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Hobby Lobby invests in companies that makes IUD's/Plan-B Contraceptives

If I understand the new law correctly, it allows employees to opt out of their employer insurance and buy it off the exchange...but, if they do then the employer has to pay $2000 toward the employees coverage. That would allow both the employer and employee to chose their health care plans, wouldn't it?

as i understand the the ruling of the USSC, it states the government can tax people if they do not buy health insurance, i didn't hear a ruling from the court which states, plans have to conform to a standard, since the decision is just that you have insurance, ....not how it is structured.

for the government to force a person/company to pay for a person's insurance is unconstitutional...........their is no authority by government to force person/company [A], to pay the cost for person ....that would create servitude.
 
Hello again all,

Just found this little nugget. If true, it would certainly be a blow to the Hobby Lobby position (their standing with the rest of us, including those who defend them), if not to their case pending in front of the SCOTUS as well. A company that protests being forced to comply with a mandate to provide contraceptive coverage (including IUD's and Plan B Contraceptives) based on their religious objection to those services either has no business investing in these companies, or has no business arguing that their religious beliefs provide them with an exception to avoid providing services they religiously object to while continuing to invest in companies that manufacture those products.

Thoughts?

Thoughts? Okay, here goes....

The destination of the Hobby Lobby's employees' 401k investments aren't being argued in front of the SCOTUS. Nor is "hypocrisy" being argued.

But I have to give Mother Jones credit for their tenacity. This case has them in a tailspin. Last week the claim was the 4 drugs that HL objects to don't even cause abortions and the FDA labels were wrong.

Ultimately the SCOTUS judges will have to decide if HL has made a case against the coverage of the 4 contraceptives in question, nothing more, nothing less.
 
as i understand the the ruling of the USSC, it states the government can tax people if they do not buy health insurance, i didn't hear a ruling from the court which states, plans have to conform to a standard, since the decision is just that you have insurance, ....not how it is structured.
The court wasn't asked to rule on the structure or the standards in the law. But whats wrong with having standards in health care?

for the government to force a person/company to pay for a person's insurance is unconstitutional
Did the court rule that it was unconstitutional?

their is no authority by government to force person/company [A], to pay the cost for person ....that would create servitude.
Did the court rule that the government didn't have the authority?
 
Hobby Lobby's Hypocrisy: The Company's Retirement Plan Invests in Contraception

Documents filed with the Department of Labor and dated December 2012—three months after the company's owners filed their lawsuit—show that the Hobby Lobby 401(k) employee retirement plan held more than $73 million in mutual funds with investments in companies that produce emergency contraceptive pills, intrauterine devices, and drugs commonly used in abortions. Hobby Lobby makes large matching contributions to this company-sponsored 401(k).

Oops, so much for religious beliefs being the reason Hobby Lobby doesn't want to cover contraception. In the end, it's all about yet another group of hypocritical political assholes who want power over women.

Article is here.
 
Thoughts? Okay, here goes....

Yay, hopefully someone reasonable will reply to my post, even if they disagree.

The destination of the Hobby Lobby's employees' 401k investments aren't being argued in front of the SCOTUS. Nor is "hypocrisy" being argued.

Agreed, although irrelevant. If you look at the original post, I mention only in passing that this might have a negligible impact, if any at all, on the SCOTUS decision. My post is more referenced to the rest of us who aren't sitting on the nation's highest court, and how we spend our dollars when looking to buy arts and crafts. If you want to do so at a store that is religiously based, are you going to do so at Hobby Lobby, knowing that they don't take steps to ensure that their 401(k) dollars don't go to support companies who invest in this type of research and benefit from the sale and use of these products. In my case, I am ardently opposed to guns, and I steer clear of any store that sells guns on its premises, if I can avoid it.

But I have to give Mother Jones credit for their tenacity. This case has them in a tailspin. Last week the claim was the 4 drugs that HL objects to don't even cause abortions and the FDA labels were wrong.
double-facepalm.jpgjon stewart hobby lobby.jpg
Oh, God, another one? Look, let's get this straight. IUD's and Plan-B contraceptives are not abortion causing drugs, as least not under US law and regulations. We can have that debate if you wish, but until you change the law itself, the drugs are considered preventive contraception, not abortion-inducing drugs. If you actually look at how they work, the IUD's never allow the egg to come in contact with sperm (thus conception never happens), and the plan-B contraceptive prevents the fertilized egg from implanting in the placenta, thereby causing a natural miscarriage before the fertilized egg (at this stage, still a 1-cell organism) has a chance to even develop the capacity to hold religious beliefs or experience pain.

Ultimately the SCOTUS judges will have to decide if HL has made a case against the coverage of the 4 contraceptives in question, nothing more, nothing less.

Under the law, there is nothing different between those four drugs and other forms of available contraception. Your moral beliefs are yours to define (as are mine), but as a society we adhere to a secular standard that prevents the transmission of religious biases into codified law. And, to be quite honest, that is not even the question pending before the court. The question pending is whether a corporation, as a distinct legal entity from its owners and stockholders, has religious rights, the same as citizens do. I could go for hours talking about how a decision for Hobby Lobby would hamstring boardrooms all across the US (which is quite likely why exactly zero amicus briefs have been filed by US businesses on behalf of Hobby Lobby), but suffice it to say that a decision for Hobby Lobby would pierce the corporate veil, potentially destroying one of the biggest benefits of corporate ownership of a business.
 
it does not matter if you think its a double standard, you and otherS do not dictate, what you shall receive, when other people,business is doing the offering , if you dont like what they offer, you free to seek your own way.

It seems you people have never heard of rights...unless their your own

First, capital letters and punctuation are usually deemed necessary if you want to have a reasoned debate.

Second, I fail to see the point of your entire post, except wasting my time trying to decipher this gibberish:

you and otherS do not dictate, what you shall receive, when other people,business is doing the offering ,

Thirdly, rights are always weighed in contrast to others. My right to speak is weighed against the harm certain types of speech may inflict on your reputation (although in this case, you've done a pretty good job of shattering that yourself, no help needed). And exactly what right do you have here to say that businesses should not be held accountable for the wages and benefits (or the lack thereof) they provide to their employees? And so help me God, if you cite the 9th and 10th Amendments, I will personally tattoo those words on your forehead so the next time you argue against abortion rights, you can read them time and again.

Fourth, bird.jpg. Enough said.
 
I'm very liberal myself but I don't see the double standard here. Their job as an employer is to give their employees the best possible retirement plan. How that money is invested has nothing do with endorsing any product or service and everything to do with creating financial security for the employees who have retirement plans. I can see how somebody would see this as evidence of a double standard. After all, Hobby Lobby's objection to providing contraceptive coverage is a bit of a stretch - that is, it's hard to imagine that their objection is really based on religious principles rather than a general outrage over the new law itself. Since they're so concerned with technically "endorsing" contraception, they shouldn't technically endorse contraception by including these companies in their employee's 401K plan.

It's all a bit of a stretch. I'll give them a pass on the investment plan and condemn them for their stupid objection to Obamacare. If a politician who condemned guns but owned a mutual fund that included Smith and Wesson, I'd give them a pass too. I'm very tolerant I suppose :)

It could just be me, but I like consistency. As others have pointed out in this thread, it is fairly easy to find faith-based mutual funds (ie, ones who are diversified enough to meet federal regulations while doing so without compromising spiritual ethics, namely, by avoiding companies like the ones that produce the IUD and Plan B). Given that, and Hobby Lobby's alleged religious objection to providing those services via healthcare coverage, it's one or the other, you don't get to do both. Either shut up and follow the law, or continue with the suit, but if you continue with the suit, don't tell me that Hobby Lobby's objections are religiously motivated, because other evidence destroys that claim.
 
Re: Hobby Lobby's Hypocrisy: The Company's Retirement Plan Invests in Contraception

Oops, so much for religious beliefs being the reason Hobby Lobby doesn't want to cover contraception. In the end, it's all about yet another group of hypocritical political assholes who want power over women.

Article is here.

Thread is here.
 
Re: Hobby Lobby's Hypocrisy: The Company's Retirement Plan Invests in Contraception

Pretty sure most understood this entire fiasco was about money in the first place....not unexpected.
 
So wait, the fact that Hobby Lobby willingly invests in these companies (despite the products they make), while at the same time objecting to those very same products based on a corporations religious objections is nothing?

I'm sorry, I truly see a double standard here. Either you object to these products, or you don't. If you do, don't invest in them and don't offer health insurance. If you don't, shut up and stop wasting the Supreme Court's time.

Boy are you a scared little bunny, worried to death about what one company does. Most people would say it's none of YOUR ****ing business what they offer their employees. And btw, did you know that IUD's have risks? Don't you care about women's health?
 
Darkrecess, I'll take your post one point at a time. I removed your pictures because I don't waste time on that.

Agreed, although irrelevant. If you look at the original post, I mention only in passing that this might have a negligible impact, if any at all, on the SCOTUS decision. My post is more referenced to the rest of us who aren't sitting on the nation's highest court, and how we spend our dollars when looking to buy arts and crafts. If you want to do so at a store that is religiously based, are you going to do so at Hobby Lobby, knowing that they don't take steps to ensure that their 401(k) dollars don't go to support companies who invest in this type of research and benefit from the sale and use of these products. In my case, I am ardently opposed to guns, and I steer clear of any store that sells guns on its premises, if I can avoid it.



Okay, that's great. That's what you do, but your actions aren't being litigated in the SCOTUS.

Look, let's get this straight. IUD's and Plan-B contraceptives are not abortion causing drugs, as least not under US law and regulations. We can have that debate if you wish, but until you change the law itself, the drugs are considered preventive contraception, not abortion-inducing drugs. If you actually look at how they work, the IUD's never allow the egg to come in contact with sperm (thus conception never happens), and the plan-B contraceptive prevents the fertilized egg from implanting in the placenta, thereby causing a natural miscarriage before the fertilized egg (at this stage, still a 1-cell organism) has a chance to even develop the capacity to hold religious beliefs or experience pain

That's nice, but the FDA warning labels on the 4 drugs contraceptives in question say otherwise.

Under the law, there is nothing different between those four drugs and other forms of available contraception. Your moral beliefs are yours to define (as are mine), but as a society we adhere to a secular standard that prevents the transmission of religious biases into codified law. And, to be quite honest, that is not even the question pending before the court. The question pending is whether a corporation, as a distinct legal entity from its owners and stockholders, has religious rights, the same as citizens do. I could go for hours talking about how a decision for Hobby Lobby would hamstring boardrooms all across the US (which is quite likely why exactly zero amicus briefs have been filed by US businesses on behalf of Hobby Lobby), but suffice it to say that a decision for Hobby Lobby would pierce the corporate veil, potentially destroying one of the biggest benefits of corporate ownership of a business.

I already know what is being argued before the SCOTUS judges, and my guess is, so do they.
 
Re: Hobby Lobby's Hypocrisy: The Company's Retirement Plan Invests in Contraception

Those who can account for where every dollar of their investments go, cast the first stone. ;)
 
Re: Hobby Lobby's Hypocrisy: The Company's Retirement Plan Invests in Contraception

Oops, so much for religious beliefs being the reason Hobby Lobby doesn't want to cover contraception. In the end, it's all about yet another group of hypocritical political assholes who want power over women.

Article is here.

Be all the hack you can be, join the liberal army. Prove to me that none of your investments invest in anything your against. That shouldn't be a problem for you right?
 
Re: Hobby Lobby's Hypocrisy: The Company's Retirement Plan Invests in Contraception

I don't know if this is all that fair of a criticism. I try to invest in social responsible funds, but for all I know there are companies in funds I invest in whose business model revolves around grinding up kittens and puppies.
 
Let's think about this for a minute. You are contending that Hobby Lobby should be aware of what funds the 401(k) offers and, based on their principles, opt out of those funds or else they're hypocrites. Hmm..... Every April I send the IRS a check that goes to fund a whole bunch of crap I would like to opt out of so am I also a hypocrite for funding Planned Parenthood through my taxes? Should I be eligible to make a discretionary adjustment to my tax payment to avoid funding an organization I dislike?

Another CON game, yes too bad you didn't think about this a bit more.

Hobby Lobby is attempting to get out of providing Health Care Insurance because a tiny fraction of what they pay MAY go to Birth Control which they claim soo violates their PERSONAL religious tenants they would rather face fines and court costs rather than abide by the law. They howsomever are FAR less concerned about supporting Big Pharma who makes the BC drugs through the 401(K) plans THEY provide to their employees. They can easily avoid the 401(K) issue by using a Faith Based Fund manager.

For both you and Hobby Lobby the phrase is- "render unto Caesar's what is Caesars", both of you have complete discretion in what retirement plans you can use to avoid the religious turmoil you claim to suffer by the fact PPH receives federal funding.

It rings a bit hollow that Hobby Lobby is so willing to face fines and court costs over so tiny amount of BC coverage- a slightly jaded man might opine they see it as avoiding providing health coverage all together thus making it more justifiable to face fines and court costs- but so inattentive on the 401(k) issue.
 
Boy are you a scared little bunny, worried to death about what one company does. Most people would say it's none of YOUR ****ing business what they offer their employees. And btw, did you know that IUD's have risks? Don't you care about women's health?

And you seem to be a lot like an angry little bunny.

As long as a company obeys the law I'm fine with Hobby Lobby offering 401(K) plans that support BC. Like minimum wage there are some things a company is required to provide. Hobby Lobby has brought this level of scrutiny on itself by declaring how seriously they take what THEY see as following a religion so discrepancies are worth a comment or two.

And BTW, did you know damn near EVERYTHING has a risk??? You look rather silly trying to make one form of BC seem 'risky'... :roll:
 
Re: Hobby Lobby's Hypocrisy: The Company's Retirement Plan Invests in Contraception

I can't wait for the day when Mother Jones spends some time looking at the mutual fund holdings of all of the politicians who are anti-gun. Wouldn't it be interesting to see if any of their holdings are invested in companies that manufacture guns or any companies that are suppliers to any company involved in any way in the gun industry.

Where was Mother Jones when it came out that Michael Moore owned stock in medical, health, pharmaceutical, defense and big oil companies likePfizer, Merck, Eli Lilly, Tenet Healthcare, Sunoco, General Electric and Halliburton, and owned stock in companies that outsource labor overseas? I know. They weren't around.

And while this is all fascinating, it isn't the Supreme Court's job to cast a ruling on hypocrisy. They are supposed to interpret law and exercise judicial decisions on laws.
 
And you seem to be a lot like an angry little bunny.

As long as a company obeys the law I'm fine with Hobby Lobby offering 401(K) plans that support BC. Like minimum wage there are some things a company is required to provide. Hobby Lobby has brought this level of scrutiny on itself by declaring how seriously they take what THEY see as following a religion so discrepancies are worth a comment or two.

And BTW, did you know damn near EVERYTHING has a risk??? You look rather silly trying to make one form of BC seem 'risky'... :roll:

IUD's have gone from deadly dangerous to still having some serious risks even after 30 years of improvements. But IUD's have a special place in politics since the 1970's, and I suspect that has more to do with why there is such a politcal uproar over them. Hobby Lobby apparently offers plenty of BC options in its health insurance plan, but that's never enough for political hacks and feminazi fanatics.
 
Another CON game, yes too bad you didn't think about this a bit more.

Hobby Lobby is attempting to get out of providing Health Care Insurance because a tiny fraction of what they pay MAY go to Birth Control which they claim soo violates their PERSONAL religious tenants they would rather face fines and court costs rather than abide by the law. .

They aren't trying to get out of providing healthcare insurance. You may want to read the case before making such an inaccurate statement.

The ACA requires that insurance include 20 specific forms of contraception. 4 of them contain FDA warnings that they may cause a formed fetus to abort. Hobby Lobby wants to remove these 4 specific contraceptives from their employee plans and only cover the other 16 forms of contraception.

It's posts like this that are disturbing. You don't even know what is being argued in front of the Supreme Court.
 
Re: Hobby Lobby's Hypocrisy: The Company's Retirement Plan Invests in Contraception

Those who can account for where every dollar of their investments go, cast the first stone. ;)

I'd like to see what the Mother Jones employees' 401k investments are. Yes, MJ offers a 401k with a match to their employees. Wouldn't it be a hoot if their employees mutual funds were invested in companies that are in any way involved in any sector that MJ loves to attack, like Wall Street, the gun industry, big pharma, etc.?
 
Re: Hobby Lobby's Hypocrisy: The Company's Retirement Plan Invests in Contraception

I'd like to see what the Mother Jones employees' 401k investments are. Yes, MJ offers a 401k with a match to their employees. Wouldn't it be a hoot if their employees mutual funds were invested in companies that are in any way involved in any sector that MJ loves to attack, like Wall Street, the gun industry, big pharma, etc.?

Investments are so convoluted I doubt, without extensive research, they'd know.

There are criminal acts[IMO] taking place everyday on Wall Street and beyond but, it's not just Hobby Lobby that has money involved.
 
IUD's have gone from deadly dangerous to still having some serious risks even after 30 years of improvements. But IUD's have a special place in politics since the 1970's, and I suspect that has more to do with why there is such a politcal uproar over them. Hobby Lobby apparently offers plenty of BC options in its health insurance plan, but that's never enough for political hacks and feminazi fanatics.

As does the BC pill for some women... you are nit picking ONE form of BC in a CON attempt to claim concern for women's health... :doh

You can suspect anything you wish, you seem unable to prove much though. What insurance does Hobby Lobby offer?

Now to get back to the facts... Hobby Lobby is suing the Government to avoid obeying the law. I don't see the heartfelt religious objection near as much as not wishing to provide comprehensive heath care insurance.
 
They aren't trying to get out of providing healthcare insurance. You may want to read the case before making such an inaccurate statement. The ACA requires that insurance include 20 specific forms of contraception. 4 of them contain FDA warnings that they may cause a formed fetus to abort. Hobby Lobby wants to remove these 4 specific contraceptives from their employee plans and only cover the other 16 forms of contraception. It's posts like this that are disturbing. You don't even know what is being argued in front of the Supreme Court.

I see it as a stalking horse... using 4 forms to deny them all... the law doesn't allow the employer to decide which forms of MEDICALLY approved treatments the employer will 'pay for'. I figure Hobby Lobby is trying to stick it's camel's nose into our tent.

it is a bit of a false doctrine to claim Hobby Lobby can get out paying for abortive BC methods as the money pools in a collective bin for ALL insured members at the Insurance Company. Thus Hobby Lobby may demand their employees not get one of the dreaded 4 but Hobby Lobby's money in the pool sure can be used to fund a different company's employees. :doh

Then again an employee can take Hobby Lobby money and buy one of the dreaded 4 so once again Hobby Lobby money can be paying for a 'bad' drug.

As best it is a face saving stunt by Hobby Lobby, at worst the start of eroding ACA coverage... :peace
 
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