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WIKILEAKS: U.S. Fought To Lower Minimum Wage In Haiti So Hanes And Levis Would Stay C

Re: WIKILEAKS: U.S. Fought To Lower Minimum Wage In Haiti So Hanes And Levis Would St

Are you serious? You really do believe the only corporations in existence are in the US? You really believe people/communities cannot create their own businesses?

Provide a list of players who are chompin at the bit to locate in Haiti. Shouldnt be that hard.
 
Re: WIKILEAKS: U.S. Fought To Lower Minimum Wage In Haiti So Hanes And Levis Would St

Which rather neatly (if obviously) sidesteps the actual question: is it right for the U.S. to pressure Haiti into keeping wages lower?
Haitians need jobs, not charity. The US is investing in Haiti's infrastructure....because without electricity many businesses couldn't locate there if they wanted to.

With a 50% illiteracy rate and 40% unemployment and half the country still reeling from the earthquake and cholera....low paying jobs are better than no jobs at all. Five dollars a day is $150 a month compared to $100 a year is huge step up for most Haitians. It's not perfect, but it's a start and much better than waiting for your kind contribution to a Haitian charity that only provides crap they don't need or want.
 
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Re: WIKILEAKS: U.S. Fought To Lower Minimum Wage In Haiti So Hanes And Levis Would St

That is not the point.

Then what is the point, Maggie? That the US got caught trying to help Haitians help themselves?
 
Re: WIKILEAKS: U.S. Fought To Lower Minimum Wage In Haiti So Hanes And Levis Would St

Where else are the corporations going to go for cheaper labor than Haitian labor?

Bangladesh, Vietnam, .....

"...At 200 Haitian gourdes ($5) a day, the national minimum wage is hardly riches. But that still works out to $150 a month, says Müller-Poitevien; in Bangladesh, it is $40.

Delatour adds that, Hope or not, Haiti has one clear advantage over Bangladesh: there is no child labour. The unstated reality is that there are too many unemployed Haitian adults fighting for the same job to allow entry to underage workers....."
Haiti's employment push turns to textiles as farming tradition uprooted | Rashmee Roshan Lall | Global development | theguardian.com
 
Re: WIKILEAKS: U.S. Fought To Lower Minimum Wage In Haiti So Hanes And Levis Would St

If you ask the Haitians what they would prefer...a priest named Aristides who is pro labor or a USA State Dept./CIA coup and a new supreme leader who is pro USA Corporate...which do you think they would chose?

Ask Haitians if they would prefer a job that pays $5 a day ...or job that pays $1 a day but with safety regulations....they would likely chose the $5 a day job. Laborers themselves have to make demands for higher wages and better working conditions and that means organizing and unions.

Where once labor in China was the lowest paid in the world...now they demanding higher wages and better working conditions and are part of growing middle class. The same is true for many other under developed emerging countries that had large uneducated labor pools and had to start their economies from scratch.
 
Re: WIKILEAKS: U.S. Fought To Lower Minimum Wage In Haiti So Hanes And Levis Would St

Then what is the point, Maggie? That the US got caught trying to help Haitians help themselves?

It is your opinion they were helped by that US intervention. Who the hell are we (as a government) to interfere? Perhaps our government would do much better by Haiti if they actually helped them recover from the 2010 earthquake as we've promised.

$1.3 billion was allocated to Haiti. $651 million was given to USAid to manage. Among other things, USAid promised over 15,000 homes. They've built 2,600. USAid hasn't even begun to build the port so crucial to Haiti's economic development. The projected had promised thousands of jobs.

Mismanagement of a crucial housing project, originally meant for up to 90,000 people. USAid has now reduced the number of those to benefit from new housing to about 3,200 to 15,900, from 75,000-90,000, at nearly double the original cost of $59m. The cost per house has soared nearly threefold from $8,000 per unit.
 
Re: WIKILEAKS: U.S. Fought To Lower Minimum Wage In Haiti So Hanes And Levis Would St

So you are against raising minimum wage in America for that same reason I guess.

The US is not an under developed country with 50% illiteracy rate and 40% unemployment. So no, I am not against raising the minium wage in the US ....nor I'm not against raising it in Haiti when their economy can sustain it like ours can.
 
Re: WIKILEAKS: U.S. Fought To Lower Minimum Wage In Haiti So Hanes And Levis Would St

Provide a list of players who are chompin at the bit to locate in Haiti. Shouldnt be that hard.

How about any company that wants to outsource to save money and increase profits? That is one of the silliest requests I have ever read on this forum (and I have seen a lot of them).

I want the Haitians to be self-sufficient, not dependent on slave wages.
 
Re: WIKILEAKS: U.S. Fought To Lower Minimum Wage In Haiti So Hanes And Levis Would St

If it means those people have a job when they otherwise would not, then yes, it is right.

Haiti clearly wished to improve their country in their own way, but we interfered not for the benefit of the employee but on behalf of the companies, and either way we'll never know now. It was completely inappropriate.
 
Re: WIKILEAKS: U.S. Fought To Lower Minimum Wage In Haiti So Hanes And Levis Would St

It is your opinion they were helped by that US intervention. Who the hell are we (as a government) to interfere? Perhaps our government would do much better by Haiti if they actually helped them recover from the 2010 earthquake as we've promised.
Who said they weren't? Haiti asked for US collaberation to help create jobs and long term economic growth.....not dependency on foreign aide.

$1.3 billion was allocated to Haiti. $651 million was given to USAid to manage. Among other things, USAid promised over 15,000 homes. They've built 2,600. USAid hasn't even begun to build the port so crucial to Haiti's economic development. The projected had promised thousands of jobs.
Many of the USAID projects are long term so the money wasn't all spent at once. But aside from substantial humanitarian assistance they have to build infrastructure such as electrical plants to help bring the country into the modern world. Most modern businesses require electricity in order to operate and without it Haiti stands little chance of attracting businesses and investments in that will help long term.

Haiti has a lot of issues and challenges to overcome and USAID is helping them to build a long term sustainable economy for themselves. Why is that so wrong?


Energy | U.S. Agency for International Development

Economic Growth and Trade | U.S. Agency for International Development

Agriculture and Food Security | U.S. Agency for International Development

Education | U.S. Agency for International Development
 
Re: WIKILEAKS: U.S. Fought To Lower Minimum Wage In Haiti So Hanes And Levis Would St

Then what is the point, Maggie? That the US got caught trying to help Haitians help themselves?

That concept is really condescending to the Haitian workers who were looking forward to improving their lives. It's what the Haitians wanted for themselves, and you don't get to make the claim that we were "helping them help themselves." Not credibly at least. It reminds me of complaints about the Iraq War, and one of the most common troll responses to them was to say "And aren't you grateful you live in a country where you're allowed to voice those complaints?" You might think you're being cute, but you're just demonstrating that you're hopelessly alienated from the needs and hopes of people in a different country.
 
Re: WIKILEAKS: U.S. Fought To Lower Minimum Wage In Haiti So Hanes And Levis Would St

Right, the wages are cheaper over there already... So why aren't they over there?

I don't know, why aren't they?
 
Re: WIKILEAKS: U.S. Fought To Lower Minimum Wage In Haiti So Hanes And Levis Would St

I don't know, why aren't they?

Maybe because higher wages aren't exactly the end of the world?
 
Re: WIKILEAKS: U.S. Fought To Lower Minimum Wage In Haiti So Hanes And Levis Would St

If you ask the Haitians what they would prefer...a job that only pays 31 cents an hour....or no job at all....which do you think they would chose?

At 61 cents an hour do you think Hanes would back up and leave? So who has cheaper labor?
 
Re: WIKILEAKS: U.S. Fought To Lower Minimum Wage In Haiti So Hanes And Levis Would St

That concept is really condescending to the Haitian workers who were looking forward to improving their lives. It's what the Haitians wanted for themselves, and you don't get to make the claim that we were "helping them help themselves." Not credibly at least. It reminds me of complaints about the Iraq War, and one of the most common troll responses to them was to say "And aren't you grateful you live in a country where you're allowed to voice those complaints?" You might think you're being cute, but you're just demonstrating that you're hopelessly alienated from the needs and hopes of people in a different country.

It is the 21st century version of "White Man's Burden."
 
Re: WIKILEAKS: U.S. Fought To Lower Minimum Wage In Haiti So Hanes And Levis Would St

That concept is really condescending to the Haitian workers who were looking forward to improving their lives. It's what the Haitians wanted for themselves, and you don't get to make the claim that we were "helping them help themselves." Not credibly at least. It reminds me of complaints about the Iraq War, and one of the most common troll responses to them was to say "And aren't you grateful you live in a country where you're allowed to voice those complaints?" You might think you're being cute, but you're just demonstrating that you're hopelessly alienated from the needs and hopes of people in a different country.

I think it's more condenscending to deny someone a job so they can support themselves and bring their families out of poverty, simply because the idea of a low wage offends your western sensibilities.


"...Hyder cited the example of a 45‐year‐old divorcee named Khadijah who works as a line manager at a factory. Khadijah raised her only child as a single parent, saving and providing for her daughter’s college tuition and tutoring by working full‐time for over 15 years, Hyder noted. “Her financial capabilities paved the road for her family’s social mobility – in three generations, Khadijah’s family had gone from rural housewife to blue‐collar working woman to college graduate,” Hyder said.

In a broader context, the textile industry – which did not really even exist in Bangladesh prior to the 1970s – has inadvertently spurred a mini-revolution of sorts in the country by prompting an exodus of poor rural women into cities, working at jobs, earning money and often becoming crucial financial providers for their families. “As garments workers, women are now earning salaries, participating in formal sector work, managing personal finances, encouraging their children to pursue higher education, and defying traditional marriage standards by marrying later,” Hyder wrote. “The garments industry has created the rise of financially independent and successful women in Bangladesh and is responsible for a dramatic shift in paradigm for Bangladeshi society. “
Despite Low Pay, Poor Work Conditions, Garment Factories Empowering Millions Of Bangladeshi Women
 
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Re: WIKILEAKS: U.S. Fought To Lower Minimum Wage In Haiti So Hanes And Levis Would St

I think it's more condenscending to deny someone a job so they can support themselves and bring their families out of poverty, simply because the idea of a low wage offends your western sensibilities.


"...Hyder cited the example of a 45‐year‐old divorcee named Khadijah who works as a line manager at a factory. Khadijah raised her only child as a single parent, saving and providing for her daughter’s college tuition and tutoring by working full‐time for over 15 years, Hyder noted. “Her financial capabilities paved the road for her family’s social mobility – in three generations, Khadijah’s family had gone from rural housewife to blue‐collar working woman to college graduate,” Hyder said.

In a broader context, the textile industry – which did not really even exist in Bangladesh prior to the 1970s – has inadvertently spurred a mini-revolution of sorts in the country by prompting an exodus of poor rural women into cities, working at jobs, earning money and often becoming crucial financial providers for their families. “As garments workers, women are now earning salaries, participating in formal sector work, managing personal finances, encouraging their children to pursue higher education, and defying traditional marriage standards by marrying later,” Hyder wrote. “The garments industry has created the rise of financially independent and successful women in Bangladesh and is responsible for a dramatic shift in paradigm for Bangladeshi society. “
Despite Low Pay, Poor Work Conditions, Garment Factories Empowering Millions Of Bangladeshi Women

You're arguing against minimum wage in general, which you won't get any agreement from me on. You apparently are unaware of why we created those laws in the first place. But besides that, you're still denying another country's right to choose their own path for themselves. That's condescending.
 
Re: WIKILEAKS: U.S. Fought To Lower Minimum Wage In Haiti So Hanes And Levis Would St

You're arguing against minimum wage in general, which you won't get any agreement from me on. You apparently are unaware of why we created those laws in the first place. But besides that, you're still denying another country's right to choose their own path for themselves. That's condescending.

The OP is about Haiti and that is what I am discussing. If you want to talk about minimum wage in a highly developed country like the US then start another thread.
 
Re: WIKILEAKS: U.S. Fought To Lower Minimum Wage In Haiti So Hanes And Levis Would St

Haiti clearly wished to improve their country in their own way, but we interfered not for the benefit of the employee but on behalf of the companies, and either way we'll never know now. It was completely inappropriate.

No, it has come out that the US companies didn't lobby for lower wages. The idea that they were angry about the increase in minimum wages and the implication that they would have pulled out of Haiti with a wage increase are lies. Nation Magazine has said as much and claims that their article was misinterpreted.

The State Dept. intervened at the request of the Haitian big shots.
 
Re: WIKILEAKS: U.S. Fought To Lower Minimum Wage In Haiti So Hanes And Levis Would St

Haiti clearly wished to improve their country in their own way, but we interfered not for the benefit of the employee but on behalf of the companies, and either way we'll never know now. It was completely inappropriate.

Why don't you provide some evidence that US interefered with Haiti's wish for economic improvement?
 
Re: WIKILEAKS: U.S. Fought To Lower Minimum Wage In Haiti So Hanes And Levis Would St

Why don't you provide some evidence that US interefered with Haiti's wish for economic improvement?

Then what is the point, Maggie? That the US got caught trying to help Haitians help themselves?

Actually, why don't you provide evidence that's what they did, since you clearly accepted the premise of the OP right up until Lowdown's post?
 
Re: WIKILEAKS: U.S. Fought To Lower Minimum Wage In Haiti So Hanes And Levis Would St

Actually, why don't you provide evidence that's what they did, since you clearly accepted the premise of the OP right up until Lowdown's post?

I'm not the one claiming that US is interfering in Haiti's economic development or going against their wishes.....you are. So why don't you provide the evidence for your claim?
 
Re: WIKILEAKS: U.S. Fought To Lower Minimum Wage In Haiti So Hanes And Levis Would St

I'm not the one claiming that US is interfering in Haiti's economic development or going against their wishes.....you are. So why don't you provide the evidence for your claim?

As soon as you provide evidence first, seeing as, again, right up until Lowdown's post, you accepted that premise.
 
Re: WIKILEAKS: U.S. Fought To Lower Minimum Wage In Haiti So Hanes And Levis Would St

How about any company that wants to outsource to save money and increase profits? That is one of the silliest requests I have ever read on this forum (and I have seen a lot of them).

I want the Haitians to be self-sufficient, not dependent on slave wages.

You made a claim, now back it up.
 
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