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Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended [W:148:245]

Re: Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended

(1) I spent the last three years working in the Michigan legislature and there were times I shared your frustration. However, there are honest ones and I worked with them.

I have often found that when someone thinks that another politician is "honest" it is more often than not because that politicians shares their views.

(2) In a nation of 315 million people, of course there is going to be opinion either way on most issues. My point was a serious organized effort and evidence of it.

Organization of such things costs money. Something most people that send kids to public school cannot afford. So who knows?

(3) Little rebellions may indeed have a role in some situations. I am of the opinion - having spent 33 years in the public school system - that rules are better challenged and changed by going through established procedures - both on the student level and on the parental level with both the school and the Board who made the rules in the first place. It has been my experience that in school rebellions are not looked upon favorably and rarely get the results they strive for. But that is just my experience.

You're a statist haymarket. Of course you think this.

(4) Again, a policy that you judge to be "idiotic" has been judged by others as wise and necessary. Again, there is a way for parents to challenge this without using their kids as pawns and telling them to break the rules to advance the parents agenda.

Mob rules is 9 times out of 10 not wise. Individual people are often smart. Mobs are not.

(5) what does culture of the Japanese have to do with one national standard in the USA?

You're the one that said that you would prefer a system like the Japanese has since it has given "amazing results". It's relatively singular culture is why it works there. It never would here. The US has too varied a culture comparitively.

(6) You asked for reasons and I gave you some that may be in the minds of the advocates. No more and no less than that.

Yep you did, of which I am thankful. And I commented on them. No more, no less.

In the end, some parents felt that it was threatening to their child for another child to make a motion to them that imitated a gun shooting at them. You are free to feel that is going too far, but for some obviously it was not going too far.

And they can feel that way all that they want. But their feelings should not interfere with my childs rights.

I am sorry but I do not watch Dr. Phil so I cannot comment about your statement in that area.

You may not have. But you definitely said things that were along his lines. But then that is to be expected. Alot of idiots listened to him and came up with their own versions of what he said and touted it as their own. So you probably have heard his stuff without even realizing it.
 
Re: Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended


So it is impossible for any child to take the motion of a hand being imitated as a gun fired at them as a threat? And you know this how exactly as it puts you in the mind of every kid in America on the receiving end of such a thing.
 
Re: Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended

It is absurd, but that's what zero-tolerance policies presume. The wider the zero-tolerance policy becomes, the more behaviors become presumed for ill intent.

Are we that Orwellian now? I weep for America in the future.
 
Re: Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended

I can see your point and would concede that zero tolerance can result in miscarriages of justice. But again, lets get back to why the policy was instituted in the first place and we can see why districts all over America rushed to the policy.

Many of us know why the policies were put in place, but similarly reminding people about what student body populations become disproportionately punished (we see this dramatically impact students with emotional disorders or behavioral disorders and students of color) and what traditionally-accepted behaviors have become barred is perhaps even more important considering the lack of school violence in comparison with the number of students that have been more severely punished as a result. If students can be removed from the educational setting, placed under arrest, and even becoming separated from families from such policies, they do need to receive criticism.
 
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Re: Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended

So it is impossible for any child to take the motion of a hand being imitated as a gun fired at them as a threat? And you know this how exactly as it puts you in the mind of every kid in America on the receiving end of such a thing.

You wanna criminalize angry looks now too? Maybe we can take "staring daggers" at someone and translate it to an actual knife attack. It's the only logical step, right?
 
Re: Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended

What you call an imaginary gun is a threat of possible violence according to others. Can you agree on that?

Only by those that want to erase all sense of independence and have an agenda against guns...that much I would agree on.
 
Re: Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended

You're a statist haymarket. Of course you think this.



Mob rules is 9 times out of 10 not wise. Individual people are often smart. Mobs are not.

Statist? How does you calling silly names out of the right wing playbook further any debate. Unless you are a anarchist, you to believe in the necessity of the state. So lets stop the nonsense.

Mob rule? Who is supporting mob rule?

It seems that with these two things you have now put reason and rational discussion aside in favor of the usual far right tactics.

as to the Japanese system:


You're the one that said that you would prefer a system like the Japanese has since it has given "amazing results". It's relatively singular culture is why it works there. It never would here. The US has too varied a culture comparitively.

You said that the first time. Again, I ask you to explain this as I see no reason Americans cannot have an American standard across America for an American system of public education for Americans.
 
Re: Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended

I taught Government for the most part. You can bet your life that ones Constitutional rights was a major part of that course.

I've seen your beliefs on what peoples rights are Haymarket. Suffice it to say that your version and mine are different.
 
Re: Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended

Only by those that want to erase all sense of independence and have an agenda against guns...that much I would agree on.

Perhaps there might be a particle of what you say. I am more than willing to accept that in a nation of over 300 million people, agendas like that do exist. The opposite also exists and this thread is ample evidence of it.
 
Re: Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended

Nor is drawing ones thumb from ear to ear across the throat. Is there any doubt about what that means?

Huge difference here....kids have been playing with imaginary weapons in purely play for thousands of years. Drawing ones thumb/finger across your throat from ear to ear however has been universally considered a threat for the same amount of time.
 
Re: Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended

I've seen your beliefs on what peoples rights are Haymarket. Suffice it to say that your version and mine are different.

Really? What rights that Americans have have you seen me not support?

Feel free to quote me on those exact rights and how I do not support them.

Not only did I inform students of their rights - but I also gave them in writing this directive: if I tell you to do something, please do it. If I ever tell you to do something that is illegal, immoral or a violation of your rights as laid out in the school code and student handbook, not only should you (1) NOT do it, but you should most certainly (2) get up and leave the room, (3) proceed directly and speedily to the principals office where you should (4) file a written report against me, and (5) petition the Board of Education to have me removed as a teacher for this serious offense against you.
 
Re: Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended

Huge difference here....kids have been playing with imaginary weapons in purely play for thousands of years. Drawing ones thumb/finger across your throat from ear to ear however has been universally considered a threat for the same amount of time.

A threat is a threat is a threat and the person on the other end of it is the one to decide if it is taken that way.

And I see no difference in the example I gave as the same exact reasoning that is used to mock the gun threat can be used to mock the throat slashing threat also: its done with a finger and can do nobody any hard in any way.

But I am cheered by your acceptance that use of a hand to signal a threat can indeed be serious.
 
Re: Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended

We never played cowboys and indians at school and Ill bet most people didnt, either. That was something you played in your back yard or an open field, but not at school. Nobody took their toy guns or dollies to school...thats stupid.

I did. I also played superman with lasers coming out of my eyes. Batman and Robin..including the Joker and all utilities/weapons that they all use. And many other like minded games.
 
Re: Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended

Not only did I inform students of their rights - but I also gave them in writing this directive: if I tell you to do something, please do it. If I ever tell you to do something that is illegal, immoral or a violation of your rights as laid out in the school code and student handbook, not only should you (1) NOT do it, but you should most certainly (2) get up and leave the room, (3) proceed directly and speedily to the principals office where you should (4) file a written report against me, and (5) petition the Board of Education to have me removed as a teacher for this serious offense against you.

That ensures that a student and/or parent really has to work for it, doesn't it? Some of that is to protect against unnecessary complaints, but it likewise serves to keep an imbalance (justified or not).
 
Re: Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended

Statist? How does you calling silly names out of the right wing playbook further any debate. Unless you are a anarchist, you to believe in the necessity of the state. So lets stop the nonsense.

One doesn't need to be an anarchist or a statist to believe that both have validity in certain situations. You are a statist because you unequivocally believe that the state rules/laws should always be followed no matter what and anything that includes civil disobediance should not be tolerated and are fully in favor of punishment for that civil disobediance. To put it simply and to show a bit of geekiness you would be considered "lawful good" in dungeons and dragons terms: IE someone that follows the law and believes others should follow the law no matter what. Me on the other hand would be considered "chaotic good". I fully believe in following the laws...until they interfere with what is actually right. One person follows the law and nothing else. The other follows morality. Both have their merits. Both have their drawbacks.

Mob rule? Who is supporting mob rule?

You are by stating that in a school setting if the school has a zero tolerance policy, which is voted on by a bunch of people, which includes being against a kid playing cops and robbers with imaginary finger guns, then the kid should be punished.

It seems that with these two things you have now put reason and rational discussion aside in favor of the usual far right tactics.

As I've said it before and I'll say again. Just because one side has a bunch of idiots does not mean that ALL of their ideas or beliefs are idiotic. That applies to the far right, the far left, and everything in between. So, if you consider my position/statements to be far right....:shrug: don't really care. Being what you consider a far right tactic does not automatically negate its validity.

as to the Japanese system:

You said that the first time. Again, I ask you to explain this as I see no reason Americans cannot have an American standard across America for an American system of public education for Americans.

Yep. I did. Perhaps because I don't know how to make it any plainer? If you don't see how a standardized system of rules would be viewed differently by different people because of their differences in culture then I'm not sure how I can explain it to you. Maybe by going to extreme's? Let's try.

There have been cases where a muslim father would kill thier child because they act in a non-muslim way. Would such a father accept a rule that forbid the wearing of a hijab in a school if the majority of people voted to ban Hajib's in a state wide ban due to safety reasons? Note: I'm not saying that a father would kill their child in such an instance...just setting the stage for cultural differences. Also note that the father has to send their kid to public school because financially, time wise and legally they have to send their child to one. Financially because 1: the father can't afford a private school and 2: because the father can't take time away from work to teach their child on their own. And legally if you don't prove that you are adequately homeschooling your child then you must send them to public/private school.
 
Re: Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended

Really? What rights that Americans have have you seen me not support?

Don't think I really want to get into this. You hedge and haw so much on certain rights that you always avoid saying out right what is clearly implied in the majority of your posts.

I might participate in such a thread but I'm not about to make such a thread as that would be a call out thread.
 
Re: Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended

A threat is a threat is a threat and the person on the other end of it is the one to decide if it is taken that way.

And I see no difference in the example I gave as the same exact reasoning that is used to mock the gun threat can be used to mock the throat slashing threat also: its done with a finger and can do nobody any hard in any way.

But I am cheered by your acceptance that use of a hand to signal a threat can indeed be serious.

Except it is not the person that is on the other end of that imaginary finger gun in the middle of playing cops and robbers that is deciding if it is an actual threat. A third party is.

I've also never claimed that a hand signal cannot be considered a threat. But when two (or more) kids are playing cops and robbers and both kids are using their imaginary finger guns I'm pretty sure that no threat is being issued. I'm also pretty sure that you realize that but wish to continue considering ALL of them as threats.
 
Re: Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended

That ensures that a student and/or parent really has to work for it, doesn't it? Some of that is to protect against unnecessary complaints, but it likewise serves to keep an imbalance (justified or not).

It protected both the individual student and me as the teacher and the school itself. But far far far more importantly, it protected the learning environment in the classroom for thirty other students who did not have their learning upset on a daily basis by some person who thought their ability to disrupt and disturb were more important than thirty other people. I owed at least that to every kid handed to me to educate.
 
Re: Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended

Except it is not the person that is on the other end of that imaginary finger gun in the middle of playing cops and robbers that is deciding if it is an actual threat. A third party is.

I've also never claimed that a hand signal cannot be considered a threat. But when two (or more) kids are playing cops and robbers and both kids are using their imaginary finger guns I'm pretty sure that no threat is being issued. I'm also pretty sure that you realize that but wish to continue considering ALL of them as threats.

Of course that is true. We do NOT expect children to personally judge and prosecute every supposed act against them. That would be absurd in the extreme.

I would agree about two kids playing cops and robbers in a pretend game situation. And I would think that sort of thing needs to be looked at and possible changed.
 
Re: Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended

Don't think I really want to get into this. You hedge and haw so much on certain rights that you always avoid saying out right what is clearly implied in the majority of your posts.

I might participate in such a thread but I'm not about to make such a thread as that would be a call out thread.

Got it - you are unable to document what you claimed in making an allegation against me about not supporting rights.

Even if I am as cautious as you claim, you would have thought in 42,000 posts I screwed up somewhere and revealed by secret authoritarian beliefs and my desire to abolish all rights in the land.
 
Re: Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended

So it is impossible for any child to take the motion of a hand being imitated as a gun fired at them as a threat? And you know this how exactly as it puts you in the mind of every kid in America on the receiving end of such a thing.

That wasnt the question...it was phrased the opposite...that that was the ONLY way it could be perceived.
 
Re: Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended

You wanna criminalize angry looks now too? Maybe we can take "staring daggers" at someone and translate it to an actual knife attack. It's the only logical step, right?

I know....how many of us use the stabbing motion and screeching from Psycho to indicate a crazy person....it's not remotely a threat, it's a universal identifier (in America).
 
Re: Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended

I know....how many of us use the stabbing motion and screeching from Psycho to indicate a crazy person....it's not remotely a threat, it's a universal identifier (in America).

I also remember the days when the gun (and trigger noise), along with a wink, was a "gotcha, sport" move.
 
Re: Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended

Of course that is true. We do NOT expect children to personally judge and prosecute every supposed act against them. That would be absurd in the extreme.

I would agree about two kids playing cops and robbers in a pretend game situation. And I would think that sort of thing needs to be looked at and possible changed.

1: The only way its going to be looked at is if it is "violated" and punishment happens. Otherwise it would get ignored.

2: You have already indicated that until it is changed people should be punished for violating it. Despite you even agreeing that in the given scenario it should be looked at and "possibly" changed. That is where we difer. No kid...or anyone for that matter...should be punished for violating idiotic rules/laws.
 
Re: Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended

It protected both the individual student and me as the teacher and the school itself. But far far far more importantly, it protected the learning environment in the classroom for thirty other students who did not have their learning upset on a daily basis by some person who thought their ability to disrupt and disturb were more important than thirty other people. I owed at least that to every kid handed to me to educate.

There are a million ways that a kid can disrupt the learning environment and you cannot...have not....made zero tolerance policies against them all.

It is YOUR JOB as a teacher to control your class AND ascertain on an individual basis how to correct a discipline problem. Not have some blanket policy that you can just toss out there and affect a kid *unnecessarily and inappropriately* just because it's easier and covers the school's liability.

And when you cannot successfully discipline the kid, then you go to the administration and the parents....It's not your fault and it's not your job if a kid is a true problem or threat. But it *should be your job/administration's job* to assess every kid individually.....instead of just punting to some blanket policy to get out of it and cover your asses.
 
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