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Hobby Lobby invests in companies that makes IUD's/Plan-B Contraceptives

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darkrecess

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Hello again all,

Just found this little nugget. If true, it would certainly be a blow to the Hobby Lobby position (their standing with the rest of us, including those who defend them), if not to their case pending in front of the SCOTUS as well. A company that protests being forced to comply with a mandate to provide contraceptive coverage (including IUD's and Plan B Contraceptives) based on their religious objection to those services either has no business investing in these companies, or has no business arguing that their religious beliefs provide them with an exception to avoid providing services they religiously object to while continuing to invest in companies that manufacture those products.

Thoughts?
 
darkrecess said:
Hello again all,

Just found this little nugget. If true, it would certainly be a blow to the Hobby Lobby position (their standing with the rest of us, including those who defend them), if not to their case pending in front of the SCOTUS as well. A company that protests being forced to comply with a mandate to provide contraceptive coverage (including IUD's and Plan B Contraceptives) based on their religious objection to those services either has no business investing in these companies, or has no business arguing that their religious beliefs provide them with an exception to avoid providing services they religiously object to while continuing to invest in companies that manufacture those products.

Thoughts?
Click to expand...

Meh.

That Hobby Lobby matches employees contributions to 401(k) plans that hold mutual funds that include emergency contraceptives, etc. might make for good fodder from those on the extreme left but that's about it.
 
So wait, the fact that Hobby Lobby willingly invests in these companies (despite the products they make), while at the same time objecting to those very same products based on a corporations religious objections is nothing?

I'm sorry, I truly see a double standard here. Either you object to these products, or you don't. If you do, don't invest in them and don't offer health insurance. If you don't, shut up and stop wasting the Supreme Court's time.
 
darkrecess said:
so wait, the fact that hobby lobby willingly invests in these companies (despite the products they make), while at the same time objecting to those very same products based on a corporations religious objections is nothing?

I'm sorry, i truly see a double standard here. Either you object to these products, or you don't. If you do, don't invest in them and don't offer health insurance. If you don't, shut up and stop wasting the supreme court's time.
Click to expand...

it does not matter if you think its a double standard, you and otherS do not dictate, what you shall receive, when other people,business is doing the offering , if you dont like what they offer, you free to seek your own way.

It seems you people have never heard of rights...unless their your own
 
darkrecess said:
So wait, the fact that Hobby Lobby willingly invests in these companies (despite the products they make), while at the same time objecting to those very same products based on a corporations religious objections is nothing?

I'm sorry, I truly see a double standard here. Either you object to these products, or you don't. If you do, don't invest in them and don't offer health insurance. If you don't, shut up and stop wasting the Supreme Court's time.
Click to expand...

Stop with the fake outrage.

In all likelihood Hobby Lobby had no idea their employees 401(k)s invested in mutual funds that invested in companies that make emergency contraceptives. I have no idea what companies make emergency contraceptives myself.
 
darkrecess said:
Hello again all,

Just found this little nugget. If true, it would certainly be a blow to the Hobby Lobby position (their standing with the rest of us, including those who defend them), if not to their case pending in front of the SCOTUS as well. A company that protests being forced to comply with a mandate to provide contraceptive coverage (including IUD's and Plan B Contraceptives) based on their religious objection to those services either has no business investing in these companies, or has no business arguing that their religious beliefs provide them with an exception to avoid providing services they religiously object to while continuing to invest in companies that manufacture those products.

Thoughts?
Click to expand...

From the article:

Hobby Lobby's 401(k) employee retirement plan holds $73 million in mutual funds that invest in multiple pharmaceutical companies that produce emergency contraceptive pills, intrauterine devices, and abortion-inducing medications.​

Do you understand what mutual funds are, and how they work? I'm guessing that you do not.

If this is true, then once it is called to their attention, Hobby Lobby will very likely look into moving these investments to other funds, more carefully chosen to avoid such a conflict. But it is almost certain that they did not know that their money was being invested in such a manner. Mutual funds are like that. The fund invests in a variety of stocks, and the investors invest in the fund, usually not knowing or caring about the details of just what stocks the fund is invested in. If one has reasons not to want to be invested in certain businesses, one would have to be paying much closer attention than is normally to be expected of mutual fund investors.
 
Bob Blaylock said:
If this is true, then once it is called to their attention, Hobby Lobby will very likely look into moving these investments to other funds, more carefully chosen to avoid such a conflict. But it is almost certain that they did not know that their money was being invested in such a manner.
Click to expand...
Seeing that Hobby Lobby is pretty strict with their business and their religion--meaning they go hand in hand--they should have looked in to those mutual funds just like they looked in to their health care doings--with the same tenacity.
 
Bob N said:
Seeing that Hobby Lobby is pretty strict with their business and their religion--meaning they go hand in hand--they should have looked in to those mutual funds just like they looked in to their health care doings--with the same tenacity.
Click to expand...

Do you know anything about investing in mutual funds?
 
Bob Blaylock said:
Do you know anything about investing in mutual funds?
Click to expand...
Yeah. You do get a Prospectus which includes the names of the companies in a particular mutual fund.
 
Bob Blaylock said:
Do you understand what mutual funds are, and how they work? I'm guessing that you do not. If one has reasons not to want to be invested in certain businesses, one would have to be paying much closer attention than is normally to be expected of mutual fund investors.
Click to expand...

Do YOU understand what mutual funds are, and how they work? I'm guessing you do not. :roll:

It takes but a minute to find DOZENS of Faith-based funds to invest in. Even the secular 'Business Week' discusses the Faith Based mutual funds. Difficult to believe the supposedly very devout Leadership of Hobby Lobby was so unaware of the alternative to secular funds. It would be a strange 'job creator' who doesn't keep a sharp eye to investment strategies...

So the CON game continues. It appears the Leadership of Hobby Lobby has ZERO problems with MAKING money from non Christian sources- it is only when it comes to SPENDING money to care of it's employees when the Good Book is held high. :doh
 
This continues to be the mantra of rightiecons lately on dp, attack the web-site with as much vitriol as the actual political position.
Didn't Romney have this problem with dispensers of Aborted fetuses?
I found that terribly disgusting, considering his flip-flop on the issue from being "left" of Sen. Kennedy .
RiverDad said:
Why are you linking to toxic hate sites?
Click to expand...
 
shavingcollywob said:
Meh.

That Hobby Lobby matches employees contributions to 401(k) plans that hold mutual funds that include emergency contraceptives, etc. might make for good fodder from those on the extreme left but that's about it.
Click to expand...

look an apologist it must suck to have to defend hypocrisy.
 
ernst barkmann said:
it does not matter if you think its a double standard, you and otherS do not dictate, what you shall receive, when other people,business is doing the offering , if you dont like what they offer, you free to seek your own way.

It seems you people have never heard of rights...unless their your own
Click to expand...
Employees have rights, too. The employees are paying for their health insurance with their labor just as if it were wages.
 
notquiteright said:
Do YOU understand what mutual funds are, and how they work? I'm guessing you do not. :roll:

It takes but a minute to find DOZENS of Faith-based funds to invest in. Even the secular 'Business Week' discusses the Faith Based mutual funds. Difficult to believe the supposedly very devout Leadership of Hobby Lobby was so unaware of the alternative to secular funds. It would be a strange 'job creator' who doesn't keep a sharp eye to investment strategies...

So the CON game continues. It appears the Leadership of Hobby Lobby has ZERO problems with MAKING money from non Christian sources- it is only when it comes to SPENDING money to care of it's employees when the Good Book is held high. :doh
Click to expand...


401(k) are accounts held by the employee, not the employer. Individuals make contributions and in some cases the company will make some type of match (usually not that much in the grand scheme of things but every little bit helps). Even if match does occur, that amount goes to the employee who then selects from the available list of funds which they should chose based on the need for diversity and their individual risk assessment.

Hobby Lobby doesn't own those accounts - the individual employees do.

Hobby Lobby isn't selecting the fund profile - the individual employees do.

Hobby Lobby doesn't select the portfolio investments - the Fund managers in the investment firm do.




This is a little different then Hobby Lobby paying (directly) the bulk of an insurance premiums.

An employer makes arrangements with a fund management company, in my case it's ING. My money is deducted from my paycheck through an automatic deduction. That money is transferred from me to ING and deposited in my account where ING they distributes it into the mutual funds that I as an individual have selected.



>>>>
 
darkrecess said:
Hello again all,

Just found this little nugget. If true, it would certainly be a blow to the Hobby Lobby position (their standing with the rest of us, including those who defend them), if not to their case pending in front of the SCOTUS as well. A company that protests being forced to comply with a mandate to provide contraceptive coverage (including IUD's and Plan B Contraceptives) based on their religious objection to those services either has no business investing in these companies, or has no business arguing that their religious beliefs provide them with an exception to avoid providing services they religiously object to while continuing to invest in companies that manufacture those products.

Thoughts?
Click to expand...
****ing hypocrites.
 
The premise of this thread may well be the most ridiculous overreach I have seen on this site (note that I don't frequent the conspiracy forum).

29 CFR 2550.404c-5 covers the requirements for funds a 401(k) can be invested in. While the reg doesn't specify particular financial instruments it does require 'pooled funds' and also requires diversified investment managed in such a way as to minimize risk. It would be INCREDIBLY difficult for a fund manager to fulfill the obligations of this regulation without investing in certain instruments that are, in turn, invested in some form of medical research or manufacturing.

For these reasons it behooves an employer to hire a management firm to handle their 401(k). The employer will generally not interfere with the fund manager because to do so might create a violation of the aforementioned regulation.

Furthermore, the employer is not allowed to direct the employee's investment choices but is (if they provide matching funds) required to meet their contribution requirements as defined by the written agreement. If the employee opts for a fund that is partially invested in medical and pharmaceutical businesses (as many funds are) then they have no choice but to match those contributions.

Finally, when the employer (or you) buy the stock of a pharmaceutical corporation you ARE NOT making a cash payment to that corporation. All you are doing is purchasing the right to a certain percentage of the equity in that corporation. In some cases you might have voting rights but that's about it.
 
WorldWatcher said:
401(k) are accounts held by the employee, not the employer. Individuals make contributions and in some cases the company will make some type of match (usually not that much in the grand scheme of things but every little bit helps). Even if match does occur, that amount goes to the employee who then selects from the available list of funds which they should chose based on the need for diversity and their individual risk assessment. Hobby Lobby doesn't own those accounts - the individual employees do. Hobby Lobby isn't selecting the fund profile - the individual employees do. Hobby Lobby doesn't select the portfolio investments - the Fund managers in the investment firm do. This is a little different then Hobby Lobby paying (directly) the bulk of an insurance premiums. An employer makes arrangements with a fund management company, in my case it's ING. My money is deducted from my paycheck through an automatic deduction. That money is transferred from me to ING and deposited in my account where ING they distributes it into the mutual funds that I as an individual have selected.
Click to expand...

Wide spacing of your post doesn't improve the CON argument... :roll:

a 401(k) is PROVIDED by the EMPLOYER sometimes with a match fund. a Health care plan is PROVIDED by the EMPLOYER. The EMPLOYER offers the plans in BOTH cases to pick from. There are many 'Faith Based' companies that offer 'Blessed' funds for the employee to select from for retirement. In Hobby Lobby's case they wouldn't use ING as the fund account company. Your attempt to claim otherwise is false. The EMPLOYER selects the company from which funds are made available to the employee- not the other way round. The family that runs Hobby Lobby are employees as well... both directly as 401(K) holders and as employers using the 401(K) as a hiring tool benefit- they profit from the 401(K). I can't imagine the folks running Hobby Lobby failing to do their religious homework on 401(K)s but so strict on the tiny amount of money going to BC compared to everything else covered by the healthcare plan.

To use your CONvoluted 'logic' Hobby Lobby's contribution to the Healthcare care plan has a fractional amount of their profits POTENTIALLY for use in Birth Control and CONTRACEPTION (it seems the Religious Right is trying to throw the baby out with the bathwater), just like a fractional amount of their profit gets diverted to help invest in Big Pharma companies making so E-Vile a product that a huge percentage of American women are quite alright with.

But like I said, one is Mammon coming in and one is it going out... :peace
 
notquiteright said:
Wide spacing of your post doesn't improve the CON argument... :roll:

a 401(k) is PROVIDED by the EMPLOYER sometimes with a match fund. a Health care plan is PROVIDED by the EMPLOYER. The EMPLOYER offers the plans in BOTH cases to pick from. There are many 'Faith Based' companies that offer 'Blessed' funds for the employee to select from for retirement. In Hobby Lobby's case they wouldn't use ING as the fund account company. Your attempt to claim otherwise is false. The EMPLOYER selects the company from which funds are made available to the employee- not the other way round. The family that runs Hobby Lobby are employees as well... both directly as 401(K) holders and as employers using the 401(K) as a hiring tool benefit- they profit from the 401(K). I can't imagine the folks running Hobby Lobby failing to do their religious homework on 401(K)s but so strict on the tiny amount of money going to BC compared to everything else covered by the healthcare plan.

To use your CONvoluted 'logic' Hobby Lobby's contribution to the Healthcare care plan has a fractional amount of their profits POTENTIALLY for use in Birth Control and CONTRACEPTION (it seems the Religious Right is trying to throw the baby out with the bathwater), just like a fractional amount of their profit gets diverted to help invest in Big Pharma companies making so E-Vile a product that a huge percentage of American women are quite alright with.

But like I said, one is Mammon coming in and one is it going out... :peace
Click to expand...

Let's think about this for a minute.

You are contending that Hobby Lobby should be aware of what funds the 401(k) offers and, based on their principles, opt out of those funds or else they're hypocrites.

Hmm.....

Every April I send the IRS a check that goes to fund a whole bunch of crap I would like to opt out of so am I also a hypocrite for funding Planned Parenthood through my taxes? Should I be eligible to make a discretionary adjustment to my tax payment to avoid funding an organization I dislike?
 
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Moot said:
Employees have rights, too. The employees are paying for their health insurance with their labor just as if it were wages.
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the company offers a plan, ...you either take what is offered, , or you turn it down and find your own plan, you dont get to demand what the plan has.

example ..using another plan.

your employer offers a 401k, and the plan does not offer a particular fund in its plan, do you believe you can demand the company, put a fund you want into the plan, just because you contributing to your own 401k.
 
ernst barkmann said:
the company offers a plan, ...you either take what is offered, , or you turn it down and find your own plan, you dont get to demand what the plan has.

example ..using another plan.

your employer offers a 401k, and the plan does not offer a particular fund in its plan, do you believe you can demand the company, put a fund you want into the plan, just because you contributing to your own 401k.
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Likewise, the private insurance companies offers plans...and companies like HL don't get to chose what's in the plans, either. They aren't paying for it...their employees are in lieu of higher wages.


But, if the company doesn't want to provide insurance, they can always pay the fine and let their employees chose insurance off the exchange.
 
Moot said:
Likewise, the insurance company offers plans...and companies like HL don't get to chose what's in the plans, either. They aren't paying for it...their employees are as compensation in lieu of higher wages.


But, if the company doesn't want to provide insurance, they can always pay the fine and let their employees chose insurance off the exchange.
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if the insurance company offers a plan, and it has something in the plan hobby lobby does not like, ...then they either take the plan, reject the plan, hobby lobby does not get to change the insurance plan,..... just as the employes do not get to change the plan.

who offers the plan to the employees?...come you can say it.

since they offer it, ...you take it or leave it.
 
ernst barkmann said:
if the insurance company offers a plan, and it has something in the plan hobby lobby does not like, ...then they either take the plan, reject the plan, hobby lobby does not get to change the insurance plan,..... just as the employes do not get to change the plan.

who offers the plan to the employees?...come you can say it.

since they offer it, ...you take it or leave it.
Click to expand...

If I understand the new law correctly, it allows employees to opt out of their employer insurance and buy it off the exchange...but, if they do then the employer has to pay $2000 toward the employees coverage. That would allow both the employer and employee to chose their health care plans, wouldn't it?
 
I'm very liberal myself but I don't see the double standard here. Their job as an employer is to give their employees the best possible retirement plan. How that money is invested has nothing do with endorsing any product or service and everything to do with creating financial security for the employees who have retirement plans. I can see how somebody would see this as evidence of a double standard. After all, Hobby Lobby's objection to providing contraceptive coverage is a bit of a stretch - that is, it's hard to imagine that their objection is really based on religious principles rather than a general outrage over the new law itself. Since they're so concerned with technically "endorsing" contraception, they shouldn't technically endorse contraception by including these companies in their employee's 401K plan.

It's all a bit of a stretch. I'll give them a pass on the investment plan and condemn them for their stupid objection to Obamacare. If a politician who condemned guns but owned a mutual fund that included Smith and Wesson, I'd give them a pass too. I'm very tolerant I suppose :)
 
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