• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Retiring NSA chief doesn't understand why people hate the NSA

OldWorldOrder said:
You don't get to know. Sorry, dude. Whine about it some more. Dinner was great, btw <3
Click to expand...

Ahhh, so the "we keep the actions of the government secret for you and promote ignorance amongst the People in order to ensure that they cannot keep the Republic through informed voting" argument.

Yes, that is what I have said from the start. You are interested in the Catch 22. We have Representatives that, so long as the public is educated towards the concerns and actions of government, we can control with some amount of intellectual certainly; but that you'll move to remove that education so that we can't. You can vote for someone else, but without the information it's just a crap shoot.

Well at least you can admit your Catch 22, ignorance promoting, self aggrandizing ways.
 
Henrin said:
Did I call myself a patriot somewhere? I imagine you know of these things, so perhaps you can root through all that information you have at your disposal and find where I said such a thing. How long ago was it?
Click to expand...

I never said you did.

I'm not sure why you mentioned representative democracy since what we are speaking of here and now isn't supported by the people.
Click to expand...

But it is by the people's representatives. Ya know...the way the US government works.
 
OldWorldOrder said:
But it is by the people's representatives. Ya know...the way the US government works.
Click to expand...

Yeah, so?? They pass all kinds of ****. What makes you think that means anything to me?
 
Ikari said:
Ahhh, so the "we keep the actions of the government secret for you and promote ignorance amongst the People in order to ensure that they cannot keep the Republic through informed voting" argument.

Yes, that is what I have said from the start. You are interested in the Catch 22. We have Representatives that, so long as the public is educated towards the concerns and actions of government, we can control with some amount of intellectual certainly; but that you'll move to remove that education so that we can't. You can vote for someone else, but without the information it's just a crap shoot.

Well at least you can admit your Catch 22, ignorance promoting, self aggrandizing ways.
Click to expand...

Yeah, that's the way our government works. You don't get to know classified information just because you want to. Sorry! Still free to move, "slave".
 
OldWorldOrder said:
But it is by the people's representatives. Ya know...the way the US government works.
Click to expand...

The way it works is through intelligent and educating voting. But you're actively trying to remove that.
 
OldWorldOrder said:
Yeah, that's the way our government works. You don't get to know classified information just because you want to. Sorry! Still free to move, "slave".
Click to expand...

And you don't get to just say something is "classified" because of the inconvenience it can cause you if people knew.
 
Ikari said:
The way it works is through intelligent and educating voting. But you're actively trying to remove that.
Click to expand...

That doesn't include classified information. You're not a decision maker.
 
So first you were saying you didn't know about the Times Square plot. Then you said I didn't tell you what my degree was in. Now you're saying the means and methods of acquiring intelligence isn't classified?




Wow.
 
OldWorldOrder said:
That doesn't include classified information. You're not a decision maker.
Click to expand...

And you seem to have a very convenient definition of "classified information" which prevents you from demonstrating your point.

Which means that you CANNOT DEMONSTRATE YOUR POINT. Which is what I've said from the start, and that you have proven through this continued interaction. You cannot prove your position. And yet, I'm supposed to accept it as proper even though you cannot defend it, support it, nor prove it. Words are wind, John Snow.

It all comes down to this. You are not a trustworthy source nor can you actually defend your actions. Instead you blindly push ignorance upon the populace and then have the gall to claim that this ignorant existence was intended by the Founders. For shame.

Only those with something to hide push for ignorance.
 
Ikari said:
And you seem to have a very convenient definition of "classified information" which prevents you from demonstrating your point.

Which means that you CANNOT DEMONSTRATE YOUR POINT. Which is what I've said from the start, and that you have proven through this continued interaction. You cannot prove your position. And yet, I'm supposed to accept it as proper even though you cannot defend it, support it, nor prove it. Words are wind, John Snow.

It all comes down to this. You are not a trustworthy source nor can you actually defend your actions. Instead you blindly push ignorance upon the populace and then have the gall to claim that this ignorant existence was intended by the Founders. For shame.

Only those with something to hide push for ignorance.
Click to expand...

Okay. Whatever you say. Too bad decision makers, people who know, disagree.

George Washington disagreed with your last line, too: “upon Secrecy, Success depends in Most Enterprises…and for want of it, they are generally defeated.” I wonder what he was trying to hide? Maybe just something dumb, like the time someone told him what his degree was in, he forgot, asked for the citation, and then ignored the citation while he whined about his country's form of government.
 
OldWorldOrder said:
Okay. Whatever you say. Too bad decision makers, people who know, disagree.

George Washington disagreed with your last line, too: “upon Secrecy, Success depends in Most Enterprises…and for want of it, they are generally defeated.” I wonder what he was trying to hide? Maybe just something dumb, like the time someone told him what his degree was in, he forgot, asked for the citation, and then ignored the citation while he whined about his country's form of government.
Click to expand...

It's a no-brainer that President Washington would say something like that considering the fact he was previously a General with wartime experience and who IIRC, started America's first spying apparatus. However, I'm skeptical that he'd give approval of blanket coverage on every American citizen that emits capturable information; instead, I believe he would come down on the side that CERTAIN Americans should be monitored.
 
Jango said:
It's a no-brainer that President Washington would say something like that considering the fact he was previously a General with wartime experience and who IIRC, started America's first spying apparatus. However, I'm skeptical that he'd give approval of blanket coverage on every American citizen that emits capturable information; instead, I believe he would come down on the side that CERTAIN Americans should be monitored.
Click to expand...

But, in three ways, blanket coverage isn't what we're talking about: 1- it's not what the NSA was doing, 2- Ikari is very much talking about how he needs access to classified information just...cause, and 3- he just said the only people that would want that type of secrecy are those trying to "hide something", which is as obvious literally as his implication is silly.
 
Ikari said:
When and where? Quote it. Can you? Or is this just another unsubstantiated claim. I'd like it if you could back up at least one thing you state. Can you? Come on, try it out.
Click to expand...

He did actually, a Masters in International Relations.
 
Henrin said:
You do realize they could only prove they stopped one terrorist threat, right?
Click to expand...

I do not believe you are the oversight of NSA and all is reported to you.
 
Deuce said:
When a terrorist attack on an airliner is stopped by the passengers, our security systems have failed.
Click to expand...

Which one are you referring to that was stopped by passengers? The shoe bomber or the failed explosive or ?
 
People have no clue how many dangerously crazy people there are and how many terror plots are prevented or fail for various reasons. Most that success goes to the private sector, local authorities, the CIA and FBI. I don't know how much the NSA involves in that level of domestic security.

Wars are decided by politicians and specifically the White House.
 
Deuce said:
When a terrorist attack on an airliner is stopped by the passengers, our security systems have failed.
Click to expand...

Or elevated to include amateurs that happen to be in the flight.
 
Ikari said:
Not only that, but the very essence of their argument is dishonest. It's the China argument. Essentially they will say we don't have the information to make an informed decision, but they also won't give us the information to make an informed decision. They keep everything cloaked, pretending the information is for them and them alone and oh how terrible it would be for us to know what they are doing. They are essentially trying to rig the system to force ignorance upon us and then claim that because we're ignorant we shouldn't be saying anything. It's the Catch 22, and a sign of an oppressive government.

Too bad some on that side do not have the intelligence to recognize this.
Click to expand...

Catch 22 | Define Catch 22 at Dictionary.com
 
joko104 said:
Which one are you referring to that was stopped by passengers? The shoe bomber or the failed explosive or ?
Click to expand...

Flight 93

Seriously??
 
joko104 said:
People have no clue how many dangerously crazy people there are and how many terror plots are prevented or fail for various reasons. Most that success goes to the private sector, local authorities, the CIA and FBI. I don't know how much the NSA involves in that level of domestic security.

Wars are decided by politicians and specifically the White House.
Click to expand...

The 'private sector'??

Seriously!?

So Taco Bell, Sears, and K-Mart are now active in preventing terrorism?

Do tell.
 
Ikari said:
He's just a man protecting his bread, nothing more. He cannot demonstrate any effect, he cannot show any benefit, all he can do is hide the truth in ignorance and claim the ignorance is justified. Those without argument are oft left to deception.
Click to expand...

But if OWD works in intelligence he cannot give you access to sensitive information such as the kind that you need Ikari. He would lose his job or worse: Charged with treason.

Others, unfriendlies, might get access to seeing this information. This is a public forum.
 
Ikari said:
Blah blah blah blah, "ask your representative even though you will not be given the information, statistics, and proof necessary to properly judge the actions and platform of your Representative, thus breaking the Republic".

Yes, I know the arguments of the tyrannical. I am merely asking if you have any proof of your arguments. If not, nothing you say should be taken with any amount of seriousness towards expert experience. If you're just a man trying to protect his lunch, then you'll say anything.

Proof, do you have it?
Click to expand...

Knowing that he must be secretive in order to defend his country from disclosing sensitive information in a public forum, how much can you trust a sheet of numbers ready to be statistically crunched into something meaningful for you to decide your representative?
 
DDD said:
Knowing that he must be secretive in order to defend his country from disclosing sensitive information in a public forum, how much can you trust a sheet of numbers ready to be statistically crunched into something meaningful for you to decide your representative?
Click to expand...

The point is he can't back up anything be is saying. So he's essentially using the "trust us, we know what we're doing, we're not doing anything bad, we're really protecting you" argument which is absolute crap. Without proof, you got nothing. Massive growth in government, large data mining and storage, massive spying against the People many times without warrant, and no data proving this had any effect. But I'm supposed to just take it because someone who's lunch depends on it says it's necessary.

To keep a free Republican requires an educated and informed People. There are just those amongst us looking to subvert that.
 
Ikari said:
The point is he can't back up anything be is saying. So he's essentially using the "trust us, we know what we're doing, we're not doing anything bad, we're really protecting you" argument which is absolute crap. Without proof, you got nothing. Massive growth in government, large data mining and storage, massive spying against the People many times without warrant, and no data proving this had any effect. But I'm supposed to just take it because someone who's lunch depends on it says it's necessary.

To keep a free Republican requires an educated and informed People. There are just those amongst us looking to subvert that.
Click to expand...

No, I'm saying trust your representatives or vote in someone you do. You don't get classified information. No ifs, ands, or buts. This is the system of government the US has. Change it via the voting booth, shut up and stop whining, or, in your words "GTFO".
 
Jango said:
It's a no-brainer that President Washington would say something like that considering the fact he was previously a General with wartime experience and who IIRC, started America's first spying apparatus. However, I'm skeptical that he'd give approval of blanket coverage on every American citizen that emits capturable information; instead, I believe he would come down on the side that CERTAIN Americans should be monitored.
Click to expand...

Exactly. And they use the fact that some things need to be secret to justify making everything secret. And then when you want to control the system and exert control it's all "you can't because you don't know", but they are specifically trying to make it so no one can know.

It's not a blank check as some would try to use it as.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom