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Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended [W:148:245]

Re: Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended

haymarket said:
This site is about debate - even uses that term in its identifying name and title. Debate is debate is debate regardless if it is formal like a collegiate debate or here. Billy Shakespeare said something about a rose and it applies to debate also.
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How about this post as evidence of how seriously you take debate here?

haymarket said:
Republicans care about one thing and only one thing - more money in their own pockets. Everything else is just lipstick on the pig.
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Obviously you seem to understand the difference between informal and formal debate as you seem just as comfortable making gratuitous assertions on this forum as Fletch does.

I could not care less. I simply insist on proper procedures and insist that those telling me what I believe back up their statements with verifiable proof.

That is my position now regarding people telling me what my beliefs or positions are.

That has always been my position regarding people telling me what my beliefs or positions are.

That will continue to be my position in the future regarding people telling me what my beliefs or positions are.

I am more than happy to discuss my beliefs or positions. Just quote them to me to make sure they are before you go telling me what they are. otherwise- you got nothing except the musings inside your own head. And that is verifiable evidence of nothing about my views or positions.
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Well that is absurdly false because you have now spent a lot of effort not answering a question asking you what your beliefs actually are. It sure seems like a question that is easier to answer than to avoid.
 
Re: Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended

jmotivator said:
How about this post as evidence of how seriously you take debate here?



Obviously you seem to understand the difference between informal and formal debate as you seem just as comfortable making gratuitous assertions on this forum as Fletch does.



Well that is absurdly false because you have now spent a lot of effort not answering a question asking you what your beliefs actually are. It sure seems like a question that is easier to answer than to avoid.
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And I will continue to spend as much time as it takes to educate people about the responsibility of backing up their claims against me. I will gladly make 100 posts to educate others about the responsibility of supporting their claims about my beliefs or positions than spend a single post bailing them out and relieving them of their own responsibilities.

I am more than happy to concede that my statement about Republicans and money is my personal opinion and not a claim of absolute fact. The most of what goes on here falls into that category and that is fine no matter if it comes from others or from myself. But when somebody makes a claim about what I or anyone else here believes or what their positions are - that is a claim of fact that must be proven with verifiable evidence.
 
Re: Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended

haymarket said:
And I will continue to spend as much time as it takes to educate people about the responsibility of backing up their claims against me. I will gladly make 100 posts to educate others about the responsibility of supporting their claims about my beliefs or positions than spend a single post bailing them out and relieving them of their own responsibilities.
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You are a hypocrite who thinks he is being cunning in dodging a direct question on the grounds of proper debate decorum while defending your own statements because....

I am more than happy to concede that my statement about Republicans and money is my personal opinion and not a claim of absolute fact. The most of what goes on here falls into that category and that is fine no matter if it comes from others or from myself. But when somebody makes a claim about what I or anyone else here believes or what their positions are - that is a claim of fact that must be proven with verifiable evidence.
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.... this isn't formal debate.

So since you conceded your goofy pretense of formal, can you finally answer Fletch's question?
 
Re: Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended

jmotivator said:
You are a hypocrite who thinks he is being cunning in dodging a direct question on the grounds of proper debate decorum while defending your own statements because....



.... this isn't formal debate.

So since you conceded your goofy pretense of formal, can you finally answer Fletch's question?
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This is debate. The title of the site says so.

What is there about my very clear explanation that you still do not comprehend?
 
Re: Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended

haymarket said:
This is debate. The title of the site says so.

What is there about my very clear explanation that you still do not comprehend?
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As I said, you claim discussions here are formal debate when you want them to be, but not when you don't want it to be. You voice an opinion of a whole group of people and you think it's fine, then throw a tantrum when someone dares have an opinion of you.

Here is my opinion: I find your double standard to be hypocritical.

Fletch made a statement that is his opinion of you. You have done nothing to dissuade him of that opinion. Your attempts to make authoritative declarations of what Fletch's responsibility is to prove that opinion based on your college debate prowess is laughable. You can prove Fletch's opinion false simply by stating that you beliefs do not match his opinion. I am now convinced that you won't do that because he is correct in his opinion.
 
Re: Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended

Top Cat said:
Guns in schools are no laughing matter, I suspect we can all agree on that? While a 3 day suspension is ridiculous, a consequence of some sort is fair. I suspect the true spirit of the idea was to remove even "joking" about guns from schools. I have no problem with that idea whatsoever.
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In the 90's at my high school it was write common to see pick ups with guns in the gun racks. Hunter education was an elective. As a kid we played cops and robbers cowboys and indians... army games. I was "shot" alot. Really the problem here is cravwn adults and schools afraid of getting sued. Guns arent the problem
 
Re: Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended

jmotivator said:
As I said, you claim discussions here are formal debate when you want them to be, but not when you don't want it to be. You voice an opinion of a whole group of people and you think it's fine, then throw a tantrum when someone dares have an opinion of you.
.
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nope
never made that claim.

I could not care less about your opinion of me or any standard you have convinced yourself I hold.

What I do care about is when somebody slanders me with statements about what I believe or support or what my position is and then they are impotent to actually back up the accusations with verifiable evidence that they are indeed my positions.

The real question now becomes why you are unable to do just that?
 
Re: Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended

haymarket said:
nope
never made that claim.
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Of course you did. You made that claim when you decided to try and spell out what Fletch's responsibilities are based on your years of collegiate debate:

haymarket said:
I was trained in collegiate debate. I debated in college for two years all over this nation against some of the best. We were trained to always understand that it is the complete and total responsibility of the person making the allegation to support that claim with verifiable evidence. When they cannot do that, simply pointing out their failure scores the matter in your favor.
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Why would you make that argument if you didn't think you were in a formal debate? And then why did you break those very rules in your own gratuitous assertion? Answer: Because you are a hypocrite.

I could not care less about your opinion of me or any standard you have convinced yourself I hold.
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I didn't figure you would. But, as is the case in all internet arguments, most of the statements are for the observers since the particulars in an argument rarely sway one another over. I figured it was time in the discussion to make it clear what my opinion actually was.

What I do care about is when somebody slanders me with statements about what I believe or support or what my position is and then they are impotent to actually back up the accusations with verifiable evidence that they are indeed my positions.
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So saying that you believe in wealth redistribution is slander?

The real question now becomes why you are unable to do just that?
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Because I don't need to. Your actions have satisfied my curiosity.
 
Re: Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended

jmotivator said:
Of course you did.
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nope - never did. And I explained everything at least four times already. It is the total and sole responsibility of anyone making charges about what another believes to prove them with evidence.

If you want to get infracted for daring to defy previous warnings - but I prefer not to.
 
Re: Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended

haymarket said:
nope - never did. And I explained everything at least four times already. It is the total and sole responsibility of anyone making charges about what another believes to prove them with evidence.

If you want to get infracted for daring to defy previous warnings - but I prefer not to.
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So, you state that if someone has evidence of a claim you would be happy to discuss it, yet here I offer you the passage that I formed my opinion on and you just dodge it as readily as you did Fletch's question. And you don't just refuse to discuss the quote in question, but you now threaten to report me. Again, you aren't as open to discussing your posts as you think you are.

What was the point of bringing up college debate rules that you think Fletch should follow if you don't believe you and Fletch are engaged in a formal debate? Answer: There wasn't one.

Anyway, you have satisfied my curiosity and assisted in me forming my opinion. If you want to report me for having an opinion then just go ahead. From history moderators aren't any happier with threatening people with reporting them than they are at whatever it is you think I have done.
 
Re: Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended

SMTA said:
Since the school had already adopted the policy, and presumably was not challenged, then the parents deserve the aftermath.

Stupid **** like this needs to be nipped in the bud immediately, not after the fact.
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I agree with this, unfortunately I think that the moment to nip it in the bud is already gone by the time these idiots get their teaching diplomas. ;)
 
Re: Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended

Moderator's Warning:
Hay and J - knock it off.
 
Re: Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended

thank you.
 
Re: Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended

jmotivator said:
I agree with this, unfortunately I think that the moment to nip it in the bud is already gone by the time these idiots get their teaching diplomas. ;)
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Teachers do NOT make these sort of policy decisions. They are made by state legislators, boards of education or school administration. Teachers are simply told what field to pick the cotton in and how to do it.
 
Re: Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended

haymarket said:
Why do you find reality so upsetting? My point was a simple one and a valid one that you are not disputing. War crimes trials from World War 2 have nothing to do with it.
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I suppose it's the difference between one who believes in mindlessly following orders from any alleged authority, no matter how senseless, harmful, or otherwise wrong; and one who believes in personal responsibility, judgement, and ethics.
 
Re: Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended

Bob Blaylock said:
I suppose it's the difference between one who believes in mindlessly following orders from any alleged authority, no matter how senseless, harmful, or otherwise wrong; and one who believes in personal responsibility, judgement, and ethics.
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Actually it is the difference in one carrying out the legitimate duties of a job working for the public where policy was formed by the elected representatives of the people and going off half cocked believing that you are god and answerable to nobody.
 
Re: Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended

haymarket said:
Actually it is the difference in one carrying out the legitimate duties of a job working for the public where policy was formed by the elected representatives of the people and going off half cocked believing that you are god and answerable to nobody.
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Whose interests is a teacher or other school employee supposed to be serving, anyway? Those of the student and/or his parents, or those of bureaucrats and politicians? If he is ordered by a bureaucrat or politician to act against the interest of his students, should he follow that order?
 
Re: Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended

Bob Blaylock said:
Whose interests is a teacher or other school employee supposed to be serving, anyway? Those of the student and/or his parents, or those of bureaucrats and politicians?
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You seem to be having trouble with the concept of an employee hired to do a specific job and carry out the policies associated with that job as part of their contractual obligations. You also seem to ignore that - regardless if you personally approve of them or not - the policies were implemented and developed in the interest of the education of the students of the community.
 
Re: Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended

haymarket said:
You seem to be having trouble with the concept of an employee hired to do a specific job and carry out the policies associated with that job as part of their contractual obligations. You also seem to ignore that - regardless if you personally approve of them or not - the policies were implemented and developed in the interest of the education of the students of the community.
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Whose interests is it a school employee to serve? That of his students, or that of bureaucrats and politicians?

Clearly, a school employee who engages in such idiocy as punishing a student for doing nothing at all wrong is not acting in the interests of that student, or any other.
 
Re: Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended

Bob Blaylock said:
Whose interests is it a school employee to serve? That of his students, or that of bureaucrats and politicians?

Clearly, a school employee who engages in such idiocy as punishing a student for doing nothing at all wrong is not acting in the interests of that student, or any other.
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repeating the same question which I answered in the previous post is not a new argument. Nor is using hyperbole like IDIOCY to describe a Board policy designed to protect students from threats.
 
Re: Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended

I must say, I've seen lots of school over-reactions and unintended consequence of "zero tolerance" policies, so I'm not a big fan. However, given the number of warnings, both written and verbal, that the children had received, ignoring those warnings should indeed have consequence.

We live in a society where 10 yr. olds flash gang signs in elementary school, where pointing a finger as a gun and pulling the imaginary trigger is a real-life death threat on the streets. Tell me, folks, do we really want our elementary school kids intimidating each other by flashing gang signs and mock executions? Really?

Decades ago, when my kids were young, I would have been so horrified and furious to learn that any of my children had thought pretending to blow a classmate's brains out was "funny" or "cute", that they would have been grounded until puberty. And now it's... what? "Boys will be boys?"

Nope, the school got it right. The mock execution of a classmate for ****s and giggles is wholly inappropriate in our schools, and these kids had plenty of warning that it would not be tolerated. Nor should it be.

I'm really surprised that a very clear case of a student breaking a well-established policy by pretending to shoot another student in the head has become a Second Amendment issue. I mean, just look at yourselves! This child got a 3-day suspension, after several written and verbal warnings were ignored. He deserved it. Trying to make him an NRA poster boy is just plain silly. The boy broke a reasonable rule, one he was very familiar with, and after several warnings, he got a time-out.

End of story.
 
Re: Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended

MrVicchio said:
In the 90's at my high school it was write common to see pick ups with guns in the gun racks.
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I have no doubt. Must have been a few folks that skipped English classes as well.
 
Re: Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended

Top Cat said:
I have no doubt. Must have been a few folks that skipped English classes as well.
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Im typing on my phone.... sorry I missed a typo. /smh
 
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