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N.C. just found thousands of felony-level voter fraud cases

vasuderatorrent said:
It's probably because democrats don't care about voter fraud.

It would be natural to accuse the other side of being the perpetrator. Wouldn't you think? I guess the question you need to ask is, "Why aren't democrats complaining about voter fraud thus assuming Republicans are the perpetrators?
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Maybe you should watch MSNBC and read sources other than those approved of by the right; if you did you might discover that Dems do care about voter fraud
Republicans Admit “Voter ID” Is Designed to Steal Elections | Democratic Governors Association (DGA)

Thom Hartmann: There Has Not Been a Legitimately Elected Republican President Since Dwight Eisenhower

another "Lame Stream Media" outlet, the Los Angeles Times had a story back in 2012 about a few problems with Republican voter registration forms
WASHINGTON — Election officials in at least 11 Florida counties have uncovered potentially fraudulent voter registration forms submitted on behalf of the state GOP, a debacle that has punctured a hole in the Republican National Committee's get-out-the-vote operation less than six weeks before election day.

By Friday, elections supervisors had found dozens of forms turned in by the party that had wrong birthdays or spellings of names that didn't match signatures. In other cases, multiple forms were filled out in the same handwriting. One voter in Palm Beach County was registered to an address that is a Land Rover dealership.

"It was that flagrant," said Ann W. Bodenstein, the elections supervisor in Santa Rosa County, where officials found 100 problematic applications — including one for a dead voter. "In no way did they look genuine."

The controversy comes at an odd time for the GOP. Republican lawmakers across the country have proposed or enacted tough voter ID laws, arguing the legislation is needed to combat voter fraud.
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You can't have it both ways. You said this:

Somerville said:
Why do so many assume that every single instance of voter fraud is committed by a person who voted for a Democratic candidate?
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and now you are saying this:

Somerville said:
Maybe you should watch MSNBC and read sources other than those approved of by the right; if you did you might discover that Dems do care about voter fraud
Republicans Admit “Voter ID” Is Designed to Steal Elections | Democratic Governors Association (DGA)

Thom Hartmann: There Has Not Been a Legitimately Elected Republican President Since Dwight Eisenhower

another "Lame Stream Media" outlet, the Los Angeles Times had a story back in 2012 about a few problems with Republican voter registration forms
Click to expand...

People either are complaining about Republicans committing voter fraud or they are not. Is it Doctor Jekyl or Mr. Hyde?
 
vasuderatorrent said:
It's probably because democrats don't care about voter fraud.

It would be natural to accuse the other side of being the perpetrator. Wouldn't you think? I guess the question you need to ask is, "Why aren't democrats complaining about voter fraud thus assuming Republicans are the perpetrators?
Click to expand...

vasuderatorrent said:
You can't have it both ways. You said this:
Originally Posted by Somerville View Post
Why do so many assume that every single instance of voter fraud is committed by a person who voted for a Democratic candidate?
Click to expand...

and now you are saying this:
Originally Posted by Somerville View Post
Maybe you should watch MSNBC and read sources other than those approved of by the right; if you did you might discover that Dems do care about voter fraud
Republicans Admit “Voter ID” Is Designed to Steal Elections | Democratic Governors Association (DGA)

Thom Hartmann: There Has Not Been a Legitimately Elected Republican President Since Dwight Eisenhower

another "Lame Stream Media" outlet, the Los Angeles Times had a story back in 2012 about a few problems with Republican voter registration forms
Click to expand...



People either are complaining about Republicans committing voter fraud or they are not. Is it Doctor Jekyl or Mr. Hyde?
Click to expand...

You apparently are incapable of reading the words I have posted, if you thought you had a valid response to my earlier posts. First and most telling is my use of the words "every single instance", which for the literate would indicate I was attempting to inform those who think otherwise, impossible though the task may be, that even in the cases where voter fraud has been show to have occurred it was not always a Democrat who committed the crime.

You were the one who stated Dems don't care about voter fraud and your response to my providing an answer to your fallacious claim is somewhat incoherent.
 
Somerville said:
You apparently are incapable of reading the words I have posted, if you thought you had a valid response to my earlier posts. First and most telling is my use of the words "every single instance", which for the literate would indicate I was attempting to inform those who think otherwise, impossible though the task may be, that even in the cases where voter fraud has been show to have occurred it was not always a Democrat who committed the crime.

You were the one who stated Dems don't care about voter fraud and your response to my providing an answer to your fallacious claim is somewhat incoherent.
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Oh. Are you talking about people who claim that every single instance of voter fraud is committed by Democrats? Those people don't exist. Can we really debate fairy tales with validity?
 
Empirica said:
Exactly where did you ever hear someone on the Right suggest that left-wing voter fraud was a "conspiracy"?

I'm sorry Glen, but that is one of the most ignorant claims I've ever heard__Seriously dude! :giggle1:
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Then you've never Googled "Democrat voter fraud conspiracy". Try that sometime.
 
Deuce said:
Add a voter ID law in a state that just happens to not have a single full-time DMV in the areas with the highest black population.
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This might be a good argument if there weren't also white neighborhoods without "full-time DMVs"_
and
I would assume the Democrat Party dominates the areas of any state with "the highest black population" and would fill those "DMV" voids before they would risk losing those black votes_

Somerville said:
Why do so many assume that every single instance of voter fraud is committed by a person who voted for a Democratic candidate?
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By taking into account which political party supports Voter ID and which political party opposes it_

This ain't exactly rocket surgery mister peabody_ :giggle1:

vasuderatorrent said:
It's based on stats and stereotypes. Fewer blacks have jobs or cars than whites. There are lots of black people that don't have a driver's license and don't really need it for anything. Blacks are statistically poorer than other races. They don't have the $25 necessary to get a state issued ID card. Black people are also more likely to vote than other races of people.

There are fewer whites in this situation. It's not a solid argument but it is a sensible way to discuss the issue. North Carolina actually gave credibility to these arguments by allowing people to get a state issued ID card for free as a government service and have even offered transportation to take people to the DMV to get an ID.

Yes. This is equally discriminatory to poor whites too but blacks are disproportionately effected by these difficulties. Does that make sense? If you are white and have a driver's license then you will probably be unable to understand the predicament. If you are white, don't have an ID card, don't have a driver's license and don't vote then you won't understand either.
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So therefore; the only reason for supporting Voter ID must be "racism" rather than actual concerns for "voter fraud"?!

This is 21st Century America with elected black representatives from both major parties; including POTUS_

Sorry girls and boys but I have a bit of a problem buying into; "I support Voter ID because I hate black people"!

Glen Contrarian said:
Then you've never Googled "Democrat voter fraud conspiracy". Try that sometime.
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And you believe I will find evidence that the vast majority of right-wingers believe in a "left-wing voter fraud conspiracy" rather than simply some minor fringe element of it?!

FYI, you can find something no matter what you google__Try googling Toro De Caca if you don't believe me!
 
Empirica said:
This is 21st Century America with elected black representatives from both major parties; including POTUS_

Sorry girls and boys but I have a bit of a problem buying into; "I support Voter ID because I hate black people"!
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This is only going to be a problem in the south where there has been a history of civil rights violations. Most southern states and many of their county governments are still under the jurisdiction of the Department of Justice in regards to making changes to any type of issue relating to voting.

The accusers don't really have to have a good case when making the accusation of voting rights violation when in certain locations. North Carolina is one of those certain locations. The North Carolina legislature had to change their original voter ID laws because of this issue. I think it is fair considering the history. Racism still exist in North Carolina. Most legislators are very old white people that lived in a time when there was a colored water fountain and a white's only water fountain. This is foreign to me and many people my age but it really wasn't that long ago.

Things are much different on the surface but the people are the same. The courts have to steer more to the safe side. It is not unreasonable to avoid the appearance of evil altogether. I think North Carolina has it straightened out by now and is in compliance with the Voting Rights Act.

Words from that article said:
In June, a 5-4 United States Supreme Court majority struck down Section 4 of the Voting Rights Act, a provision that required jurisdictions with extensive histories of discriminating against minorities -- including eight states in the South and parts of other states -- to get “preclearance” from the DOJ before making changes to their voting policies.

Soon after the decision came down, North Carolina and a number of other Southern states announced plans to move ahead with restrictive voter policies that could not pass muster under the original law. Critics accused the states of trying to disenfranchise black and Latino voters, and Attorney General Eric Holder promised that the DOJ’s lawyers would turn to whatever tools were still available to “stand against discrimination wherever it is found.”

One such tool could be Section 3, a relatively obscure provision of the Voting Rights Act that the Supreme Court justices have left intact, at least for now. Under Section 3, states and local governments can still be forced to clear their election changes with the federal government -- but only if a federal court can prove that those jurisdictions deliberately engaged in racial discrimination against voters.

That could be tough. “There isn't usually the kind of traditional ‘we don't like those people’ kinds of language in the record these days,” said Kareem Crayton, a law professor at the University of North Carolina School of Law. “Legislatures are mostly too smart for that, unless they get caught on tape -- which does happen.”
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North Carolina Voting Laws Could Hinge On Evidence Of Racism
 
Empirica said:
So therefore; the only reason for supporting Voter ID must be "racism" rather than actual concerns for "voter fraud"?!
Click to expand...

Your logic is impeccable for someone under the age of 50. Do you know how many times I have heard an old southern person say, "I am not racist but" ? I have heard it a lot. That tells me that they are racists as all get out but they know it's socially unacceptable.

No! Racism isn't the only reason to support Voter ID laws. If you are listening to a 70 year old white person that was born and raised in North Carolina that could be the only reason they like the Voter ID laws. Racism is not dead in our country. Surely you know at least one person over the age of 50.

This issue aside: It is not uncommon when dealing with controversial topics to disguise your motivations. Would you disagree?
 
Just checking back. Any proof of widespread voter fraud yet?
 
mak2 said:
Just checking back. Any proof of widespread voter fraud yet?
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The OP has some examples but I don't think there have been any arrests. Is that what you meant?

I think we are SOL for past voter fraud violations. All we can do is try to prevent it in the future. It seems like they would be able to make at least one case.

I wonder what the punishment is for committing voter fraud.
 
Yes, you know, proof. I think widespread voter fraud is another myth made up by the right to stir up their base and to explain away their election losses. I think having to have an ID is fine, the default postion should be to allow the vote though. THen if it is fraudulent, arrest them and charge them with a felony. Voter fraud is a felony and has prison time.
vasuderatorrent said:
The OP has some examples but I don't think there have been any arrests. Is that what you meant?

I think we are SOL for past voter fraud violations. All we can do is try to prevent it in the future. It seems like they would be able to make at least one case.

I wonder what the punishment is for committing voter fraud.
Click to expand...
 
mak2 said:
Yes, you know, proof. I think widespread voter fraud is another myth made up by the right to stir up their base and to explain away their election losses. I think having to have an ID is fine, the default postion should be to allow the vote though. THen if it is fraudulent, arrest them and charge them with a felony. Voter fraud is a felony and has prison time.
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Voter fraud is hard to prove, nearly impossible without requiring a valid, state issued, photo ID bearing the name and address matching a prior voter registration. Even with that system in place, it is possible to register and vote in multiple locations unless they crosscheck with each other.

44,000 voters registered in both Va. and Md., group finds - DC News FOX 5 DC WTTG
 
vasuderatorrent said:
Your logic is impeccable for someone under the age of 50.
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I'm actually under the age of 30 Vasu_
and
My "impeccable logic" is the result of an abundance of common sense and my Ayn Rand style of objectivism_

Do you know how many times I have heard an old southern person say, "I am not racist but" ? I have heard it a lot. That tells me that they are racists as all get out but they know it's socially unacceptable.

No! Racism isn't the only reason to support Voter ID laws. If you are listening to a 70 year old white person that was born and raised in North Carolina that could be the only reason they like the Voter ID laws. Racism is not dead in our country. Surely you know at least one person over the age of 50.
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There will always be racist individuals of every color although this form of racism is isolated and inconsequential_

The only time that "racism" is a problem is when it is instituted by government and condoned by society_

This issue aside: It is not uncommon when dealing with controversial topics to disguise your motivations. Would you disagree?
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I would not disagree but this tactic is much more common to the far left ideologies_

It is also not uncommon for the left to play the race card on every single racial issue with conflicting opinions_

And Voter ID is just one of many examples of this extremely common occurrence_

The accusation of "racism" has been made so often, I'm surprised anyone still takes it seriously_
 
How do you "prove" voter fraud in areas that don't require ID? It's almost like proving a negative.

Let's say I own a liquor store. Business is slow, so I decide to stop asking for proof of age from my customers.
Word gets out. Business is booming. Sure, my clientele looks a bit younger, but what they hay? I'm profiting.

So when the powers-that-be ask me how many minors I've served, I can honestly say none. My customers said they were over 21.
They can't prove me wrong, because there isn't any evidence. I didn't ask for ID, I took people at their word.
Maybe they catch one or two minors buying alcohol from my store, but that doesn't prove other minors bought alcohol from my store, does it?
Or does it?

What baffles me are the people who insist that we really don't need fair and honest elections.
Methinks they dost protest too much.
 
Empirica said:
The accusation of "racism" has been made so often, I'm surprised anyone still takes it seriously_
Click to expand...

In day to day conversations it isn't taken seriously.

This is about the history of particular areas in our country where the federal government had to get involved because black people were being discriminated against. You didn't see it. I didn't see it. There are still people alive who did see that happen.

I'm sure you know the history behind this but you are choosing to ignore it. I'll just pretend as if you don't know.

Local governments in some of the southern states required voters to pass a reading test in order to vote. Come to find out the motivation was to keep black people from voting rather than keeping illiterate people from voting.

Is this a part of history that you enjoy ignoring? There are living eye witnesses in your neighborhood if you think this didn't happen. You can just ask around.

The courts are acting with caution when the race card is played and I think they should.
 
vasuderatorrent said:
In day to day conversations it isn't taken seriously.

This is about the history of particular areas in our country where the federal government had to get involved because black people were being discriminated against. You didn't see it. I didn't see it. There are still people alive who did see that happen.
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True, we didn't see it but we can't help but be aware of it because of the generational overlap_

And I'm sure you are as appalled by this episode of injustice as we are about much of human history_

People of every race on every continent have been slaves as well as have been the slavers_

And people of every color and gender still suffer discrimination in many parts of the world_

Except in Western Cultures where discrimination of minorities and women is no longer tolerated_

All that is needed to totally eradicate discrimination in the United States is to end Affirmative Action_

I'm sure you know the history behind this but you are choosing to ignore it. I'll just pretend as if you don't know.

Local governments in some of the southern states required voters to pass a reading test in order to vote. Come to find out the motivation was to keep black people from voting rather than keeping illiterate people from voting.

Is this a part of history that you enjoy ignoring? There are living eye witnesses in your neighborhood if you think this didn't happen. You can just ask around.

The courts are acting with caution when the race card is played and I think they should.
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Sorry Vasu but the courts are not "acting with caution"; they are acting politically_

And they are doing so by the strict standards and guidelines of Political Correctness_

50 years of left-wing media indoctrination has made America fearful of rational reasoning_

"Whoever controls the past, controls the future...Whoever controls the present, controls the past" (history)

This is a George Orwell quote regarding the power to control the masses by manipulating the flow of information_

That "flow" is now primarily controlled by the Progressive Main Stream Media, teacher's unions and universities_

These powerful and influential entities have been hard at work for decades teaching us how and what to think_

And failure to comply will get you branded a racist, sexist, xenophobe, homophobe or hater of whatever_

You can't seriously believe so many Americans adopted far-left rhetoric of their own volition in such a few decades?!

I have witnessed this indoctrination my entire 26 years as well as experienced it at universities where I studied_

My brothers and I are 1st generation US Citizens that escaped Socialization by receiving daily doses of the truth from parents whose knowledge and experience came first-hand from their prior lives behind an Iron Curtain_

"Beware the piper as you follow singing and dancing while he plays his beautiful tune"
 
Empirica said:
And you believe I will find evidence that the vast majority of right-wingers believe in a "left-wing voter fraud conspiracy" rather than simply some minor fringe element of it?!

FYI, you can find something no matter what you google__Try googling Toro De Caca if you don't believe me!
Click to expand...

From an October 2012 poll:

-In Ohio 62% of Republicans think Democrats will engage in voter fraud to make sure that Barack Obama wins. 50% of the Democrats think that the GOP will engage in voter fraud to ensure a Romney victory.

-In Florida 60% of Republicans think Democrats will engage in voter fraud to make sure that Barack Obama wins. 55% of the Democrats think that the GOP will engage in voter fraud to ensure a Romney victory.

-In North Carolina 69% of Republicans think Democrats will engage in voter fraud to make sure that Barack Obama wins. 51% of the Democrats think that the GOP will engage in voter fraud to ensure a Romney victory.

And from 2007:

Nearly half the U.S. attorneys slated for removal by the administration last year were targets of Republican complaints that they were lax on voter fraud, including efforts by presidential adviser Karl Rove to encourage more prosecutions of election- law violations, according to new documents and interviews.

Of the 12 U.S. attorneys known to have been dismissed or considered for removal last year, five were identified by Rove or other administration officials as working in districts that were trouble spots for voter fraud -- Kansas City, Mo.; Milwaukee; New Mexico; Nevada; and Washington state. Four of the five prosecutors in those districts were dismissed.

Somehow I don't think that "well over half the Republican party" and "action taken by the Republican president" qualify as "merely a fringe of the Republican party".
 
Empirica said:
<snip>
That "flow" is now primarily controlled by the Progressive Main Stream Media, teacher's unions and universities_

These powerful and influential entities have been hard at work for decades teaching us how and what to think_

And failure to comply will get you branded a racist, sexist, xenophobe, homophobe or hater of whatever_

You can't seriously believe so many Americans adopted far-left rhetoric of their own volition in such a few decades?!

I have witnessed this indoctrination my entire 26 years as well as experienced it at universities where I studied_

My brothers and I are 1st generation US Citizens that escaped Socialization by receiving daily doses of the truth from parents whose knowledge and experience came first-hand from their prior lives behind an Iron Curtain_

"Beware the piper as you follow singing and dancing while he plays his beautiful tune"
Click to expand...

Just a couple of items that illustrate the difficulty in communicating with some folks

Funny how the teachers' unions are so powerful when every year there are fewer members. It is looking more and more like a conspiracy theory similar to that in which a mysterious group known as the Illuminati control everything yet no one has ever met a member of said group. Far too many apparently believe that an ever decreasing group gains more power as its numbers shrink.

It is a conservative meme that the vast majority of "Main Stream Media" is "Progressive" or "left-leaning" created by a propaganda operation that has slowly but surely taken over the minds of many Americans. The fact that it just ain't so no longer matters because at least 27% of the population knows it to be True.

The whole "universities are nothing more than indoctrination centres for far-left radicalism" would be truly hilarious if the idea wasn't being used to destroy public universities in this country. Funny how many of the 'conservative' voices brag about their advanced degrees from these hotbeds of progressivism - almost as if those degrees are meant to impress the gullible who simultaneously are being told, "Don't allow your children go to these schools!"

Paying attention in class should provide the information to allow one to define the words Socialization and Socialism
 
Glen Contrarian said:
From an October 2012 poll:

-In Ohio 62% of Republicans think Democrats will engage in voter fraud to make sure that Barack Obama wins. 50% of the Democrats think that the GOP will engage in voter fraud to ensure a Romney victory.

-In Florida 60% of Republicans think Democrats will engage in voter fraud to make sure that Barack Obama wins. 55% of the Democrats think that the GOP will engage in voter fraud to ensure a Romney victory.

-In North Carolina 69% of Republicans think Democrats will engage in voter fraud to make sure that Barack Obama wins. 51% of the Democrats think that the GOP will engage in voter fraud to ensure a Romney victory.

And from 2007:

Nearly half the U.S. attorneys slated for removal by the administration last year were targets of Republican complaints that they were lax on voter fraud, including efforts by presidential adviser Karl Rove to encourage more prosecutions of election- law violations, according to new documents and interviews.

Of the 12 U.S. attorneys known to have been dismissed or considered for removal last year, five were identified by Rove or other administration officials as working in districts that were trouble spots for voter fraud -- Kansas City, Mo.; Milwaukee; New Mexico; Nevada; and Washington state. Four of the five prosecutors in those districts were dismissed.

Somehow I don't think that "well over half the Republican party" and "action taken by the Republican president" qualify as "merely a fringe of the Republican party".
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Still yet; none of this suggests that conservatives are declaring voter fraud a "Conspiracy"_

The vast majority of right-wingers simply believe too many left-wing voters are of low character_
 
Empirica said:
Still yet; none of this suggests that conservatives are declaring voter fraud a "Conspiracy"_

The vast majority of right-wingers simply believe too many left-wing voters are of low character_
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and therefore they shouldn't be given the opportunity to vote. Is that what you believe?
 
Somerville said:
and therefore they shouldn't be given the opportunity to vote. Is that what you believe?
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Nope; I believe a Voter ID Law should be passed immediately if not sooner_

And anyone found guilty should receive a mandatory 5 year prison sentence and $25,000 fine_

No Exceptions!

This would pretty much put an end to Voter Fraud whether it's on the left or the right_ :peace
 
Empirica said:
Nope; I believe a Voter ID Law should be passed immediately if not sooner_

And anyone found guilty should receive a mandatory 5 year prison sentence and $25,000 fine_

No Exceptions!

This would pretty much put an end to Voter Fraud whether it's on the left or the right_ :peace
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Yeah that would be a great way to end voter fraud all while perhaps increasing the highest incarceration rate in the developed world. [/sarcasm]

The true problem with fraudulent voting actually making a difference is not individuals, who in almost every case was just being stupid instead of acting with criminal intents, but with those who control the voting machines. Every election, some computer science class shows us how easy it is to hack the machines and yet little is done to change things because it costs too much.
 
Somerville said:
Yeah that would be a great way to end voter fraud all while perhaps increasing the highest incarceration rate in the developed world. [/sarcasm]

The true problem with fraudulent voting actually making a difference is not individuals, who in almost every case was just being stupid instead of acting with criminal intents, but with those who control the voting machines. Every election, some computer science class shows us how easy it is to hack the machines and yet little is done to change things because it costs too much.
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Hacking the machines is also Voter Fraud to which the law would equally apply except with the criminal counts multiplied many times, so a hacker could potentially receive what amounts to a life sentence for their crimes_

A law is as much about deterrent as it is about punishment with the latter reflecting the seriousness of the former and Voter Fraud is a very serious crime against society and democracy_

It is a categorical imperative that all people have absolute faith in their elections for democracy to be successful and flourish and anyone who attempts to convince you otherwise should be viewed with suspicion_
 
Empirica said:
Still yet; none of this suggests that conservatives are declaring voter fraud a "Conspiracy"_

The vast majority of right-wingers simply believe too many left-wing voters are of low character_
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Ah. If "too many left-wing voters are of low character", then doesn't it stand to reason, then, that we would generally elect worse candidates and - by extension - blue states would be a lot worse off than red states?

I'm really looking forward to your answer on that one....
 
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