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CIA's 'Harsh Interrogations' Exceeded Legal Authority, Report Finds

As a long time member of the Armed Forces, the Geneva Convention was a security blanket that I always carried when I was in/over hostile territory. We (the USA) ignored it, thus opening the door for any other hostile force to ignore it in the event that I had been captured.
 
Chiefgator said:
As a long time member of the Armed Forces, the Geneva Convention was a security blanket that I always carried when I was in/over hostile territory. We (the USA) ignored it, thus opening the door for any other hostile force to ignore it in the event that I had been captured.
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No opponent of the US has observed the Geneva Conventions since (irony of ironies) certain units of the Wehrmacht and Luftwaffe in WW2. You lost nothing.:peace
 
Fenton said:
The concept of "Presumption of Innocence" is not even codified in the text of our Constitution.

The "innocent until proven guilty " concept comes from English Jurisprudence.

Its not even a " American concept " in the sense that we got it from English common law.

And Finally, your'e NOT innocent until proven guilty IF you did it. Your are guilty .

TRUE innocence until proven guilty means you couldn't be, at your arraignment, be held until your trial.
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The American system of justice adopted the common law concept of innocent until proven guilty. Without it, guilty until proven innocent would likely be the doctrine, one used by totalitarian governments. Without it, there is no such thing as due process, which BTW is part of our Constitution.
 
Jack Hays said:
I have suggested reticence now so you won't be embarrassed later.:peace
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Please... Don't hold back on my account.

Many blacks were lynched on flimsy or downright conjured evidence. How many "terrorists" got the same treatment?
 
apdst said:
No, the topic is torturing known terrorists. All terrorists are guilty, otherwise they wouldnt be terrorists.
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Actually the topic is "CIA's 'Harsh Interrogations' Exceeded Legal Authority, Report Finds". No one is a "known terrorist" unless and until proven to be one by a valid court. You have that a$$backwards. In either case, torturing those who are found guilty of committing crimes is not an American ideology, it is the domain of the worst kind of authoritarian governments.
 
Hard Truth said:
I have been a member of Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch and the ACLU for decades because I and the other members of those groups do not tolerate torture and we are willing to put money and effort behind our principals.
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Yeah, I know that at least two of those organizations shine light on bad things, but I was referring, specifically, to this forum/thread. Sorry for the lack of clarity.
 
Bob0627 said:
Actually the topic is "CIA's 'Harsh Interrogations' Exceeded Legal Authority, Report Finds". No one is a "known terrorist" unless and until proven to be one by a valid court. You have that a$$backwards. In either case, torturing those who are found guilty of committing crimes is not an American ideology, it is the domain of the worst kind of authoritarian governments.
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UBL wasn't a known terrorist?
 
Bob0627 said:
Actually the topic is "CIA's 'Harsh Interrogations' Exceeded Legal Authority, Report Finds". No one is a "known terrorist" unless and until proven to be one by a valid court. You have that a$$backwards. In either case, torturing those who are found guilty of committing crimes is not an American ideology, it is the domain of the worst kind of authoritarian governments.
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Fully agree with your last sentence.

In light of that statement, your support of torture on suspicion of terrorism is astounding to me.
 
Henry David said:
Your point is valid, but the outrage comes from the hypocrisy involved, at least as much as against the crimes themselves. The US lectures the rest of the world about human rights violations, imposes sanctions and otherwise pounds its chest, when the reality is that the US had the best organized torture system that the world has ever seen. Subjects being flown here and there in Gulfstreams is pretty damn sophisticated IMO. Broad daylight captures on the streets of Italy is pretty bold, eh?
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And the only reason why that happened was because of 9/11. The U.S. had its nose broken on that day. The prevention of another attack became paramount regardless of human rights. The American people were shocked beyond belief and if there was another attack… it would not have been good, particularly if it was revealed that our military had individuals in custody that had pertinent information and we didn't get it from them.
 
"You cannot qualify war in harsher terms than I will. War is cruelty, and you cannot refine it; and those who brought war into our country deserve all the curses and maledictions a people can pour out. . . . "
--W.T. Sherman:peace
 
Jango said:
And the only reason why that happened was because of 9/11. The U.S. had its nose broken on that day. The prevention of another attack became paramount regardless of human rights. The American people were shocked beyond belief and if there was another attack… it would not have been good, particularly if it was revealed that our military had individuals in custody that had pertinent information and we didn't get it from them.
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Your description of what happened is accurate, but it is not a good enough excuse for many of the things we did. Our nation's anger made us act wrongly and irrationally and forget our principals. It may have felt good at the time, but it was a mistake that had negative consequences and will probably have more in the future.
 
Hard Truth said:
Your description of what happened is accurate, but it is not a good enough excuse for many of the things we did. Our nation's anger made us act wrongly and irrationally and forget our principals. It may have felt good at the time, but it was a mistake that had negative consequences and will probably have more in the future.
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The US acted properly and effectively.:peace
 
ecofarm said:
Torture always works when done for verifiable information, as opposed to confession.
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NOTHING always works.

Torture is for the 'intellectually challenged' and/or cowards.

If the only way America can survive is by torturing people...then let it die.
 
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Hard Truth said:
Your description of what happened is accurate, but it is not a good enough excuse for many of the things we did. Our nation's anger made us act wrongly and irrationally and forget our principals. It may have felt good at the time, but it was a mistake that had negative consequences and will probably have more in the future.
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Undoubtedly and similar to the repercussions the Russian government will feel as a result of their security forces' actions in Dagestan.

The part about our principles is like this: there is a stated agenda/goal/policy/principle that everyone hears from officials and the media and then there is the real agenda/goal/policy/principle that is created in settings like the National Security Council. This should be obvious to anyone familiar with U.S. History - the actions taken differing with the rhetoric given.
 
DA60 said:
NOTHING always works.

Torture is for the 'intellectually challenged' and/or cowards.

If the only way America can survive is by torturing people...then let it die.
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This assertion is derived from your extensive counterterrorism experience?:peace

And if the US were to fail in war and cease to exist, you would like even less what would come after.
 
Jack Hays said:
This assertion is derived from your extensive counterterrorism experience?:peace
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From my experience and my morality.

Not good enough for you...I really don't much care.

Anyone that supports torture is not worth wasting my time in this thread on.


Good day.
 
DA60 said:
From my experience and my morality.

Not good enough for you...I really don't much care.

Anyone that supports torture is not worth wasting my time in this thread on.


Good day.
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A government at war fails in its duty if it does not use every tool at its disposal to secure victory. You owe your comfortable life to men who upheld that principle.:peace
 
ecofarm said:
Torture always works when done for verifiable information, as opposed to confession.
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1) Torture= Being humiliated in your underwear by having to form a human pyramid.

2) Marine Corps Recruit Training= Having to go outside at 2 in the morning in your underwear and forced to PT in a sandbox for a half hour, simply because the DI wants to have some fun.



1) Torture= Sleep Deprevation, Food Deprevation, Dogs barking at them, Koran flushed down the toilet, female soldier humiliating them

2) Marine Corps Recruit Trainin= Food depravation, sleep depravation, 4 grown men barking at you all the time, foot locker thrown out the window, Drill Instructors humiliating you, having to scrub brush the deck with your toothbrush.



1) Torture= Can't call a lawyer, can't contact a loved one, hate the American government, but food, shelter, and medical care are covered. Allowed to worship as they want.

2) Marine Corps Recruit Training= Can't make phone calls home, can't have visitors, can't talk to anyone, sometimes can't go to worship service, hate the Drill Instructors, but food, shelter, and medical care are covered.



1) Torture= Sometimes they die

2) Marine Corps Recruit Training= Ditto
 
Jack Hays said:
A government at war fails in its duty if it does not use every tool at its disposal to secure victory. You owe your comfortable life to men who upheld that principle.:peace
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LOL

Blah, blah, blah...save the nationalistic rhetoric for someone that actually buys it.

Soldiering can be the ultimate honorable profession BUT any soldier that resorts to torture I want no part of.

I am not wasting one more second on you in this thread...your attitude and disregard for human rights whenever it suits you disgusts me.

We are done here.


Good day.
 
DA60 said:
LOL

Blah, blah, blah...save the nationalistic rhetoric for someone that actually buys it.

Soldiering can be the ultimate honorable profession BUT any soldier that resorts to torture I want no part of.

I am not wasting one more second on you in this thread...your attitude and disregard for human rights whenever it suits you disgusts me.

We are done here.


Good day.
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Your cowardice is showing. Speaking of soldiering, here's a soldier's view.

"You cannot qualify war in harsher terms than I will. War is cruelty, and you cannot refine it; and those who brought war into our country deserve all the curses and maledictions a people can pour out. . . . "
--W.T. Sherman:peace

And my posts have nothing to do with nationalism, only the practical business of war-making.
 
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