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Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended [W:148:245]

Re: Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended

TurtleDude said:
some believe that you should never make your own safety a personal responsibility. People who do are less likely to cede their rights to a nanny state and vote for nanny type government. Those who want to turn the USA into a nanny state socialist dictatorship are against this sort of personal action against a threat
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Usually for one of very few reasons…

  • They are or wish to be the threat against which they don't want anyone to stand up.
  • They are on the side of those who are or wish to be that threat.
    …or…
  • They hope that by grovelling before the one who wishes to be that threat, they can convince the threat not to pick on them.
 
Re: Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended

haymarket said:
Rules that YOU consider as idiotic. The school does not consider them as idiotic but rather as essential to the safety and security of the population they have been entrusted with.

If you do not like the school rules - you can
1- lobby the school to change them
2- lobby the school board to change them
3- find a school with rules more to your liking
4- home school your own children

DO NOT UNDERMINE THE SCHOOL BY TELLING YOUR KIDS TO DISOBEY THE RULES BECAUSE OF SOME POLITICAL ISSUES YOU HAVE.

I taught in the public school system for 33 years - the vast vast majority in high school. On the first day I would give all the kids a list of my written procedures and rules. Each kid had to sign it and then take it home and have a parent sign it. If a parent or student had an issue with a rule or procedure I was happy to talk about it but in the end - they either signed and followed or I would not accept them in the class and had the support of the administration on this issue.

You cannot undermine the ability of the school to manage its own affairs - especially in the area of student safety.
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haymarket said:
The school felt otherwise and they have a right to do that. If you do not like the school rules - you can
1- lobby the school to change them
2- lobby the school board to change them
3- find a school with rules more to your liking
4- home school your own children

Your reply was civil disobedience. Do you even know the purpose of civil disobedience? The whole idea is to break the law or rule, stand trial for it, let your example serve to turn the public against the policy. It is not to have your kids break the rules and then pretend they can get away with it because Macho Man back home wants them to grow an bigger pair and has trouble with authority.
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haymarket said:
That argument is to be made when the policy is proposed. Once it has been proposed, discussed and voted on - the issue is done. You do not have the right to make a discretionary call regarding a policy adopted by the school board regarding student safety. Its done.

If you do not like the school rules - you can
1- lobby the school to change them
2- lobby the school board to change them
3- find a school with rules more to your liking
4- home school your own children

But you do not have the discretion to tell your kids to disobey school rules and expect they can get away with it.
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Repeating the same nonsense over and over and over and over and over and over and over again does not make it any less nonsensical.
 
Re: Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended

TurtleDude said:
this is a message board. and its fair game to blast mindless bots for being mindless bots.
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Especially those who, while being mindless bots, keep repeating over and over again a detailed description about how such mindless bots come to be.
 
Re: Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended

joko104 said:
Some saying they were education for 3 decades lays blame on how lawsuit prone our society it as the reason for "zero tolerance." Your kid is accused of being a bully and so is my kid. The school decides that what your kid did wasn't so bad so gives a detention. The school decided what my kid was very serious, and issues I suspension.

Next thing I'm in court suiting the school district claiming it is racial discrimination or gender discrimination or some other illegal discrimination. Even if I lose, the school district spends $50,000 in lawyer fees to win.

His explanation for "zero tolerance" is by setting absolute rules that are applied 100% of the time then no one can claim discrimination. That makes some sense and is maybe of of 10,000 problems with the USA having a sue-em system for which there is no disincentive against bringing frivolous lawsuits. So even if someone sues you and loses - you probably lost 10s of thousands of dollars to "win." That's how lawyers want it and our government is overwhelming controlled by lawyers.

Someone just sued McDonalds for $1.5 million claiming he didn't get enough napkins and declaring it was racist because a Latino manager allegedly said "you people" when he threw a fit about not enough napkins in the bag. It will cost that McDonald's franchise owner thousands of dollars to "win" that case.
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thing about it is that if you lose you have to pay the other person lawyers fees.
 
Re: Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended

joko104 said:
Most bullies are not cowards and generally are tougher than other kids. Television has presented the fiction you tell for decades, and how the smaller kid wins because he's braver. From Opy on Andy Griffith to the Karate Kid, this is a theme told a thousand times. Good always triumphs and fights are won by courage against cowardly bullies. There is not reality in those fictions. TV and movies are not reality. Who wins a fight is the better fighter. It's that simple.

Telling your kid to fight someone much larger than him - as young as 10? - and that you would be embarrassed of him if not is horrible parenting advise in my opinion.
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I base what I say, not on silly old TV shows, but on direct, personal experience.

Bullies are generally cowards. They take delight in hurting others, but are unwilling, themselves, to be hurt.

As a child, I was an unusually thin, frail, weakling—basically a bully-magnet. If a bully was looking for what seemed an easy victim, they usually zeroed in on me. I'm sure I was still in a single-digit age when I realized that if I could even get one or two good blows in, the bully would pick on someone else next time. He might kick my ass on that occasion, and I'd come out of that one fight worse than the bully; but if the bully came out having been at all hurt, he'd next time pick a different victim who he deemed less likely to fight back.
 
Re: Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended

haymarket said:
No it is not. People in a free and open society obey rules every minute of every day…
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A society in which the people blindly obey any and all rules,no matter how stupid or senseless, is the opposite of a free and open society.

Yes, some rules are certainly needed. But the rule-making body always needs to be put in its place, with a clear understanding that it is a servant to the people, and not a master over them; and rules must be made for the good of those who are so governed, and not merely as a way of exercising power and control over them.

What you insist on defending is the result of rule-makers who have foolishly been allowed to imagine themselves as masters rather than as servants.
 
Re: Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended

haymarket said:
No it is not. People in a free and open society obey rules every minute of every day and it has nothing to do with fascism.
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Thats funny because I havent heard any news report of an adult being arrested for pointing his finger at anyone. You know why? Because of such a law even existed cops wouldnt be STUPID enough to enforce it because they would be sued. Yet our schools somehow enforce this stupidity on our children.

We cannot on one hand scream and rant about the schools going to hell over the last decade or two and then on the other decide we are going to have parents teach children to disobey the school rules and be able to get away with it because Daddy back home will support them and their decision. That sort of thing only leads to the weakening of the school environment and completely undermines the ability to run the school and educate large numbers of children.
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You know why schools are going to hell? Because of stupidity like this! Making ridiculous rules simply because children have no rights and they are considered possessions and so we can make any sort of rule, no matter how idiotic, and then complain when somebody stands up to it that its a breach of authority. Thats what your logic is based on. Running a a school based on stupid rules like "zero-tolerance" and "lookalike guns" is teaching our kids the wrong lessons about what society is about and what personal responsibility is about. And any teacher or school administrator who defends those kinds of idiotic things shouldnt be working in a school.
 
Re: Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended

Moderator's Warning:
OK, people, some infractions have been levied. If you do not cease the personal attacks, more will be.
 
Re: Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended

Bob Blaylock said:
A society in which the people blindly obey any and all rules,no matter how stupid or senseless, is the opposite of a free and open society.

Yes, some rules are certainly needed. But the rule-making body always needs to be put in its place, with a clear understanding that it is a servant to the people, and not a master over them; and rules must be made for the good of those who are so governed, and not merely as a way of exercising power and control over them.

What you insist on defending is the result of rule-makers who have foolishly been allowed to imagine themselves as masters rather than as servants.
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Not at all. What I am insisting on is children obeying the rules of their school and if parents have a problem with them to pursue proper avenues to dispute those rules. We cannot run schools in an environment where children are coached by parents to disobey rules simply because of parents own socio-political agenda. that is a recipe for chaos and anarchy and nobody gets educated in that sort of environment.
 
Re: Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended

PoS said:
Thats funny because I havent heard any news report of an adult being arrested for pointing his finger at anyone. You know why? Because of such a law even existed cops wouldnt be STUPID enough to enforce it because they would be sued. Yet our schools somehow enforce this stupidity on our children.
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Children are NOT adults and the same standards of behavior cannot be applied to them.
 
NIMBY said:
Many guns righters want this boy to have a gun, as we've seen in television ads.
If/when the boy goes wrong, schools will be blamed, not the Father .
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Bull, its a total over reaction from the school.
 
Re: Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended

haymarket said:
Children are NOT adults and the same standards of behavior cannot be applied to them.
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You're right, the same standards should not be applied to children as to adults. Being as they are children it should be understood that they do not know everything and as such should be given far more leniancy than adults when it comes to behavior. No child should have more rules than an adult.
 
Re: Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended

joko104 said:
I guess I don't have much to contrast it with since I never went to school. I'm not sure you had actually earned their "respect." Rather, their view may have been that it was now established he is your superior and it could come across as whimpy if he just kept beating up the same kid.
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This might have been true for some, but not all. I've seen some bully's that would continue to pound on a kid that never fought back.
 
Re: Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended

haymarket said:
(1) It sounds like you do not like the American system of representative government as your complaining is more generic about the nature of political representation that anything else. I have no doubt that some do a good job of representing the people that elect them and some do not while others vary in the middle. So what? That is the nature of the game in the USA.
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I like the system just fine. I hate the politicians. I have yet to find an actual honest politician.

haymarket said:
(2) I simply asked you if you knew of any parental outrage against zero tolerance so we can see if this is indeed a national movement or if it just a few marginalized individuals with their own axe to grind like those here who disguise their frustration complaining about feminization of boys or gun policy or just a hankering for the good old days when you could kick somebodys ass and be done with them instead of reporting it to the proper authorities
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I know lots. You can even see some on the threads that talk about zero tolerance on DP. I'm sure you've seen them. If not, well...look again.

haymarket said:
(3) Thank you for the link. I will read your information you provided and get back with you. Promise.
EDIT - I read the article and thought there were some good points. They accept the necessity of zero tolerance for things like guns in school. I agree that some of these other lesser offenses need to be examined and periodically evaluated. I think the way to NOT do this is have little rebellions in school by kids coached by angry parents who did not get their way at the school board meeting. That is not the way to educate our kids nor run a school for the greater benefit of the entire community.
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The only way any law or rule gets fully examined is if there are little rebellions. Thats simply a fact of life.

haymarket said:
But please keep in mind what motivated these policies in the first place as I have explained several times in several posts.
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There is a difference between a policy that is meant to do good but is used idiotically. Zero Tolerance towards kids bringing guns to school is a fine thing and no one disputes that. However when that zero tolerance is then used to ban even a child pointing their fingers and acting like its a gun in the course of a game, or chewing a pop tart into the form of a gun goes beyond common sense rules. No Zero Tolerance policy was ever originally meant to be taken so far. The only ones that would take it so far are at best idiots.

haymarket said:
(4) We disagree about who should run a school. I am a big believer in a national standard and a national curriculum and national policies like the Japanese system which has yielded such amazing results from one end of the nation to the other. But that is not the subject of this thread. The reality is that zero tolerance is adopted by states and localities and not a national authority. So you are getting the system you want but not the results you favor.
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One size fits all is exactly why we are in such trouble. Its easy for the Japanese to have a national standard. For one very important reason, they do not vary culturally near as much as what is present in the US.

haymarket said:
(5) Perhaps it causes trauma in the student on the other end? Perhaps it helps to work against a spirit of peace and cooperation that the school is working hard to achieve? Perhaps parents do not want their kids to be subject to this and classify it as bullying? Perhaps they take the entire episode more seriously than you seem to do?
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Bold: Seriously? That sounds like something straight from Dr. Phil. The most idiotic "dr" on this planet. Particularly since we are talking about kids playing. Which means mutual acceptance of a particular game.

Underline: If that were true then they would also ban all sports as having sports is completely about competition and NOT cooperating with anyone but a select few people. It also causes hard feelings when players mess up or when players lose. Not to mention creates the Jock clique which often is at odd's with any other student that is not athletically inclined. Sorry but that was one of your lamest attempts at coming up with an explanation there. ;)

Red: Honestly, don't really care. It is NOT bullying unless used aggressively (and we're not talking about aggressive use here but play use). If used aggressively then I have no problem with making a kid stop, even suspending the kid for repeat offenses. But when used in play with no ill intent they can take the suspension and Dr. Phil idiocy and shove em. ;)
 
Re: Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended

Kal'Stang said:
You're right, the same standards should not be applied to children as to adults. Being as they are children it should be understood that they do not know everything and as such should be given far more leniancy than adults when it comes to behavior. No child should have more rules than an adult.
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And in many regards they certainly are. Kids in school get away with tone of things that adults would be fired for on the job or at least disciplined or suspended for.

Children have rules which apply to their particular station in life and in the environment they find themselves in. School is one such example.
 
Re: Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended

Kal'Stang said:
(1)I like the system just fine. I hate the politicians. I have yet to find an actual honest politician.



(2)I know lots. You can even see some on the threads that talk about zero tolerance on DP. I'm sure you've seen them. If not, well...look again.



(3)The only way any law or rule gets fully examined is if there are little rebellions. Thats simply a fact of life.



(4)There is a difference between a policy that is meant to do good but is used idiotically. Zero Tolerance towards kids bringing guns to school is a fine thing and no one disputes that. However when that zero tolerance is then used to ban even a child pointing their fingers and acting like its a gun in the course of a game, or chewing a pop tart into the form of a gun goes beyond common sense rules. No Zero Tolerance policy was ever originally meant to be taken so far. The only ones that would take it so far are at best idiots.



(5) One size fits all is exactly why we are in such trouble. Its easy for the Japanese to have a national standard. For one very important reason, they do not vary culturally near as much as what is present in the US.



(6)Bold: Seriously? That sounds like something straight from Dr. Phil. The most idiotic "dr" on this planet. Particularly since we are talking about kids playing. Which means mutual acceptance of a particular game.

Underline: If that were true then they would also ban all sports as having sports is completely about competition and NOT cooperating with anyone but a select few people. It also causes hard feelings when players mess up or when players lose. Not to mention creates the Jock clique which often is at odd's with any other student that is not athletically inclined. Sorry but that was one of your lamest attempts at coming up with an explanation there. ;)

Red: Honestly, don't really care. It is NOT bullying unless used aggressively (and we're not talking about aggressive use here but play use). If used aggressively then I have no problem with making a kid stop, even suspending the kid for repeat offenses. But when used in play with no ill intent they can take the suspension and Dr. Phil idiocy and shove em. ;)
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(1) I spent the last three years working in the Michigan legislature and there were times I shared your frustration. However, there are honest ones and I worked with them.

(2) In a nation of 315 million people, of course there is going to be opinion either way on most issues. My point was a serious organized effort and evidence of it.

(3) Little rebellions may indeed have a role in some situations. I am of the opinion - having spent 33 years in the public school system - that rules are better challenged and changed by going through established procedures - both on the student level and on the parental level with both the school and the Board who made the rules in the first place. It has been my experience that in school rebellions are not looked upon favorably and rarely get the results they strive for. But that is just my experience.

(4) Again, a policy that you judge to be "idiotic" has been judged by others as wise and necessary. Again, there is a way for parents to challenge this without using their kids as pawns and telling them to break the rules to advance the parents agenda.

(5) what does culture of the Japanese have to do with one national standard in the USA?

(6) You asked for reasons and I gave you some that may be in the minds of the advocates. No more and no less than that.

In the end, some parents felt that it was threatening to their child for another child to make a motion to them that imitated a gun shooting at them. You are free to feel that is going too far, but for some obviously it was not going too far.

I am sorry but I do not watch Dr. Phil so I cannot comment about your statement in that area.
 
Re: Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended

Moot said:
Do you want your kids thinking that rules and laws don't apply to them? We have places for people like that, it's called prison.
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It's also called the White House!

It is easy to see, reading this thread, that many here want there kids to just be another brick in the wall. To teach blind obedience to bureaucratic rules does more overall harm that using common sense and standing on principle.
 
Re: Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended

haymarket said:
As someone who taught in the system for 33 years and spent the last 23 as a union rep...
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I suggest this involvement makes you less than an objective observer.
 
Re: Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended

haymarket said:
Children are NOT adults and the same standards of behavior cannot be applied to them.
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Well anyone who wants to treat kids like idiots shouldnt be anywhere near them. When I tell my child to follow a rule I carefully explain to him why its important and sensible to do so.
 
Re: Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended

Texmex said:
I suggest this involvement makes you less than an objective observer.
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Why is that?

If I were a medical doctor for 33 years and gave you my professional opinion about that field would my experience also disqualify me or make my views tarnished compared to somebody who did not know what they were talking about as they have no experience?

I had played major league baseball for 20 years and then managed for 13 about that field would my experience also disqualify me compared to somebody who did not know what they were talking about as they have no experience?


If had had been a chef in a restaurant for 33 years and then gave you my professional opinion about that field would my experience also disqualify me compared to somebody who did not know what they were talking about as they have no experience?
 
Re: Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended

PoS said:
Well anyone who wants to treat kids like idiots shouldnt be anywhere near them. When I tell my child to follow a rule I carefully explain to him why its important and sensible to do so.
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Where are you getting this ridiculous hyperbole that asking children to obey rules in a school setting is treating them like idiots?
 
Re: Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended

Texmex said:
It's also called the White House!

It is easy to see, reading this thread, that many here want there kids to just be another brick in the wall. To teach blind obedience to bureaucratic rules does more overall harm that using common sense and standing on principle.
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With that attitude, its easy to see who the knee jerks are and whose kids are most likely going to end up in the prison system and a burden on society.
 
Re: Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended

Moot said:
With that attitude, its easy to see who the knee jerks are and whose kids are most likely going to end up in the prison system and a burden on society.
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You must be talking about your own children or someone else's. Mine are grown and doing fine. No inmates; no serial killers.
 
Re: Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended

Texmex said:
You must be talking about your own children or someone else's. Mine are grown and doing fine. No inmates; no serial killers....
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.....yet.
 
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