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Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended [W:148:245]

Re: Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended

No, but I could probably find quite a few that were shot for pointing their middle finger.

But that's not the issue here, nor what you've been saying.
 
Re: Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended

It's a behaviour problem. The boy, Nathan was part of a larger group of boys that were playing cops and robbers in the classrooms, in the halls, all over the school, ignoring teachers, upsetting other students, disrupting class and creating an atmosphere of unruliness and chaos. Over the course of a month, the school sent out many letters to all the parents warning them of the problem and that there would be consequences if the behaviour continued. Nathan was the first boy to get caught and he admits he was warned. So what exactly is your problem? Do the teachers have a right to control the classroom in their care? Are they there to teach or babysit? Do you want them to be responsible for your kids? Then stop undermining and attacking them or your kids won't have any teachers or schools at all. Hard labor and low wages will be the future for your kids. Do you understand now or are your knees still jerking?

I'm not the one with the knee jerk reaction. That would be all the defenders of this stupid and pointless policy.
 
Re: Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended

It's a behaviour problem. The boy, Nathan was part of a larger group of boys that were playing cops and robbers in the classrooms, in the halls, all over the school, ignoring teachers, upsetting other students, disrupting class and creating an atmosphere of unruliness and chaos. Over the course of a month, the school sent out many letters to all the parents warning them of the problem and that there would be consequences if the behaviour continued. Nathan was the first boy to get caught and he admits he was warned. So what exactly is your problem? Do the teachers have a right to control the classroom in their care? Are they there to teach or babysit? Do you want them to be responsible for your kids? Then stop undermining and attacking them or your kids won't have any teachers or schools at all. Hard labor and low wages will be the future for your kids. Do you understand now or are your knees still jerking?
OMG, boys being boys. Well hell, lets make them wear dresses to school.
 
Re: Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended

Most bullies are cowards, who only pick on victims that they do not expect to fight back.

If a bully picks on someone smaller and weaker than himself, but his victim does fight back, the bully is going to get hurt. Perhaps he won't be hurt as badly as his victim, but he will be hurt. And next time, he'll choose a different victim, and hope that that victim doesn't fight back. The one who fought back, he'll likely leave alone.

Most bullies are not cowards and generally are tougher than other kids. Television has presented the fiction you tell for decades, and how the smaller kid wins because he's braver. From Opy on Andy Griffith to the Karate Kid, this is a theme told a thousand times. Good always triumphs and fights are won by courage against cowardly bullies. There is not reality in those fictions. TV and movies are not reality. Who wins a fight is the better fighter. It's that simple.

Telling your kid to fight someone much larger than him - as young as 10? - and that you would be embarrassed of him if not is horrible parenting advise in my opinion.
 
Re: Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended

If a rule or law is wrong then I have no problem with my kids not obeying such. You don't get rid of bad laws/rules by sitting down and obeying them. Just ask Rosa Parks.

Good example. ALL civil and human rights have been earned by people who broke the rules - often at great personal risk.

Which is MORE important children learn? To be totally submissive to "authority" and the rules? To the stand their ground against what is wrong even if that means defying the rules?
 
Re: Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended

Over the top hyperbole and gross exaggeration hardly serves any point you are trying to make. If you enroll your kids in a school and you have an issue with them following the rules of that school- find another school to your liking or better yet - you become the school and home school them. Make sure you advise them to NOT obey their teacher there also and to question that teachers authority and disobey if necessary. That would be poetic justice. DO NOT undermine the ability of the school to take care of its student population by telling your kids NOT to follow rules and disobey them.

And I have no idea what any of that has to do with fascism.

Fascism is about obeying an order blindly, without thought. If my child can think for himself and he clearly sees a rule that is stupid or nonsensical he is free to disobey that rule and I will defend him. Blindly obeying authority is a dangerous precedent to teach to a child- there must be a reason and a good reason why a child should obey a rule and its not simply because someone higher up than him tells him so.
 
Re: Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended

Most bullies are not cowards and generally are tougher than other kids. Television has presented the fiction you tell for decades, and how the smaller kid wins because he's braver. From Opy on Andy Griffith to the Karate Kid, this is a theme told a thousand times. Good always triumphs and fights are won by courage against cowardly bullies. There is not reality in those fictions. TV and movies are not reality. Who wins a fight is the better fighter. It's that simple.

Telling your kid to fight someone much larger than him - as young as 10? - and that you would be embarrassed of him if not is horrible parenting advise in my opinion.
I fully disagree, most people that were considered bullies in our schools. Were in actuality pretty much sissies once they were tagged and tagged hard.
 
Re: Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended

Are we really talking about MY kid? Mine knew to NEVER back down, back away, grovel, cry or beg. Mine, like me, were told as soon as it looked like you were going be pushed, touched, punched, slapped to go for it. Knock the crap out of them. I got your back. But dont let me find out that you were the bully. My parents and then me raised no sissies.
They were also told once it was on, it was on till the end. And everything was fair. Everything. Anyway you can cause them pain do it.
Let me guess, you told yours to run and find a teacher. Who wouldnt care if your kid was laying there in a pool of blood.

That is horrific parenting advise in my opinion. Yes, I would want my child to tell a teacher and to tell me. I would want her to avoid the fight. In addition, generally if there is a fight the school will treat both as equally responsible and suspend or expel them both, Education and grades were the highest priority of her education and being expelled for fighting would severely damage her academic record. That doesn't seem to have been your priority by your messages.

Where I grew up the men forced the boys to fight and gambled on the outcome. The loser often was brutally abused and assaulted in sadistic ways. I was likely in over 1000 such fights by age 15, when I successful fled using great violence to do so. What you are posting about courage and being in the right wins a fight is total nonsense.

Your message is radical, very. That if you kid though someone might be going to shove them, you want your kid to rip out that other kids eyes permanently blinding the other kid, stomp on the other kids face and throat, beat that other kid with a metal chair and any and all other violence and injury. Simply put, those words are you telling your kid to be a terribly violent bully himself. But, then, I suspect they are just words and nothing else. Hopefully if not your kid was smarter than to listen to you.

I would never encourage my child to get in a fight my child couldn't win and certainly would not disown or be embarrassed of my child for not doing so. That is not only terrible advise, it is very stupid and in my opinion evil parental demands on a child. While I don't know you or your kid, it is likely my kid could "beat the crap" out of your kid or you - and she's female. But I would want her to avoid a fight at school in everyway possible and for her to know that she does not have to prove her courage, toughness or skill to anyone. If a fight thrust upon her I would want her to get out of it as quickly as possible and go directly to school staff over it.
 
Re: Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended

Fascism is about obeying an order blindly, without thought. If my child can think for himself and he clearly sees a rule that is stupid or nonsensical he is free to disobey that rule and I will defend him. Blindly obeying authority is a dangerous precedent to teach to a child- there must be a reason and a good reason why a child should obey a rule and its not simply because someone higher up than him tells him so.

No it is not. People in a free and open society obey rules every minute of every day and it has nothing to do with fascism.

We cannot on one hand scream and rant about the schools going to hell over the last decade or two and then on the other decide we are going to have parents teach children to disobey the school rules and be able to get away with it because Daddy back home will support them and their decision. That sort of thing only leads to the weakening of the school environment and completely undermines the ability to run the school and educate large numbers of children.

Each child and each parent is NOT the judge of the rules at a school once they are passed and implemented and adopted by that community. That is a recipe for chaos where every kid there is suddenly in the position of a little god or judge. You simply cannot run a school that way.
 
Re: Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended

That is horrific parenting advise in my opinion. Yes, I would want my child to tell a teacher and to tell me. I would want her to avoid the fight. In addition, generally if there is a fight the school will treat both as equally responsible and suspend or expel them both, Education and grades were the highest priority of her education and being expelled for fighting would severely damage her academic record. That doesn't seem to have been your priority by your messages.

Where I grew up the men forced the boys to fight and gambled on the outcome. The loser often was brutally abused and assaulted in sadistic ways. I was likely in over 1000 such fights by age 15, when I successful fled using great violence to do so. What you are posting about courage and being in the right wins a fight is total nonsense.

Your message is radical, very. That if you kid though someone might be going to shove them, you want your kid to rip out that other kids eyes permanently blinding the other kid, stomp on the other kids face and throat, beat that other kid with a metal chair and any and all other violence and injury. Simply put, those words are you telling your kid to be a terribly violent bully himself. But, then, I suspect they are just words and nothing else. Hopefully if not your kid was smarter than to listen to you.

I would never encourage my child to get in a fight my child couldn't win and certainly would not disown or be embarrassed of my child for not doing so. That is not only terrible advise, it is very stupid and in my opinion evil parental demands on a child. While I don't know you or your kid, it is likely mine kid could "beat the crap" out of your kid or you - and she's female. But I would want her to avoid a fight at school in everyway possible and for her to know that she does not have to prove her courage, toughness or skill to anyone. If a fight thrust upon her I would want her to get out of it as quickly as possible and go directly to school staff over it.

I quit reading at the 1000 fights you were in Bruce.
 
Re: Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended [W:148]

One can suspect all they want, but the bottom line is it is plain stupid to expel a student for pointing a finger.

If you had read the article you would know the student wasn't expelled for pointing a finger. He was suspended after multiple warnings about playing a game called cops and robbers in the classroom and disrupting the class.
 
Re: Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended

I quit reading at the 1000 fights you were in Bruce.

I don't care to go further down this path with you, particularly with 2 mod warnings already about too deeply personalizing this.

Back on topic directly, if what the 10 year old did was bullying or to intimidate another child, that warranted punishment. If he had been doing so before, told to stop and notices of the problem to the parent(s) and it continued, that would warrant a suspension. It wouldn't be a "gun" rules violation, but a violation of rules against bullying and harassing other students.

It absolutely is not correctly addressed by having the two boys fight-it out in the school yard, which appears what you think the school should do and is the answer to bullying.
 
Re: Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended

OMG, boys being boys. Well hell, lets make them wear dresses to school.

OMG, doesn't anybody read anymore????
 
Re: Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended

I don't care to go further down this path with you, particularly with 2 mod warnings already about too deeply personalizing this.

Back on topic directly, if what the 10 year old did was bullying or to intimidate another child, that warranted punishment. If he had been doing so before, told to stop and notices of the problem to the parent(s) and it continued, that would warrant a suspension. It wouldn't be a "gun" rules violation, but a violation of rules against bullying and harassing other students.

It absolutely is not correctly addressed by having the two boys fight-it out in the school yard, which appears what you think the school should do and is the answer to bullying.
Now, you are putting words in my mouth. As usual. I never said the "school should" do anything. But "I" was brought up to not back down when it was obvious someone was going to make contact. I passed that on. You have issue with that.
Good for you. We raise no sissies in our home.
 
Re: Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended

It's a behaviour problem. The boy, Nathan was part of a larger group of boys that were playing cops and robbers in the classrooms, in the halls, all over the school, ignoring teachers, upsetting other students, disrupting class and creating an atmosphere of unruliness and chaos. Over the course of a month, the school sent out many letters to all the parents warning them of the problem and that there would be consequences if the behaviour continued. Nathan was the first boy to get caught and he admits he was warned. So what exactly is your problem? Do the teachers have a right to control the classroom in their care? Are they there to teach or babysit? Do you want them to be responsible for your kids? Then stop undermining and attacking them or your kids won't have any teachers or schools at all. Hard labor and low wages will be the future for your kids. Do you understand now or are your knees still jerking?

I haven't seen that part about playing cops and robbers after repeatedly told to stop. The OP link I posted stated he was suspended for 3 days as a zero-tolerance on "guns" for pointing a finger like a gun at another kid's head.

Now you are claiming that isn't what happened at all, but rather was suspended for being disorderly and refusing to stop. Is the original report totally factually wrong? Is the school now changing it's story?

Those are two ENTIRELY different reasons why he was suspended. Which one is it?
 
Re: Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended

Now, you are putting words in my mouth. As usual. I never said the "school should" do anything. But "I" was brought up to not back down when it was obvious someone was going to make contact. I passed that on. You have issue with that.
Good for you. We raise no sissies in our home.

You had the last word on this. I'm leaving it alone.
 
Re: Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended

I haven't seen that part about playing cops and robbers after repeatedly told to stop. The OP link I posted stated he was suspended for 3 days as a zero-tolerance on "guns" for pointing a finger like a gun at another kid's head.

Now you are claiming that isn't what happened at all, but rather was suspended for being disorderly and refusing to stop. Is the original report totally factually wrong? Is the school now changing it's story?

Those are two ENTIRELY different reasons why he was suspended. Which one is it?
There was a link at the bottom of your ABC article that said it came from the Colombus dispatch. Press that link button and you get the full article. The ABC article you posted appears to be an RSS feed.
 
Re: Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended

Strawman? In what way exactly? I clearly stated the time to dispute a policy is when it is proposed before the school board or school itself. Once it is the official policy, then a responsible parent can pursue several avenues including lobbying for a change, removing the child from school to a different school where the policies are different, or even home schooling. I was very clear that the responsible parent DOES NOT use their child as some sort of insurgent being taught to break the rules as that only undermines the school and the population of the school.

Now how is that a strawman?

because it has nothing to do with my post. schools are suppose to use logic and thinking skills that is what school is about. no tolerance policies are the exact opposite of that. it is the opposite of having to think and use your brain.

The policy is stupid which is why states legislature are trying to pass laws to prevent this very thing from happening. If a teacher or principle can't tell the difference between a threat and general kid play then they need to quit their job.

no tolerance goes against the very reason that people go to school. to learn to think and to analyze a situation and make a logical decision.
 
Re: Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended

Now, you are putting words in my mouth. As usual. I never said the "school should" do anything. But "I" was brought up to not back down when it was obvious someone was going to make contact. I passed that on. You have issue with that.
Good for you. We raise no sissies in our home.

So if a teacher told you take your seat and be quiet, what are you going to do, beat her/him up? And you wonder why there is 'zero tolerance" policies? Stop wondering, it's people like you that are the reason.
 
Re: Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended

There was a link at the bottom of your ABC article that said it came from the Colombus dispatch. Press that link button and you get the full article. The ABC article you posted appears to be an RSS feed.

I can't find that link. This is the only thing I found a link to with that newspaper:

A Columbus principal suspended a student for three days last week after the child pointed a "lookalike firearm” at another student in class and pretended to shoot.

The boy’s age? 10. The “level 2 lookalike firearm” cited in his suspension letter? His finger.

“I was just playing around,” said Nathan Entingh, a fifth-grader at Devonshire Alternative Elementary School in a far northern section of the district. “People play around like this a lot at my school.”

Other kids have been caught playing pretend gun games on the playground at Devonshire and weren’t suspended, Nathan said.

Devonshire Principal Patricia Price has warned students about pretend gun play numerous times this year, and everyone should know the rules by now, district spokesman Jeff Warner said. Nathan put his finger to the side of the other student’s head and pretended to shoot “kind of execution style,” Warner said
 
Re: Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended

because it has nothing to do with my post. schools are suppose to use logic and thinking skills that is what school is about. no tolerance policies are the exact opposite of that. it is the opposite of having to think and use your brain.

The policy is stupid which is why states legislature are trying to pass laws to prevent this very thing from happening. If a teacher or principle can't tell the difference between a threat and general kid play then they need to quit their job.

no tolerance goes against the very reason that people go to school. to learn to think and to analyze a situation and make a logical decision.

Some saying they were education for 3 decades lays blame on how lawsuit prone our society it as the reason for "zero tolerance." Your kid is accused of being a bully and so is my kid. The school decides that what your kid did wasn't so bad so gives a detention. The school decided what my kid was very serious, and issues I suspension.

Next thing I'm in court suiting the school district claiming it is racial discrimination or gender discrimination or some other illegal discrimination. Even if I lose, the school district spends $50,000 in lawyer fees to win.

His explanation for "zero tolerance" is by setting absolute rules that are applied 100% of the time then no one can claim discrimination. That makes some sense and is maybe of of 10,000 problems with the USA having a sue-em system for which there is no disincentive against bringing frivolous lawsuits. So even if someone sues you and loses - you probably lost 10s of thousands of dollars to "win." That's how lawyers want it and our government is overwhelming controlled by lawyers.

Someone just sued McDonalds for $1.5 million claiming he didn't get enough napkins and declaring it was racist because a Latino manager allegedly said "you people" when he threw a fit about not enough napkins in the bag. It will cost that McDonald's franchise owner thousands of dollars to "win" that case.
 
Re: Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended

So if a teacher told you take your seat and be quiet, what are you going to do, beat her/him up? And you wonder why there is 'zero tolerance" policies? Stop wondering, it's people like you that are the reason.

Moving the goal posts much, this is not about what a teacher tells you to do during the normal course of the day.
 
Re: Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended

because it has nothing to do with my post. schools are suppose to use logic and thinking skills that is what school is about. no tolerance policies are the exact opposite of that. it is the opposite of having to think and use your brain.

The policy is stupid which is why states legislature are trying to pass laws to prevent this very thing from happening. If a teacher or principle can't tell the difference between a threat and general kid play then they need to quit their job.

no tolerance goes against the very reason that people go to school. to learn to think and to analyze a situation and make a logical decision.

I spent 33 years teaching kids to use their brain. I can teach them how to do that and that is what schools do. DO NOT confuse that with having the power to question every rule that is made for their safety.

Teachers and principles for the most part DO NOT make policy on things like safety. Those are decisions made on a district level by Boards of Education elected by the people of the community. When zero tolerance policies are introduced, they are debated and decided upon in public meetings and - like all those decisions are subject to review and being examined again.

A school cannot function is parents teach their kids to question whatever rule or policy they want to question and to NOT obey it. There is nothing wrong with challenging authority and that is welcome. The problem is when parents tell kids NOT TO OBEY THE RULES. That is a recipe for chaos and anarchy and you simply cannot run a school in that sort of environment.

My post dealt head on with the point of yours. It had everything to do with it.

It is your beliefs about school systems that need to be examined since they are the views of somebody believing with their heart rather than any actual knowledge or experience as to how to actually run and administer a school district and the schools within it.

As I previously stated to another poster, zero tolerance policies took hold when districts found themselves attacked and sometimes sued in court for having unequal enforcement of rules and using the very discretion that you seem to favor. Individuals claimed they were being treated unfairly. Groups claimed they were being treated unfairly. To avoid these legal headaches and constant second guessing of board and administrator and teacher decisions, hard and fast zero tolerance policies were instituted and you find them from coast to coast in school of every type and stripe. Call it the product of our litigious soceity or our reaction to the afore mentioned criticism of unfairness and unequal treatment.

Students learn ever single day in schools and districts with zero tolerance policies. To say otherwise is to defy reality of the everyday student experience. In my state of Michigan, they just announced standardized test scores rising for the fourth straight year and that is in the zero tolerance policy environment that you seem to loathe.

http://www.wilx.com/home/headlines/MEAP-Test-Scores-Low-but-Rising-247922631.html

We have a ways to go. We need to continue to improve. But kids are thinking and learning.

In short - kids are learning. Kids are getting an education. Kids are thinking.
 
Re: Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended

The school felt otherwise and they have a right to do that. If you do not like the school rules - you can
1- lobby the school to change them
2- lobby the school board to change them
3- find a school with rules more to your liking
4- home school your own children

Actually no, the school does not have the right to arbritrarily make idiotic rules. In the end it is the parents who have the final say in regards to anything that involves their children so long as its not a safety issue and does not infringe on peoples rights.

Your reply was civil disobedience. Do you even know the purpose of civil disobedience? The whole idea is to break the law or rule, stand trial for it, let your example serve to turn the public against the policy. It is not to have your kids break the rules and then pretend they can get away with it because Macho Man back home wants them to grow an bigger pair and has trouble with authority.

Yep, I know exactly what civil disobedience is about. And I have no problem with letting my children know that if they feel that a rule or law is idiotic then they are free to break that rule or law and letting them know the consequences. And I will also let them know that if I agree with them then I will stand behind them 100% with their beliefs and actions.

Thanks btw for dropping the act of this being some sort of safety issue. As it obviously is not.
 
Re: Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended

Sorry pal - but it did not work that way. Never in all my 33 classroom years did any parent triumph in a dispute about the rules the way you pretend you would. That is from real life.

Pretend? Sorry but I don't pretend. When it comes to my children I fight tooth and nail for them and their rights. That is after all why I am an actual parent and not just a sperm donor.
 
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