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Russia warns could 'reduce to zero' economic dependency on US

Can Russia financially hurt the USA?

  • Total voters
    19
  • Poll closed .
Consider the following:

Neither the United States nor anyone else is going to get into a war over who controls Crimea. And if Obama proposes economic sanctions, he'll find himself pretty much going it alone.

Russia, as the world's third-largest producer of both oil and natural gas, is just too important for most countries to play economic hardball with. The Western European nations who are most dismayed by Putin's adventuring in Ukraine are also the least able to do anything about it: More than a third of their natural gas is supplied by Russia.

Fortunately, Obama has some options that won't require him to ask Congress for a supplemental appropriation for red-paint thinner. Without risking a life or spending a penny, he can bring crushing pressure to bear on Putin. All he's got to do is borrow a page from Ronald Reagan's foreign-policy playbook.

Snip...

Reagan's military confrontations with Putin's Soviet predecessors - the contras, the mujahedeen, Star Wars - are well-known. But his most effective policy is less remembered: Reagan relentlessly jawboned Saudi Arabia to boost its oil production.

That increased supply and decreased prices, ripping the heart out of Moscow's oil-export business, sent its already shaky economy into a tailspin. Less than a decade later, the Soviet Union collapsed.

Obama can do the same thing to Putin, without even asking for help from Saudi Arabia. All he has to do is stop interfering with the U.S. production of natural gas through fracking, and stop blocking construction of the Keystone XL oil pipeline.
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Glenn Garvin: How to strike at Putin where it hurts | Opinion | McClatchy DC
 
Peter Grimm said:
The EU depends on Russia for natural gas.

Natural gas requires infrastructure, it's not like they can "get oil from somewhere else" like you laughably say. You need things like pipelines and distribution networks. Right now, Europe's only option is Russia.
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Right, and like everyone else you're only looking at half of the equation.

Russia's oil and natural gas industry, with the EU as her primary export partner, brings in 30% of the country’s GDP and 60% of its export earnings.

Can Russia afford to lose that?

Can Putin allow that to happen and not have a 21st century Russian Revolution on his hands?

Russia has Europe by the balls.
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And Europe has Russia by the balls.

Or maybe neither has the other by the balls?

Maybe they're just deeply involved in a more-or-less exclusive economic relationship that neither can afford to screw up and neither intends to over some white trash bull**** like Ukraine.

That's why I've been saying from day 1 that Obama's economic threats are hollow and were a dumb idea to begin with.

What a joke this administration is.
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Oh please, every Republican within marathon distance of a microphone these last couple days has been falling all over himself to run his suck about how evil Russia is and how we need to bring her to heel.

If we had some bellicose, idiot Republican in office the hollow rhetoric would have been ten times as loud, ten times as fast, and would probably also include hollow military threats to boot; or worse, real military threats that would end up getting American kids killed to defend the asshole hole of the world from some illusory Russian invasion that most of the Ukrainian population actually probably favors.

Now, mind you, I agree that President Obama and his administration are a joke.

I just think that the alternative would be a bigger joke.

I can't imagine that glad-handing douchebag Romney having to handle this.

He'd have a bunch of chickenhawk retards chattering in his ear and next thing you know the CIA would be sending truckloads of MANPADS to ultra-right-wing Western Ukrainian "freedom fighters" that we'll see on the State Department's terrorist organizations list in 10 years.
 
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Peter Grimm said:
We should have put reinforcements in Kiev yesterday. Negotiate from a position of strength.
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Oh Jesus Christ.

Forget I engaged in a conversation with you.

This kind of irrational, school-yard nonsense response to something that isn't any of our ****ing business is why I thank God every day that we've got a spineless idiot in the White House rather than an idiot who would gladly sacrifice 10,000 American lives to defend nothing, but look like a Wild West tough guy doing.
 
EdwinWillers said:
No argument there. It's something we should've (could've) been working on for years now - and would've were it not for the yahoo in the WH now.
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We are working on it. I'm personally involved to an extent. It's just a big project, and nobody really saw a crisis like this coming.
 
soot said:
Right, and like everyone else you're only looking at half of the equation.

Russia's oil and natural gas industry, with the EU as her primary export partner, brings in 30% of the country’s GDP and 60% of its export earnings.

Can Russia afford to lose that?

Can Putin allow that to happen and not have a 21st century Russian Revolution on his hands?



And Europe has Russia by the balls.

Or maybe neither has the other by the balls?

Maybe they're just deeply involved in a more-or-less exclusive economic relationship that neither can afford to screw up and neither intends to over some white trash bull**** like Ukraine.



Oh please, every Republican within marathon distance of a microphone these last couple days has been falling all over himself to run his suck about how evil Russia is and how we need to bring her to heel.

If we had some bellicose, idiot Republican in office the hollow rhetoric would have been ten times as loud, ten times as fast, and would probably also include hollow military threats to boot; or worse, real military threats that would end up getting American kids killed to defend the asshole hole of the world from some illusory Russian invasion that most of the Ukrainian population actually probably favors.

Now, mind you, I agree that President Obama and his administration are a joke.

I just think that the alternative would be a bigger joke.

I can't imagine that glad-handing douchebag Romney having to handle this.

He'd have a bunch of chickenhawk retards chattering in his ear and next thing you know the CIA would be sending truckloads of MANPADS to ultra-right-wing Western Ukrainian "freedom fighters" that we'll see on the State Department's terrorist organizations list in 10 years.
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The Russians have always respected Republicans, and they've always walked all over the Democrats. Clinton was the only exception. They tried to walk all over Kennedy too, but he stood up to them.

Russians respond to strength, and when you negotiate with them you must negotiate from a position of power. Read Kissinger. Obama's problem is that he's negotiating from a weak position and the Russians know it.

As for who needs whom.... yeah Russia enjoys the money from the EU, but who's gonna suffer more.... EU without energy or Russia without a few Euros? Russia can print more money and get by in the short term. Europeans will freeze the rest of this winter. I think the Russians have the upper hand.

Which is precisely why the USA is doing all the talking and the EU is staying quiet. They're gonna owe us big time for this.
 
soot said:
Oh Jesus Christ.

Forget I engaged in a conversation with you.

This kind of irrational, school-yard nonsense response to something that isn't any of our ****ing business is why I thank God every day that we've got a spineless idiot in the White House rather than an idiot who would gladly sacrifice 10,000 American lives to defend nothing, but look like a Wild West tough guy doing.
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What a narrow minded approach to the situation. You'd think we live in a bubble or something. Fact check.... we need to protect Europe from Russian incursion. If Russia can take Ukraine and we do absolutely nothing, then why not take Poland? Why not take Germany? We have to make a stand somewhere.

If you let Russia control Europe, then they are the global superpower, not us. You want to live in a Russian world?

But your small-minded outlook is playing checkers while the Russians are playing chess.

And yes, when you're in a negotiation you need to be holding some cards. Otherwise you're just begging. Obama is a spineless wimp, he clearly won't do anything in response to Russia's aggression, so they remain in Crimea and make themselves right at home. If we're not careful, they will take the rest of Ukraine as well.

The only reason they haven't yet is because the Ukrainians, not the Americans, would fight back. What's Obama gonna do in that case?
 
Peter Grimm said:
WE are fine, WE don't need Russia at all, the EUROPEANS are not. THEY need Russia. Get it?
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Yeah. Funny thing about that whole oil market/world currency thing. When you have Russia, maybe Iran, and maybe China all on the same page...well...you are at risk. Europe is at risk. I dont know if it is even a viable threat, but it should cause people to at least have an action plan in place just in case.
 
great, another escalation in the international dick measuring contest.

meanwhile, bridges and roads and stuff? yeah.
 
VanceMack said:
Yeah. Funny thing about that whole oil market/world currency thing. When you have Russia, maybe Iran, and maybe China all on the same page...well...you are at risk. Europe is at risk. I dont know if it is even a viable threat, but it should cause people to at least have an action plan in place just in case.
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Obama is blowing this about as badly as can be. People should really think twice next time when they vote for a president just because he seems "cool" or whatever their stupid reasons were for being asleep at the wheel.

Look at where we are now. Russia is basically threatening to drag China and the Middle Eastern countries in to this. Odds are, they won't join the fight, but what if they did?

I said a few days ago that there was about a 15% chance that this situation escalates to WW3. I'm now up to 15-20% chance.
 
polgara said:
He won't do it, though, because he doesn't want the "greenies" whining and pouting, and threatening not to back him. :lol:

Greetings, RM. :2wave:
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Yo Polgara. :2wave:

Just thought I'd pitch in a possible solution. I think it's more like Obama is turning green with envy. ;) Putin it Putin on quite a show... :lol:
 
Peter Grimm said:
Obama is blowing this about as badly as can be. People should really think twice next time when they vote for a president just because he seems "cool" or whatever their stupid reasons were for being asleep at the wheel.

Look at where we are now. Russia is basically threatening to drag China and the Middle Eastern countries in to this. Odds are, they won't join the fight, but what if they did?

I said a few days ago that there was about a 15% chance that this situation escalates to WW3. I'm now up to 15-20% chance.
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If you'd just send me your GPS coordinates, I'll send a tow truck with a winch to pull the head out of the sand, if that's the problem. I'm pretty sure you'll find CIA intrigue behind this whole problem and maybe a whole coterie of Republicans. Maybe this instability is exactly what the CIA wants. Isn't it one hell of a coincidence that this whole problem is at an intersection of energy distribution and in the Big Energy Corporations's interests. We really should send Russia some money to help them resolve this mess we've created. In the meantime, disconnect from that pipeline connected to the Mass Media Mindbender channel and seek reality. I could send a bottle of Two Buck Chuck if the problems seem insoluble.
 
Ha, I love Two Buck Chuck!
 
DaveFagan said:
Russia has $200 billion in US bonds and could dump them to drop US Dollar value. Russia is the World's largest energy exporter and could price its' energy in Rubles and reduce demand for the US Petrodollar. Russia runs a surplus not a debt as the USA does. I think Putin usually does what's best for Russia and gives the World the finger regarding
hypocritical accusations of Imperialism, expansion, etc. We are the ones that screwed Russia after the breakup of the USSR by encroaching upon Russia with NATO, missile bases and economic interference (a la Ukraine). If you check the inputs for all those pipelines bottlenecked through Ukraine, you will observe that the pipelines are filled with Russian petro. I wonder who controls the valves at the input? It's the typical Russian bear and do you want to poke the bear with a short stick in the bear's own badkyard? It doesn't require rocket science to analyze the problems and solutions for the Ukraine. I, for one, trust Putin and see in all the dealings since the USSR breakup that the USA has been dealing from the bottom of the deck.
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Deuce said:
Then why haven't they done so already?
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The reason Russia hasn't dropped the US dollar is because it would hurt them, far more than us. Now Russia, combined with some help from the Chinese, could rock our Casbah. The US would simply use the FED to cover any bond shortages. Writing off debt is our magic trick. We don't do enough direct business with Russia to be overly affected.

This is still a small amount compared to what we trade with Europe, Asia and South America.

The United States is working vigorously to expand bilateral trade and investment cooperation to benefit both Russia and the United States. Over the past three years, the positive atmosphere resulting from the “reset” of bilateral relations has led to an unprecedented advance in economic cooperation between our countries. From 2009 to 2011, U.S. exports to Russia rose 57 percent and total U.S.-Russia trade increased over 80 percent. U.S. companies reported numerous major business deals in Russia in 2012, including the ExxonMobil-Rosneft deal in May for exploration in the Arctic shelf, Boeing’s $15 billion in aircraft sales in Russia over the past five years, and Ex-Im Bank’s June MOU signing with Sberbank, Russia’s largest bank, to support up to $1 billion in exports to Russia.

Russia
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Here's why they're getting upset with our meddling in their backyard, and why we have to be careful to not act too aggressively, giving the Chinese reason to economically favor Russia. That whole "democracy, humanitarian, peace efforts" by NATO is nothing but a geopolitical strategy for energy resources.


Russia's key policy goal is blocking American efforts to shape the region.

Russia doesn't believe revolutions, wars and regime change bring stability and democracy. It often points to the Arab Spring and the U.S.-led war in Iraq as evidence.

Russia also doesn't trust U.S. intentions in the region. It believes humanitarian concerns are often used an excuse for pursuing America's own political and economic interests.

"Russia's backing of (Syrian President Bashar) al-Assad is driven by the need to preserve its naval presence in the Mediterranean, secure its energy contracts, and counter the West on 'regime change'".

China is a permanent member of the U.N. Security Council. And like Russia, China has repeatedly blocked sanctions attempts against the Syrian regime -- leading to a perpetual stalemate at the U.N. body to take any serious action on Syria.

Why Russia, Iran and China are standing by Syria - CNN.com
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Russia seems to wish it's own course, away from the world community. The most important step in accomplishing this would be economic separation...unfortunately for the country, it is likely to lead to great difficulty for the population. I doubt Putin is ignorant enough to ignore the long term implications, and risk revolution from the people...they have it bad enough as it is.
 
DaveFagan said:
Russia has $200 billion in US bonds and could dump them to drop US Dollar value. Russia is the World's largest energy exporter and could price its' energy in Rubles and reduce demand for the US Petrodollar. Russia runs a surplus not a debt as the USA does. I think Putin usually does what's best for Russia and gives the World the finger regarding
hypocritical accusations of Imperialism, expansion, etc. We are the ones that screwed Russia after the breakup of the USSR by encroaching upon Russia with NATO, missile bases and economic interference (a la Ukraine). If you check the inputs for all those pipelines bottlenecked through Ukraine, you will observe that the pipelines are filled with Russian petro. I wonder who controls the valves at the input? It's the typical Russian bear and do you want to poke the bear with a short stick in the bear's own badkyard? It doesn't require rocket science to analyze the problems and solutions for the Ukraine. I, for one, trust Putin and see in all the dealings since the USSR breakup that the USA has been dealing from the bottom of the deck.

Russia has $200 billion in US bonds and could dump them to drop US Dollar value. Russia is the World's largest energy exporter and could price its' energy in Rubles and reduce demand for the US Petrodollar. Russia runs a surplus not a debt as the USA does. I think Putin usually does what's best for Russia and gives the World the finger regarding
hypocritical accusations of Imperialism, expansion, etc. We are the ones that screwed Russia after the breakup of the USSR by encroaching upon Russia with NATO, missile bases and economic interference (a la Ukraine). If you check the inputs for all those pipelines bottlenecked through Ukraine, you will observe that the pipelines are filled with Russian petro. I wonder who controls the valves at the input? It's the typical Russian bear and do you want to poke the bear with a short stick in the bear's own badkyard? It doesn't require rocket science to analyze the problems and solutions for the Ukraine. I, for one, trust Putin and see in all the dealings since the USSR breakup that the USA has been dealing from the bottom of the deck.



According to the below article, it's highly improbable.
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This is silly. Russia's "$200 billion in US debt" is part of it's strategically built foreign currency/exchange reserves. The value of this reserve forms a critical part of Russia's ability to meet financial crisis, stabilize the ruble, and enable banks to meet obligations in a dollar dominated global economy. Even if they did decide to go on a suicidal liquidation spree the result of a measly $200 billion being offloaded at once would result in mild damage and interest rate spikes before stabilizing while simultaneously resulting in the loss of billions for Russia by slashing the value of the debt instruments Russia allegedly wants to sell. Or they can dribble it out still lose their reserves and do no damage at all.

Yay!
 
soot said:
Oh Jesus Christ.

Forget I engaged in a conversation with you.

This kind of irrational, school-yard nonsense response to something that isn't any of our ****ing business is why I thank God every day that we've got a spineless idiot in the White House rather than an idiot who would gladly sacrifice 10,000 American lives to defend nothing, but look like a Wild West tough guy doing.
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He's absolutely right, and if you think putting troops in Kiev and Odessa both of which are several hundred miles from the closest Russian military position is the equivalent of 'sacrificing 10,000 American lives' you are the one engaging in school yard hyperbole. The point is to establish a NATO tripwire and prevent a Russian advance from cresting any further than those locations. I don't think you need to send troops quite yet but we should be mobilizing and making demonstrative movements on the border ahead of our Article 4 consultations with Poland.
 
Peter Grimm said:
The EU depends on Russia for natural gas.

Natural gas requires infrastructure, it's not like they can "get oil from somewhere else" like you laughably say. You need things like pipelines and distribution networks. Right now, Europe's only option is Russia.

Russia has Europe by the balls. That's why I've been saying from day 1 that Obama's economic threats are hollow and were a dumb idea to begin with.

What a joke this administration is.
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We're all anxiously awaiting your soloution, your ideas. c
 
Sherman123 said:
This is silly. Russia's "$200 billion in US debt" is part of it's strategically built foreign currency/exchange reserves. The value of this reserve forms a critical part of Russia's ability to meet financial crisis, stabilize the ruble, and enable banks to meet obligations in a dollar dominated global economy. Even if they did decide to go on a suicidal liquidation spree the result of a measly $200 billion being offloaded at once would result in mild damage and interest rate spikes before stabilizing while simultaneously resulting in the loss of billions for Russia by slashing the value of the debt instruments Russia allegedly wants to sell. Or they can dribble it out still lose their reserves and do no damage at all.

Yay!
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Careful. You're ruining Dave's 'the sky is falling and the Russians win' prediction. Wishful thinking on his part.
 
Sherman123 said:
He's absolutely right, and if you think putting troops in Kiev and Odessa both of which are several hundred miles from the closest Russian military position is the equivalent of 'sacrificing 10,000 American lives' you are the one engaging in school yard hyperbole. The point is to establish a NATO tripwire and prevent a Russian advance from cresting any further than those locations. I don't think you need to send troops quite yet but we should be mobilizing and making demonstrative movements on the border ahead of our Article 4 consultations with Poland.
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Really? I can't see that that's necessary, for the US for sure and probably not NATO either. Putins done what he needed to, things will calm, nobody was killed, Ukrainian infrastructure wasn't harmed, things are fine.
 
Sherman123 said:
This is silly. Russia's "$200 billion in US debt" is part of it's strategically built foreign currency/exchange reserves. The value of this reserve forms a critical part of Russia's ability to meet financial crisis, stabilize the ruble, and enable banks to meet obligations in a dollar dominated global economy. Even if they did decide to go on a suicidal liquidation spree the result of a measly $200 billion being offloaded at once would result in mild damage and interest rate spikes before stabilizing while simultaneously resulting in the loss of billions for Russia by slashing the value of the debt instruments Russia allegedly wants to sell. Or they can dribble it out still lose their reserves and do no damage at all.

Yay!
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The question of the poll regards Russia's ability to cause harm to the USA economy and I see that you agree, even though it might be painful for them. We don't usually agree, I'm surprised. Now about that 6,000,000 barrels of OIL per day that might be sold in Rubles reducing demand for the USDollar. I hope your ears are not as limited as your comprehension and the math works for you. You can use a $100 a barrel to make the math easier. Don't forget to connect the feeding tube from the Mighty Wurlitzer so you can get your talking points. Don't pay no attention to them that says the USA and Nuland worked inside the coup. Don't pay no attention to Ashton conversation regarding protestor aligned snipers did all the shooting. Don't pay no attention to the super coincidence that Nuland's annoited becomes the new leader as planned. Heavens to Murgatroyd and don't be blaspheming the EU for wanting a deal that develues Ukrainian currency. Think really bad thoughts about those nasty Russians selling Ukraine Natural Gas at nearly half of World Market value and saving the peasants and peons money and loaning $15 billion without devaluing the currency to raise costs to each and every Ukrainian. Youza, Bubba, you surely got it goin' on, or not.
 
tecoyah said:
Russia seems to wish it's own course, away from the world community. The most important step in accomplishing this would be economic separation...unfortunately for the country, it is likely to lead to great difficulty for the population. I doubt Putin is ignorant enough to ignore the long term implications, and risk revolution from the people...they have it bad enough as it is.
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I'd like links proving how bad things are in Russia. Perhaps Russia and Putin don't see the NWO (New World Order) as a desirable option. Idon't, so I'm not surprised by the thought. The NWO is the definition of a World Corporatocracy runs by teh paper pushers. Those are industries not associated with labor. Labor is moving dirt, moving bricks, moving steel, moving mountains and developing infrastructure to move all obstacles. Bankers, brokers, hedge funds, etc. move paper, notice no dirt, bricks, mountains, etc. The biggest reason Russia will not intitate action to damage the USDollar is because it damages the World economy of which Russia is a part. Putin has to be aware that the fragile nature of the overextended fiat currency and unlimited printing of debt has trapped the Banking World in a morass that remains intact because all parties have to support the US Dollar to prevent a WorldWide crash. On the other hand, it is available as a weapon. Remember that it is only "CONFIDENCE" that allows Fiat Currency to survive. It is backed by nothing. Airballs. No Gold, No Silver. A vibrant economy with positive tax collections keeps a Fiat Currency alive with "CONFIDENCE" and I haven't seen any of that here in the USA. As a matter of fact, all the numerical indicators are negative since the beginning of the GW Bush Great Depression and the financial legerdemain that has followed. If Obama continues to treat Russia like an ugly stepchild there will be hell to pay. Russia had enough money to waste $50 billion on the Sochi Olympics, successfully, I might add. I still view all of Russia's actions in Ukraine/Crimea in the best interests of Ukraine. The Ukraine needs the EU about as much as I need debilitating disease. Russia discounted gas to Ukraine. Russia loaned Ukraine $15 billion with bonds as collateral. No other Nation, or group of Nations has actually helped Ukraine.
 
EdwinWillers said:
Seems to me we've plenty of resources on our own, if we'd just get off our political dairy-aires to exploit them properly. Let's go out and build our oil and natural gas resources as we ought, putting what, some estimated 50,000 people to work in the process, and drive down the price of oil and natural gas - prices Russia NEEDS to be as high as possible to fund their government - and let's bring them to their knees economically (again), while kick-starting our economy, making us independent on foreign oil and put a stop to this nonsense.
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Yes, but we have our EU allies to worry about. This is a team effort.
 
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