• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Glenn Greenwald to publish list of U.S. citizens that NSA spied on

Someone that conflates government and country is not well informed. :peace

Separating government and nation might work with dictatorships, but not with democracies.
 
But is there some things that need to be kept secret?

By all means.

I understand that a military is necessary in this world, and that some secrets must be kept.

Trouble is we've gone to the far extreme of keeping everything secret.
 
Separating government and nation might work with dictatorships, but not with democracies.

Wishful thinking.

We have only the illusion of a democracy, however you wish to measure it.

Sad to report, but Utopia is not an option in human affairs.

Recall that George Washington compared government to fire--a useful servant but a fearsome master.
 
You seem like the kinda guy that would defend the rosenburgs.

Yes... because stealing vital information that allowed the Soviet Union to get the atomic bomb is EXACTLY THE SAME as information being revealed to us that our government is conducting generalized spying on us. :roll:

Got any more completely stupid strawmans for me to destroy in a single sentence? Or do you actually want to address what I said to you in the first place, namely:

Like what? Releasing exclusively to our so-called free press, watching them cater to government wishes & going to prison for exposing gross Constitutional violations?
 
But is there some things that need to be kept secret?

Yes there are. They should be kept to an abosolute minimum. What our government does though is classify virtually everything. That's not the way a transparent government is supposed to work.
 
That's delusional.

Perhaps you could demonstrate to me how we are actually a democracy?

I'm defining the notion as a system whereby the people control the government, even by way of elected representatives. That the government does what the people want it to do. Or that it stops doing things the people want it to stop doing.
 
Perhaps you could demonstrate to me how we are actually a democracy?

We elect officials. We have a constitution to protect everyone's rights, including minorities. We have human, civil, labor and environmental rights. We can bring suits against government offices. We can kick people out of office. We have a legit justice system.

I understand you're a Truther, and so you think the government is an evil entity and separate from the people, but that's delusional.

You're equating the US and Western nations with totalitarian dictatorships. This is, in effect, apologizing for them.
 
We elect officials. We have a constitution to protect everyone's rights, including minorities. We have human, civil, labor and environmental rights. We can bring suits against government offices. We can kick people out of office. We have a legit justice system.

I understand you're a Truther, and so you think the government is an evil entity and separate from the people, but that's delusional.

You're equating the US and Western nations with totalitarian dictatorships. This is, in effect, apologizing for them.

Do our elected officials create and enforce policies that benefit all the people, or just special interest groups? Do our elected officials engage in wars and police actions under cover of fraud? (Was Eisenhower hallucinating in his Farewell Address?)

When the legislature violates the Constitution with illegitimate acts such as the Unpatriot Act and the recent NDAA amendment, does the Judiciary defend the Constitution? Does the Executive Branch ever defend the document, or is it happy with the specious Unitary Executive concept?

If we can sue the government, why are there so few examples of it? Why was U.S. v. Reynolds decided against the widows and the Federal Tort Claim Act, in 1953, if your claim is accurate? 345US1

With the highest per capita rate of imprisonment in the entire world for the last 25 or 30 years, and with a situation in which common offenders are sentenced to obscene sentences for petty crimes and nobody at all is prosecuted for attacking the US Constitution, are you really sure you want to stand by your last? ;)
 
With the highest per capita rate of imprisonment in the entire world for the last 25 or 30 years,

Developing countries...

1. Do not have appropriate incarceration facilities.
2. Hide atrocities that serve as "justice".
3. Have far more corruption deciding if someone goes to prison.
4. Lack the necessary police force.
5. Allow and even promote street justice.

If you'd spent time in a developing country, you'd realize what a joke it is to compare the justice systems.
 
Developing countries...

1. Do not have appropriate incarceration facilities.
2. Hide atrocities that serve as "justice".
3. Have far more corruption deciding if someone goes to prison.
4. Lack the necessary police force.
5. Allow and even promote street justice.

Let's see, are we talking about developing countries, or a "democratic" incubator named the US of A?

:2razz:
 
Let's see, are we talking about developing countries, or a "democratic" incubator named the US of A?

:2razz:

Delusional perceptions of the US have no place in rational debate.

You are apologizing for totalitarian dictatorships.
 
Delusional perceptions of the US have no place in rational debate.

You are apologizing for totalitarian dictatorships.

I am expressing disgust at the government I once served. Disgust that widespread attacks on the document I swore to uphold are made almost daily by all 3 branches of the government who once wrote my paychecks. :peace

It's not pretty and I'm not happy pointing these things out, but I am in touch with reality, however bitter it might be.
 
I am expressing disgust at the government I once served.

In a delusional manner and, in the process, supporting totalitarian dictatorships.


I am in touch with reality, however bitter it might be.

Tell us more about the Truth.
 
Delusional perceptions of the US have no place in rational debate.

Irony_by_Elvis_Chupacabra-250x220.jpg


:thumbs:
 
In a delusional manner and, in the process, supporting totalitarian dictatorships.




Tell us more about the Truth.

Most likely sir, you cannot handle it. :peace
 
Yes... because stealing vital information that allowed the Soviet Union to get the atomic bomb is EXACTLY THE SAME as information being revealed to us that our government is conducting generalized spying on us. :roll:

Got any more completely stupid strawmans for me to destroy in a single sentence? Or do you actually want to address what I said to you in the first place, namely:
It is in many ways. Both believed the government was doing something evil/wrong. Both chose to take informantion and get it out. Both were traitors.
 
Do you apologize for and support totalitarian governments by falsely equating them with the US? Are you a Truther?

No & no. But do either one become true if one recognizes that the reality in their country doesn't exactly match up with the language routinely used by politicians or laws of the land? There is no other place on this planet that I'd rather be than here in the U.S. & my home state of Michigan but I identify, acknowledge & accept that things going on here are different than what I (and probably you) was taught in grade school, hear from the media/politicians on a daily basis & read in sanitized history books (I.e. they only tell the story of our triumphs without also mentioning everything else that is involved in our unique & colorful history.)
 
It is in many ways. Both believed the government was doing something evil/wrong. Both chose to take informantion and get it out. Both were traitors.

114.gif
 
No & no. But do either one become true if one recognizes that the reality in their country doesn't exactly match up with the language routinely used by politicians or laws of the land? There is no other place on this planet that I'd rather be than here in the U.S. & my home state of Michigan but I identify, acknowledge & accept that things going on here are different than what I (and probably you) was taught in grade school, hear from the media/politicians on a daily basis & read in sanitized history books (I.e. they only tell the story of our triumphs without also mentioning everything else that is involved in our unique & colorful history.)


Since things are not perfect, the US is not a democracy?
 
How? The circus they generated gives cover to those who would rather not see the problem solved. If Greenwald/Snowden had not gleefully made themselves the topic, the media attention would have been on those who should be taken to task and those who should be called upon to fix NSA. It's not now because of this giant media circus.

Not to be a contrarian, but I seriously doubt that the media would have taken anyone to task. The MSM has a very cozy relationship with the US government and generally wants to maintain access at all costs, even if it means sitting on stories as the NYT did.
 
Spare me the morality play bull**** about how the means justify the ends. You people are sadly misguided.

But then, doesn't that lead to the question: What justifies the means?
 
Considering that everyone hates the NSA, John Q. should be safe from retribution. Now if his name is Faisal Israel Mohammad, you may have a valid point. I for one would hate to see peoples killing Sikhs in convenience stores again.

Not necessarily. While individuals with Islamic backgrounds are more susceptible to public reaction, you have no idea how any person thought domestically-suspicious by the government may be treated by the populace.
 
Spare me the morality play bull**** about how the means justify the ends. You people are sadly misguided.

You are sadly misguided if you believe that there is any way 'within the law' to get things like this to change. It is in exactly that kind of situation that breaking the law is justified.
 
Back
Top Bottom