• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

The American Middle Class Is No Longer the World’s Richest

tres borrachos said:
How would voting for liberals help the middle class?

I thought the ACA gave everyone access to affordable healthcare?
Click to expand...

Canada's system is far more affordable!
 
American said:
I prefer to keep taxes as low as possible, and I think spending needs to be curbed.
Click to expand...

But you then posted an article talking about how a country that does the opposite is doing better than we are!
 
Deuce said:
But you then posted an article talking about how a country that does the opposite is doing better than we are!
Click to expand...

Spending cuts before tax increases. Tax increases are taken to lightly.
 
Mustachio said:
What you're ignoring is the fact that economic growth in the United States is stable, and is equal to or better than the other countries mentioned in this article. The US leads the world in income from manufacturing jobs. Well, that was true until 2011, when China topped us, but China has a slight advantage in terms of its gigantic population. Manufacturing has improved in recent years, as well. There were plenty of jobs lost due to outsourcing, but the money never stopped flowing. You are right, though, that the money from the manufacturing industry started increasingly flowing to rich people, executives, and the Koch Brothers.

Still, other countries - Canada is a good one to mention - has a growing middle class whose median income has exceeded the median income in the United States. Yet Canada's manufacturing industry isn't growing any faster than ours. Their manufacturing jobs have actually been decreasing.

So our manufacturing industry is getting larger, and Canada's is getting smaller. And yet their median income now exceeds ours. I believe your argument has been busted, sir.
Click to expand...

My argument has not busted. Not even scratched.

But your obviously slanted opinion is noted. Unfortunately for you, there are no figures to back your claim. California alone has lost over 30% of it's manufacturing jobs over the last 20 years. For example, where there were once 4 automobile assembly plants in the state, there is now only one, and Tesla hardly counts.

If you were to apply logic to your feelings, you would discover it is not possible for "rich people", management and the Koch Brothers to pay themselves enough money to account for the loss of good middle income jobs.

As I suggested, what happens when the topic of regulatory incrementalism is brought up, demagogues like yourself step in and start finger pointing to absurd culprits, without applying any real thought to resolving the issue.
 
Verax said:
Globalization has taken the manufacturing jobs and they aren't coming back. Rather than trying to emulate and compete with 3rd world economies by racing to the bottom we should focus on high technology, science, advancing our civilization to the next level. To do this we need heavy investment in higher education, particularly STEM.
Click to expand...

I don't share your opinion about manufacturing jobs not coming back. I have owned manufacturing businesses for over 35 years and I can tell you from experience offshoring production is a difficult and costly business. The picture one has of some kind of foreign sweatshop banging out cheap components by people making pennies a day is a false one, by and large.

The trick is trying to get this production back into the US in an affordable manner, while minimizing the regulatory barriers that have been set up by overstepping state and federal agencies.

I do completely agree with you about STEM. I am a major supporter of efforts to emphasize this area of education which has been grossly ignored. I go as far as to suggest government backed loans for college only be granted for students seeking degrees within those disciplines. I have 18 engineers in my employment, and I believe only three of them were born in the United States. That is ridiculous.

We are in the beginning stages of the next industrial revolution, a revolution involving energy, and it seems the government along with a multitude of regulatory agencies are doing everything they can to ensure the US does not participate in this revolution.
 
ocean515 said:
I don't share your opinion about manufacturing jobs not coming back. I have owned manufacturing businesses for over 35 years and I can tell you from experience offshoring production is a difficult and costly business. The picture one has of some kind of foreign sweatshop banging out cheap components by people making pennies a day is a false one, by and large.

The trick is trying to get this production back into the US in an affordable manner, while minimizing the regulatory barriers that have been set up by overstepping state and federal agencies.

I do completely agree with you about STEM. I am a major supporter of efforts to emphasize this area of education which has been grossly ignored. I go as far as to suggest government backed loans for college only be granted for students seeking degrees within those disciplines. I have 18 engineers in my employment, and I believe only three of them were born in the United States. That is ridiculous.

We are in the beginning stages of the next industrial revolution, a revolution involving energy, and it seems the government along with a multitude of regulatory agencies are doing everything they can to ensure the US does not participate in this revolution.
Click to expand...
I agree with everything except your last sentence. We are currently the world leaders in petroleum engineering. No one competes with us in efficient energy extraction.

Oh, and weapons...I think we can add aerospace and weapons design to the mix of things on which no one else can hold a candle to the US.

USA is a pragmatic nation, and although we are not going all-in on solar and nuclear research like some Euro nations, no one can extract from the ground what is readily available as efficiently and effectively as the US. The energy revolution is on, and it is being witnessed in Ohio, PA, CO, and ND, where trillions of BTU are being extracted in the form of nat gas and deeply buried oil. I expect we will see much more out in the deep sea before any need arises for "alternative" energy.
 
calamity said:
I agree with everything except your last sentence. We are currently the world leaders in petroleum engineering. No one competes with us in efficient energy extraction.

Oh, and weapons...I think we can add aerospace and weapons design to the mix of things on which no one else can hold a candle to the US.

USA is a pragmatic nation, and although we are not going all-in on solar and nuclear research like some Euro nations, no one can extract from the ground what is readily available as efficiently and effectively as the US. The energy revolution is on, and it is being witnessed in Ohio, PA, CO, and ND, where trillions of BTU are being extracted in the form of nat gas and deeply buried oil. I expect we will see much more out in the deep sea before any need arises for "alternative" energy.
Click to expand...

This is all true. However, what is also true is the massive changes coming to the distribution and use of energy. This would include in both home and business. This would include retrofitting and upgrading. Roadways and other means of transportation are prime for upgrades as well.

The challenge is how the government allows for these areas of opportunity to be addressed by the business community. If, for example, it goes the way it has with the auto industry, we will continue to shift production out of country in order to keep final price targets in line with what the public is willing to pay.
 
ocean515 said:
This is all true. However, what is also true is the massive changes coming to the distribution and use of energy. This would include in both home and business. This would include retrofitting and upgrading. Roadways and other means of transportation are prime for upgrades as well.

The challenge is how the government allows for these areas of opportunity to be addressed by the business community. If, for example, it goes the way it has with the auto industry, we will continue to shift production out of country in order to keep final price targets in line with what the public is willing to pay.
Click to expand...
There is no question about it. Our lack of infrastructural investment here is a disgrace. We've all seen a nation which used to pride itself on community reinvestment shift to become a short term gain, minimum taxation fiefdom of gated wealthy communities and crumbling inner cites. Meanwhile the countries in Europe and Asia have invested in high speed trains, fiber optic internet and built cities that are not only state of the art but actually art.
shanghai.jpg
 
ocean515 said:
If, for example, it goes the way it has with the auto industry, we will continue to shift production out of country in order to keep final price targets in line with what the public is willing to pay.
Click to expand...

Therein lies the rub. For example, in CA, the ex-governor decided to save tax money, he would outsource work on the Golden Gate Bridge. That went to China and while slave labor wages were paid to the workers, we got a cheap bridge in return. That bridge could have been built by Americans. Even if labor was more expensive, that money would have went right back into our economy. Instead it went overseas. We lost big time because of this tax craze mentality.
 
ocean515 said:
These conclusions are absurd and completely ignore the primary basis for the changes. At the heart of the matter is the dramatic loss in manufacturing jobs in the United States. Until we address this fact with honest conversations and actions, the transition to servicing other countries products will continue.

The first place to start, which continues to be ignored, is the intense regulatory environment we ask small business to operate in. What typically happens is the demagogues step in and start a finger pointing session that includes words like greed and exploitation, with massive doses of "shipping jobs overseas" thrown in. In response to honest hardworking businesspeople seeking relief we get narratives from the regulators that suggest those seeking help want a business environment void of any regulation at all. Oh what a barren landscape they paint! Blade Runner gone wild.

The bottom line is, it is impossible to create middle class wealth by earning a portion of what is charged per hour to process paperwork, or fix a computer. Until we can once again generate good wages across a broad line of manufactured goods, it will be nothing but meaningless words, empty promises, and pointless accusations.

The rich will always be rich, Dude.
Click to expand...

While regulations and taxes are factors, the simple fact is that one can get 32 semi skilled workers for 14hrs for what one minimum wage worker gets for eight here.

That is the draw. I don't see how even no taxes or regulations could possibly counter that differential.

I have never read anything that even begins to challenge this simple fact.

Until Americans can afford to accept $2/day, the middle class will continue to dissolve.
 
Verax said:
Globalization has taken the manufacturing jobs and they aren't coming back. Rather than trying to emulate and compete with 3rd world economies by racing to the bottom we should focus on high technology, science, advancing our civilization to the next level. To do this we need heavy investment in higher education, particularly STEM.
Click to expand...

Not "taken", deliberately exported by the US.

Remember the Clinton era support for "globilization"?

Now you have it,. say thanks Billary.
 
HenryChinaski said:
You want zero social programs and the upper crust to pay zero taxes.
Click to expand...

Direct taxes allow for picking and chosing who pays and who doesn't. But your extremes are from your own mind, not mine.
 
calamity said:
There is no question about it. Our lack of infrastructural investment here is a disgrace. We've all seen a nation which used to pride itself on community reinvestment shift to become a short term gain, minimum taxation fiefdom of gated wealthy communities and crumbling inner cites. Meanwhile the countries in Europe and Asia have invested in high speed trains, fiber optic internet and built cities that are not only state of the art but actually art.
shanghai.jpg
Click to expand...

Our tax base is too narrow, and the business climate regulatory agencies have created has limited resources and solutions. Our country is too focused on cushions, and not focused enough on ladders.
 
ocean515 said:
This is all true. However, what is also true is the massive changes coming to the distribution and use of energy. This would include in both home and business. This would include retrofitting and upgrading. Roadways and other means of transportation are prime for upgrades as well.

The challenge is how the government allows for these areas of opportunity to be addressed by the business community. If, for example, it goes the way it has with the auto industry, we will continue to shift production out of country in order to keep final price targets in line with what the public is willing to pay.
Click to expand...

Ocean, if we end up paying $8 a gallon for fuel for cars, people will pay it! Oh, we'll all be totally PO'd about it, and we'll scream and holler, but we will pay it, because we love the mobility that cars give us. As more energy efficient cars come to market, like the electric cars did, and if longer distances between recharges become a reality, and if they don't look totally dorky, and are reasonably priced, people will buy them. It seems to me that a lot of jobs could be created just at the recharging stations alone. I think it will happen soon, too, because riding a bike just isn't for everyone. If you have a 40 mile commute from home to your job, and since snow-covered roads are a hazard in the Northern part of the Country, you aren't going to think about riding a bike for six months out of the year.

Greetings, ocean515. :2wave:
 
rabbitcaebannog said:
Therein lies the rub. For example, in CA, the ex-governor decided to save tax money, he would outsource work on the Golden Gate Bridge. That went to China and while slave labor wages were paid to the workers, we got a cheap bridge in return. That bridge could have been built by Americans. Even if labor was more expensive, that money would have went right back into our economy. Instead it went overseas. We lost big time because of this tax craze mentality.
Click to expand...

There are many reasons products are procured from overseas. The ex-governor had nothing to do with that. He also had nothing to with trying to turn California's fortunes around. When business in penalized, as it has been by Progressives who run California, they leave the state. There is no other reason to explain how a state with so much going for it has seen such a tremendous loss of manufacturing jobs over the last few decades.
 
Deuce said:
But you then posted an article talking about how a country that does the opposite is doing better than we are!
Click to expand...

In truth, Canada's tax rate is not that much larger than the US, and when the cost of insurance premiums are removed, Canadians are far better off.

As well, there is constant cost cutting, the largest of which was in the late 90's where the social welfare system was gutted along with defense et al, to eliminate the deficit and reduce the debt.....which is what propelled us through the 08' crash.

There ARE low taxes in Canada and efficiencies.

I would say that one of the largest issues is the waste in the US system, it's governance, and in education and medical care. Once you step out of the on going political war, you see just how in-efficient IS Obamacare; a burden on the middle class. And when you see that, you see that everything Obama has done has been a burden on the middle class, beginning with hios "tax the rich" idea a year ago, where taxes went up the most on the middle class.


That's the cause imo, as each and every politicial that comes along plays to the optics, either cutting taxes for "trickle down" or raising them to feed the poor, and always the middle class takes in bending over.

Now for the real news...in Canada the leading political issue is NOT health care, not war, not transportraion, nor education...but improving the middle class....

We won't be second long
 
ocean515 said:
My argument has not busted. Not even scratched.

But your obviously slanted opinion is noted. Unfortunately for you, there are no figures to back your claim. California alone has lost over 30% of it's manufacturing jobs over the last 20 years. For example, where there were once 4 automobile assembly plants in the state, there is now only one, and Tesla hardly counts.

If you were to apply logic to your feelings, you would discover it is not possible for "rich people", management and the Koch Brothers to pay themselves enough money to account for the loss of good middle income jobs.

As I suggested, what happens when the topic of regulatory incrementalism is brought up, demagogues like yourself step in and start finger pointing to absurd culprits, without applying any real thought to resolving the issue.
Click to expand...

Stockholder dividends.

It is often overlooked that ita not just the money the wealthy own but also that which they CONTROL that is an issue.

Everybody's retirement money is the money used to make much of the uber rich's money.

They have all our eggs in their basket. Their own eggs are kept in different baskets, so when the basket falls ots only OTHER people's money that is lost.
 
Power and wealth among nations is cyclical. No doubt America is on its way out and China will rule the roost in the future. We lag behind many countries in education and still have wretched poverty and hunger.
 
ocean515 said:
Our tax base is too narrow, and the business climate regulatory agencies have created has limited resources and solutions. Our country is too focused on cushions, and not focused enough on ladders.
Click to expand...
It's a problem moving forward. I work with both America and Foreign automotive manufacturing companies. It's obvious which ones reinvest for the future and which ones pull maximum possible money out of the business to pay bonuses for executives and dividends for investors.
 
What if...? said:
While regulations and taxes are factors, the simple fact is that one can get 32 semi skilled workers for 14hrs for what one minimum wage worker gets for eight here.

That is the draw. I don't see how even no taxes or regulations could possibly counter that differential.

I have never read anything that even begins to challenge this simple fact.

Until Americans can afford to accept $2/day, the middle class will continue to dissolve.
Click to expand...

Labor is important, but is only a percentage of the cost of finished goods. The issue many times comes down to risk, and ability to produce quickly.

For example I purchase a specific kind of sub-assembly from China. I have to purchase that assembly in groups of no less than 100 pieces. It's a pain. It's a pain to deal with a supplier on the other side of the world. It's a pain to deal with quality issues that require attention from the other side of the world. I could go on.

On the other hand, I can submit a design request for those sub-assemblies, and they can respond very quickly, ratcheting up production quickly to meet my demand. Here, I would have to expand my facilities, submit an EIR to the local government prior to being granted a right to do so. I would then have to submit a plan to address increased energy use to the various authorities so I can determine my increase industrial carbon footprint, and plan for potential offsets that may be required should my targets be off down the road. I could go on and on.

The bottom line is the business climate in the United States caused by the multitude of state and local regulatory agencies is far more to blame than the targets the left loves to focus on.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom