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Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended [W:148:245]

Re: Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended

haymarket said:
Got it - you are unable to document what you claimed in making an allegation against me about not supporting rights.

Even if I am as cautious as you claim, you would have thought in 42,000 posts I screwed up somewhere and revealed by secret authoritarian beliefs and my desire to abolish all rights in the land.
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I stated why I don't want to get into it here. I can't help if you believe what you just wrote here.
 
Re: Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended

Gipper said:
I also remember the days when the gun (and trigger noise), along with a wink, was a "gotcha, sport" move.
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I know...in how many business meetings and boardrooms is that one seen?
 
Re: Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended

Kal'Stang said:
I did. I also played superman with lasers coming out of my eyes. Batman and Robin..including the Joker and all utilities/weapons that they all use. And many other like minded games.
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What, no Ninja Turtles? We played softball, tether ball, tricky bars, four square, jump rope, hopscotch, tag, none of which involved bringing any toys from home.
 
Re: Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended

Fiddytree said:
We didn't play cowboys and indians or cops and robbers, but our play resembled what was popular on television for our age. Play fighting was a regular feature of our recesses.
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I think playing cops and robbers/ play fighting at recess on the play ground is fine, but a group of boys took the game into the classrooms and was escalating throughout the school. I picture a Lord of the Flies scenario starting to take over the school.
 
Re: Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended

Moot said:
What, no Ninja Turtles? We played softball, tether ball, tricky bars, four square, jump rope, hopscotch, tag, none of which involved bringing any toys from home.
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Nope, no ninja turtles. Also I didn't have to bring any toys from home either. I used my fingers, hands, feet, and my imagination. Swings work great for pretending to fly like superman and jungle gyms worked great for both pirating and as a batman cave. ;)
 
Re: Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended

Moot said:
I think playing cops and robbers/ play fighting at recess on the play ground is fine, but a group of boys took the game into the classrooms and was escalating throughout the school. I picture a Lord of the Flies scenario starting to take over the school.
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And boys who play with dolls will grow up to be gay, right? You seem to have that "cause and effect" game down pat.
 
Re: Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended

Gipper said:
And boys who play with dolls will grow up to be gay, right? You seem to have that "cause and effect" game down pat.
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Thats weird, because I don't recall ever saying any such thing.
 
Re: Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended

Kal'Stang said:
1: The only way its going to be looked at is if it is "violated" and punishment happens. Otherwise it would get ignored.

2: You have already indicated that until it is changed people should be punished for violating it. Despite you even agreeing that in the given scenario it should be looked at and "possibly" changed. That is where we difer. No kid...or anyone for that matter...should be punished for violating idiotic rules/laws.
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If we have an official policy that has been adopted and approved by a Board - that policy should be enforced on the school level with students who violate it subject to the sanctions of that policy. If we want to look at changing aspects of that policy, there are ways and procedures to do that as I have repeatedly stated without using children as little pawns on behalf of parents with an axe to grind.
 
Re: Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended

Lursa said:
There are a million ways that a kid can disrupt the learning environment and you cannot...have not....made zero tolerance policies against them all.

It is YOUR JOB as a teacher to control your class AND ascertain on an individual basis how to correct a discipline problem. Not have some blanket policy that you can just toss out there and affect a kid *unnecessarily and inappropriately* just because it's easier and covers the school's liability.

And when you cannot successfully discipline the kid, then you go to the administration and the parents....It's not your fault and it's not your job if a kid is a true problem or threat. But it *should be your job/administration's job* to assess every kid individually.....instead of just punting to some blanket policy to get out of it and cover your asses.
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But that is exactly why we have developed zero tolerance policies and have done our best to remove case by case judgments and adjudication's of the same. School districts got sick and tired of paying out money to both defend and settle actions taken against them accusing them of unequal enforcement of rules. This was particularly sensitive when persons or groups claimed that it was their ethnicity, or race , or gender or religion or some other characteristic which caused them to be punished while others were not for similar behaviors.

Your statement about a teachers discretion in handling discipline becomes less and less true with each passing year as a district strives for more and more uniformity all in the name of fairness and equality.

I tend to agree with your last statement that we need to look at kids individually and each case assessed individually. I think that is fair and proper and the way to do it.

Having said that, I have been part of committees who both participated in developing these policies as well as criticizing and reviewing them and can only relate to you the background and reasons for some of them.

There is a price to pay for everything. Perhaps we have found one of the unfortunate prices we pay for trying to remove arbitrary and capricious punishment from children on a case by case basis?
 
Re: Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended

Kal'Stang said:
I stated why I don't want to get into it here. I can't help if you believe what you just wrote here.
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I would sincerely hope that you and every person here would want me to continue to write such truth each and every time anyone here makes accusations against me but is unable to back them up with verifiable evidence. I would never try to prevent anyone here from making allegations or claims but in turn they should expect to be challenged to back it up with evidence that can be verified and checked to see if what they say is fact or just repeating the meme of a few discontinued people.

Regardless if it is one individual or twenty or more, each will be challenged in the same manner. Integrity, fairness and honesty demands that it be done.
 
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Re: Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended

haymarket;1063011595 There is a price to pay for everything. Perhaps we have found one of the unfortunate prices we pay for trying to remove [B said:
arbitrary and capricious punishment[/B] from children on a case by case basis?
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The bold is exactly what was applied in the case we are discussing *IMO*. The policy can do more harm than good.

And doing the right thing by individual kids is more important than CYA for liability. Justice IS an individual treatment, not a blanket.
 
Re: Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended

Lursa said:
The bold is exactly what was applied in the case we are discussing *IMO*. The policy can do more harm than good.

And doing the right thing by individual kids is more important than CYA for liability. Justice IS an individual treatment, not a blanket.
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While I am willing to concede a policy like this does indeed do harm, I would not go as far as to agree it does more harm than good without seeing some data.

And I have agreed with your conclusions about handling it on a case by case basis but only ask that people understand why such things were adopted in the first place. It has far more to do with a school district covering its own ass and limiting liability and court actions that it does the softening of boys or any campaign against guns.
 
Re: Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended

haymarket said:
While I am willing to concede a policy like this does indeed do harm, I would not go as far as to agree it does more harm than good without seeing some data.

And I have agreed with your conclusions about handling it on a case by case basis but only ask that people understand why such things were adopted in the first place. It has far more to do with a school district covering its own ass and limiting liability and court actions that it does the softening of boys or any campaign against guns.
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Yes...thank you.

However the system seems to have forgotten that it supposed to be educating kids, not building a protective bureaucracy.

I would not agree...but realize there isnt any data...that the policy is more productive for educating kids...I think it teaches alot of bad things...like avoiding accountability.

There needs to be a way to make the parents more accountable...it starts there IMO, by no means do I believe that it's the school's business to do half the disciplinary activity they do....they do it by forfeit...because the parents do not. The schools should have the balls and budgets to stand up to parents and set some examples.
 
Re: Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended

Lursa said:
Yes...thank you.

However the system seems to have forgotten that it supposed to be educating kids, not building a protective bureaucracy.

I would not agree...but realize there isnt any data...that the policy is more productive for educating kids...I think it teaches alot of bad things...like avoiding accountability.

There needs to be a way to make the parents more accountable...it starts there IMO, by no means do I believe that it's the school's business to do half the disciplinary activity they do....they do it by forfeit...because the parents do not. The schools should have the balls and budgets to stand up to parents and set some examples.
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That depends on if the school wants to stand up to the parents and set some examples. I have seen many school districts who are only more than willing to adopt strict policies as a general rule but who tend to cave in like a house of cards in a strong gale when an angry parent comes in especially if Mommy or Daddy is a lawyer or brings one with them or starts talking lawsuit. I think that is why so many adopted these policies in the first place so they could agree with the parents complaints but hold up their hands and claim they were tied just the same.

And with school budgets in many places cut to the bone over the last several years, I am not sure they want that legal fight which can be costly as well as time consuming not to mention taking their attention away from their real mission while tending to all that is necessary in a lawsuit and attendant publicity in the community.

As somebody who spent 33 years in public schools teaching - I can honestly tell you that there are no easy solutions to these problems because it their core - they are NOT educational problems but social and political problems. Just read over this thread and that becomes evident.
 
Re: Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended

haymarket said:
That depends on if the school wants to stand up to the parents and set some examples. I have seen many school districts who are only more than willing to adopt strict policies as a general rule but who tend to cave in like a house of cards in a strong gale when an angry parent comes in especially if Mommy or Daddy is a lawyer or brings one with them or starts talking lawsuit. I think that is why so many adopted these policies in the first place so they could agree with the parents complaints but hold up their hands and claim they were tied just the same.

And with school budgets in many places cut to the bone over the last several years, I am not sure they want that legal fight which can be costly as well as time consuming not to mention taking their attention away from their real mission while tending to all that is necessary in a lawsuit and attendant publicity in the community.

As somebody who spent 33 years in public schools teaching - I can honestly tell you that there are no easy solutions to these problems because it their core - they are NOT educational problems but social and political problems. Just read over this thread and that becomes evident.
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I completely agree. But I also think that the schools should NOT allow parents and fear of lawsuits to do this kind of damage because it DOES teach kids things....the wrong things. Social things, yes, but still the wrong things.
 
Re: Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended

haymarket said:
If we have an official policy that has been adopted and approved by a Board - that policy should be enforced on the school level with students who violate it subject to the sanctions of that policy. If we want to look at changing aspects of that policy, there are ways and procedures to do that as I have repeatedly stated without using children as little pawns on behalf of parents with an axe to grind.
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And you continue to prove my point.
 
Re: Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended

haymarket said:
I would sincerely hope that you and every person here would want me to continue to write such truth each and every time anyone here makes accusations against me but is unable to back them up with verifiable evidence. I would never try to prevent anyone here from making allegations or claims but in turn they should expect to be challenged to back it up with evidence that can be verified and checked to see if what they say is fact or just repeating the meme of a few discontinued people.

Regardless if it is one individual or twenty or more, each will be challenged in the same manner. Integrity, fairness and honesty demands that it be done.
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Then make a thread challenging people on what so many here have called you out on. I'll not muck up a thread nor make another thread calling you on it. As I said before that is called a bait thread.
 
Re: Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended

haymarket said:
What you call an imaginary gun is a threat of possible violence according to others. Can you agree on that?
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NO I cannot agree that a kid pointing his finger at another and pretending its a gun is a threat of violence.
 
Re: Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended

j-mac said:
Are you serious here? I mean how old was the kid? 6? I'm sure his arsenal of water pistols, or GO JOES isn't a huge threat...:roll:
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the kid just might have a flamethrower and a Bren gun hidden in the chest where he stores his GI Joe doll and "Hot wheels" cars
 
Re: Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended

Kal'Stang said:
Then make a thread challenging people on what so many here have called you out on. I'll not muck up a thread nor make another thread calling you on it. As I said before that is called a bait thread.
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Why are you trying to involve others in charges that you yourself have made?
 
Re: Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended

TurtleDude said:
NO I cannot agree that a kid pointing his finger at another and pretending its a gun is a threat of violence.
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Paul Simon
A man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest.

THE BOXER.
 
Re: Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended

haymarket said:
Paul Simon
A man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest.

THE BOXER.
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advice

fools don't heed it
wise men don't need it
 
Re: Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended

apdst said:
Good thing that's not my kid. I would be at the school house starting some ****.
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And you end up arrested.
 
Re: Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended

TurtleDude said:
advice

fools don't heed it
wise men don't need it
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Your quote as a reply to Paul Simon reminds me of this one which has always been one of my favorites

A fool flatters himself, a wise man flatters the fool.
Edward G. Bulwer-Lytton

As no human being has yet achieved a state of perfection, we can all benefit from good counsel and timeless wisdom Turtle. Two more of my favorites that seem to fit are


Beware of false knowledge; it is more dangerous than ignorance.
George Bernard Shaw


It's not what you look at that matters, it's what you see.
Henry David Thoreau

It is as if Thoreau was reading this very thread when he uttered those words. Some see an educational related problem. Some see a bridge too far. Some see a legal problem. Some see an assault on their values or what they hold dear.

Perhaps we should see a boy who made another very scared and uncomfortable - who needs help to put him on the right path to become a wise adult down the road and steer him away from the fools who would merely use him as a pawn in their game?
 
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