge of reviewing performance, people get fired. It's a sad reality. We get paid decently but when some of us get too good for certain egos, we have two options - fly away and start our own outfits like I did or wait around for that office talk.
 
Last edited:
More on this story:

Coyle has also been accused of cheating in order to improve her students’ scores, as they did not represent the predicted distribution of varying grades. The teacher’s belief in her instructional approach is so strong that she is considering filing litigation against the school district. -
Click to expand...

Yet another possibility: This story did not make the local news at East Rockaway, at least, not that I could find anywhere. Could it be a made up story placed on the internet just to stir up controversy, a sort of cross between the Onion and a troll?
 
Dittohead not! said:
More on this story:



Yet another possibility: This story did not make the local news at East Rockaway, at least, not that I could find anywhere. Could it be a made up story placed on the internet just to stir up controversy, a sort of cross between the Onion and a troll?
Click to expand...

From the link in the original post:
The arbitrator cleared Coyle of wrongdoing on June 4. The teacher said that the school failed to properly investigate the allegations, not bothering to question a teacher's assistant who was present when the tests were administered and who disputed the accusations.
Click to expand...

Could be the Administrators lobbing this accusation to discredit the teacher.
 
Beaudreaux said:
It would not seem to be the fault of the kids, since they proved in her class that they can learn and want to learn.

If she can get her students to learn and do well in class, why can't the fifth grade teachers as well? Seems that if this story is true, which I haven't found anywhere else, that it is the teachers that are the problem. And, if not for what you stated above, we never would have known. So...
Click to expand...

I think part of the problem might actually be in how they are rating as well though. If they are comparing grades from one to another, and grading on a positive gain in grades of so much from one grade to the next, then that could be the real issue.

From what I'm reading here, this sounds like the problem. They only have one test and the students did very well on it, well then, even if they do very well in the next grade, and the tests show this, they still get a bad grade because the test scores are still near that high level already. I could be wrong here, but if this is the problem, then it shows a major issue with the way they are doing testing and rating teachers, which is on improvement in test grades rather than actual knowledge from one grade to the next.
 
sangha said:
It is if there is not "methodology" (I prefer the term "implementation") can guarantee against these kinds of circumventions. I don't think there is such an implementation, because we've seen this sort of thing before with "high stakes testing", which is profoundly entwined with this policy. It has encouraged some teachers, and schools, to tell their students the questions and the answers before the test..
Click to expand...

High stakes testing is revealing poor performance by the teachers in this case. The students performed well under a teacher working in the exact "high stakes testing" environment.

The fault is not in the "high stakes testing" it's in the low performing teachers.
 
sangha said:
"Let's rate teachers and punish the ones who do badly" they said

"It will be good for the students" they said
Click to expand...

Assuming that what the teacher is saying is true, then the problem lies with the 5th grade teachers not keeping up, not with her. Seems like you would prefer that the kids get held back so that the test scores for the next year look good. That's pretty messed up. We should be rewarding her and working with the rest of the teachers to emulate her success instead of trying to slow her down.
 
faithful_servant said:
Assuming that what the teacher is saying is true, then the problem lies with the 5th grade teachers not keeping up, not with her. Seems like you would prefer that the kids get held back so that the test scores for the next year look good. That's pretty messed up. We should be rewarding her and working with the rest of the teachers to emulate her success instead of trying to slow her down.
Click to expand...
That's a huge assumption.

If the kids were really doing that well in 4th. grade, then they'd also do well in 5th, most likely. Kids don't go from good readers to poor readers. No, it's much more likely that the test measuring their ability at the end of the 4th. grade was flawed in some way.

And, why is it that there are no stories about this teacher from the local news? Could it be a made up story?
 
Dittohead not! said:
That's a huge assumption.

If the kids were really doing that well in 4th. grade, then they'd also do well in 5th, most likely. Kids don't go from good readers to poor readers. No, it's much more likely that the test measuring their ability at the end of the 4th. grade was flawed in some way.

And, why is it that there are no stories about this teacher from the local news? Could it be a made up story?
Click to expand...

Consistently flawed in some way? And only this fourth grade?

Come on.
 
mac said:
Consistently flawed in some way? And only this fourth grade?

Come on.
Click to expand...
It's pretty easy to flaw the results of a standardized test. All it takes is an eraser and pencil, or perhaps a little coaching now and again.
 
Dittohead not! said:
It's pretty easy to flaw the results of a standardized test. All it takes is an eraser and pencil, or perhaps a little coaching now and again.
Click to expand...

So, you're claiming it's cheating?
 
mac said:
So, you're claiming it's cheating?
Click to expand...

I don't know, but it sounds like allegations of cheating to me. Why else would a teacher be removed from the classroom due high scores? That makes absolutely no sense at all.

The other possibility is that the entire story was fabricated. Since I can't find a word about it in the local news from there, that seems to be another possibility.
 
Dittohead not! said:
I don't know, but it sounds like allegations of cheating to me. Why else would a teacher be removed from the classroom due high scores? That makes absolutely no sense at all.
Click to expand...

maybe so they can get rid of her? Or is it everyone but her that has some ethics?

The other possibility is that the entire story was fabricated. Since I can't find a word about it in the local news from there, that seems to be another possibility.
Click to expand...

Well, if so, this is an exercise in what-ifs. But, if it was on the interweb, it must be true.
 
mac said:
maybe so they can get rid of her? Or is it everyone but her that has some ethics?



Well, if so, this is an exercise in what-ifs. But, if it was on the interweb, it must be true.
Click to expand...

Of course, it must be true, as nothing false is ever posted on the internet!
 
Assuming the OP's facts are correct, the problem seems to be this:
"The New York State Education Department's performance rating system is designed to reward instructors and schools when students show academic improvement from one grade to the next"

If the preceding teacher has already obtained an excellent performance from the students, there is no room for improvement in the next grade. It is wrong to punish the next teacher for having no improvement left to achieve. (i.e if a student is already getting all As there grades can not improve)
 
Hard Truth said:
Assuming the OP's facts are correct, the problem seems to be this:
"The New York State Education Department's performance rating system is designed to reward instructors and schools when students show academic improvement from one grade to the next"

If the preceding teacher has already obtained an excellent performance from the students, there is no room for improvement in the next grade. It is wrong to punish the next teacher for having no improvement left to achieve. (i.e if a student is already getting all As there grades can not improve)
Click to expand...

Could be, I'm not sure how it works in NY. Here in California, however, the big test all must worship is a criterion, not a norm, referenced test. The school and the teachers are graded on how many students pass at the end of the year, and not on how much improvement there has been.

If a teacher gets a class all performing at the "proficient" level, then passing them on to the next grade at that level should be pretty easy, as long as the test scores actually reflect their ability. What's difficult is getting a class that has a 10% pass rate, as you're still expected to have all of them being "proficient" at the end of the year.
 
Zyphlin said:
But this doesn't appear to be a case of the "bad one" being punished. This appears to be attempting to punish a "good one" because they're good.
Click to expand...

Well it's a strange twist.

By excelling she's making everyone else - who's still doing an 'okay job' mostly, I bet - to look bad.

Therefor - everyone else, in contrast, will look like they suck, when they don't.

It's like the apes and the bananas - just beat the ape that looks at the boxes with the bananas before it even climbs up to get it.
 
Beaudreaux said:
May be, but there's no evidence whatsoever of that. From the attorney for the teacher fired, it had to do with her not complying with her instruction to lower the scores of her students (insubordination).

Again, there's no evidence to point to anything else.

I do wish that either me or someone else could find another article about this so we could read another perspective.
Click to expand...

This could be a possibility. She may be a threat to the entire school system including the superintendent if they are put on a level 2 or 3 because of this policy. Just to make it clear, this is a threat to this teacher's superiors since they may have to pay a price for pushing the school to a high risk level. This has nothing to do with the union. If anything, the teacher union can help her. Also, this may be a case where cheating is suspected.
 
rabbitcaebannog said:
This could be a possibility. She may be a threat to the entire school system including the superintendent if they are put on a level 2 or 3 because of this policy. Just to make it clear, this is a threat to this teacher's superiors since they may have to pay a price for pushing the school to a high risk level. This has nothing to do with the union. If anything, the teacher union can help her. Also, this may be a case where cheating is suspected.
Click to expand...

I agree that at this point, there are too many "ifs" and "may be's" to know for sure.
 
Dittohead not! said:
Could be, I'm not sure how it works in NY. Here in California, however, the big test all must worship is a criterion, not a norm, referenced test. The school and the teachers are graded on how many students pass at the end of the year, and not on how much improvement there has been.

If a teacher gets a class all performing at the "proficient" level, then passing them on to the next grade at that level should be pretty easy, as long as the test scores actually reflect their ability. What's difficult is getting a class that has a 10% pass rate, as you're still expected to have all of them being "proficient" at the end of the year.
Click to expand...

In NYS, they do both. Students have to demonstrate proficiency and in addition, classes are measured by the progress that's been made.
 
Ockham said:
So the bottom line is: Teach your children to be mediocre. Well... that's about right.

Same with the Pasco County School District in Florida who feels the achievement of valedictorians and salutatorian are "unfair" to the other children.
Click to expand...

Years ago I spoke with a school board member about getting more funding for a particular program that was seriously underfunded (compared to similar schools) but over achieving. I was told that their intent was to keep all programs at about the same level. Then I was told that that particular program was ranked as being second best in the state year after year, and he asked me why I thought that they needed more funding. I told him "so it can be the BEST in the state", the guy just stared at me expressionless and then walked off without saying another word.
 
Beaudreaux said:
May be, but there's no evidence whatsoever of that. From the attorney for the teacher fired, it had to do with her not complying with her instruction to lower the scores of her students (insubordination).

Again, there's no evidence to point to anything else.

I do wish that either me or someone else could find another article about this so we could read another perspective.
Click to expand...

It seems to me that ordering a teacher to lower their test scores is just the same as ordering the teacher to distort test scores, which I would suggest is essentially cheating.
 
imagep said:
It seems to me that ordering a teacher to lower their test scores is just the same as ordering the teacher to distort test scores, which I would suggest is essentially cheating.
Click to expand...

Yes. It is cheating. But by whom? The teacher, or the school administration?
 
Beaudreaux said:
Yes. It is cheating. But by whom? The teacher, or the school administration?
Click to expand...

Good question.
Given the importance that is attributed to the mighty "test", I'd be surprised of there weren't a lot of cheating going on.
 
Beaudreaux said:
Yes. It is cheating. But by whom? The teacher, or the school administration?
Click to expand...

It's the school cheating by ordering the teacher to cheat. Disgusting and unacceptable.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom