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The NSA's Reach Might Be Even Bigger Than We Thought

Oh, I care about facts, you've just haven't brought any. The "Citizens need to be ignorant" as a blanket statement for everything isn't going to cut it.

lol it's too bad it doesn't matter what you think cuts it or not. Write your representatives.

You don't like metadata being collected. Federal judges have ruled that your opinion isn't legally valid. That's a fact, I'm sorry.
 
lol it's too bad it doesn't matter what you think cuts it or not. Write your representatives.

You don't like metadata being collected. Federal judges have ruled that your opinion isn't legally valid. That's a fact, I'm sorry.

It's a Republic and free for now, so I can speak my mind. While I know the actions of the government overlook my desires, I am still allowed to express those.

Again, you offer no proof, no evidence, no argument other than "sit down and shut up", and you expect people to just take that as valid argument? That's insanity. The only thing you have to back up your point is the guns of government, that's it. You have no base argument, no proof, and no evidence. That's a fact, I'm sorry.
 
It's a Republic and free for now, so I can speak my mind. While I know the actions of the government overlook my desires, I am still allowed to express those.

Again, you offer no proof, no evidence, no argument other than "sit down and shut up", and you expect people to just take that as valid argument? That's insanity. The only thing you have to back up your point is the guns of government, that's it. You have no base argument, no proof, and no evidence. That's a fact, I'm sorry.

What proof or evidence? Of what? Something to counter your imagination? You said it was spying, I gave you many pieces of evidence that would show that the metadata is not yours at all. What more do you want? I can't argue against your imagination.
 
What proof or evidence? Of what? Something to counter your imagination? You said it was spying, I gave you many pieces of evidence that would show that the metadata is not yours at all. What more do you want? I can't argue against your imagination.

Of your knowledge of the system, that everything is fine and dandy as you keep saying. You've offered no evidence. You have merely stated "I was there once, and so I know everything and anything about NSA practices and secrets and I say they are doing nothing wrong". That's what you offer. Just because you want to shift the field goal to keep off what you've been saying the entire thread doesn't remove what you have been saying the entire thread. I can't argue against your imagination.
 
Of your knowledge of the system, that everything is fine and dandy as you keep saying.

How could I go about proving this to you? Let me know.

You've offered no evidence. You have merely stated "I was there once, and so I know everything and anything about NSA practices and secrets and I say they are doing nothing wrong".

Right. You don't believe me? Okay.

That's what you offer. Just because you want to shift the field goal to keep off what you've been saying the entire thread doesn't remove what you have been saying the entire thread. I can't argue against your imagination.

I'm not imagining anything. You, however, are. You're asking for proof that undefined things that you have no proof of being done aren't happening. Think about the logic of that. That's like me saying "Ikari, I know you're doing something bad. I'm not exactly sure of what it is, but I want you to prove that you're not doing it." You'd laugh at someone that said that to you, because it makes no logical sense whatsoever. What undefined thing am I supposed to offer proof of NOT HAPPENING? You're asking me to prove a negative, which is perhaps the most infamous or all logical fallacies, and you aren't even telling me what that thing it is in the first place.

On top of that, you've shown a shocking lack of knowledge about this thing you're criticizing to begin with.

Final words for you on this, buddy: write your representatives. Vote for or against them according to their stances and how they marry up to (or don't, to yours). I can't keep watching you chase your tail. Take it easy.
 
So now privacy is an essential liberty? Funny how they didn't use that word in even the constitution. Why is that data private? The way your UE uses an IMEI and IMSI to connect through a BTS to MSC, using abis/mobis links and whatnot back down to another IMEI and IMSI, across many different company's infrastructures, using various other company's software and hardware is your private data? No, the courts disagree. They agree with you that your conversation is yours (and the person you're conversing with), and that's that private. But they agree with me in that all of that that I listed previous to the conversation is not your private data. And whether it's an essential liberty or not is highly dubious.

1: Privacy is implied in the Constitution and many courts through out decades have stated so.

2: You might want to rethink about the courts agreeing with you....http://www.debatepolitics.com/break...t-orwellian-likely-unconstitutional.html]link

3: They are collecting phone numbers and who you contact. It doesn't matter how that info is routed. That particular information IS private.

I don't think you have a right to cellular metadata, I'm sorry. That's not yours.

Who said I have a right to metadata? I don't. However I DO have a right to privacy where my name, number, and contact info is concerned. The federal government has no right to that information.
 
How could I go about proving this to you? Let me know.

You made the claim, you have to provide proof that you had and still have access to ALL the NSA spying and activity. Otherwise you cannot demonstrate the absolute knowledge you've been throwing about.

Right. You don't believe me? Okay.

I don't believe you have absolute knowledge, this is true. Because you don't have absolute knowledge and you no longer work there, you cannot claim that the NSA is absolutely not doing something because...well somethings need to be secret yes?

I'm not imagining anything. You, however, are. You're asking for proof that undefined things that you have no proof of being done aren't happening. Think about the logic of that. That's like me saying "Ikari, I know you're doing something bad. I'm not exactly sure of what it is, but I want you to prove that you're not doing it." You'd laugh at someone that said that to you, because it makes no logical sense whatsoever. What undefined thing am I supposed to offer proof of NOT HAPPENING? You're asking me to prove a negative, which is perhaps the most infamous or all logical fallacies, and you aren't even telling me what that thing it is in the first place.

On top of that, you've shown a shocking lack of knowledge about this thing you're criticizing to begin with.

Your imagining complete knowledge. I want demonstration that the government behaves properly, the government is always under the constraint that its powers are limited and the People are in charge. It must prove to the People that it is bound and restricted. If it refuses, then doubt comes into play and that's where we sit. Your side refuses to show its hand, its says secrets for secrets sake and while there is some understanding that there will be specifics kept secret; that mantra is used to excuse all secrets and to not show itself subservient to The People. Government power for the sake of government has never and never will be a good thing. This is fact.

Final words for you on this, buddy: write your representatives. Vote for or against them according to their stances and how they marry up to (or don't, to yours). I can't keep watching you chase your tail. Take it easy.

I do these things, but that doesn't mean I won't express my opinion on a political debate board which revolves around people expressing their opinion. Don't be daft.
 
Four years? lol I'm safely within the window. I'm making the claim that when someone says "Dude, remember that thing we used to have to do quarterly? Tom screwed that up so badly, it was hilarious. He was all flustered and ****, you should've seen it" I can imagine that they're not doing a completely different mission.

So yes, you're going to have to deal with the fact that I know mountains more than you about this. If I'm ignorant? You're totally lost and have even less of a clue of what you're talking about. So I'm still doing much better in this conversation about what does and doesn't happen. You seem to have a horrible aversion to the truth. You simply don't want to hear it. I'm sure you're one of those people that doesn't believe anything that's disclosed that doesn't totally adhere to your view of intelligence agencies, aren't you? If it came out that the NSA used radio waves to give Fidel Castro a stroke, you'd be all "hmmm...plausible". It comes out that PRISM prevented a terrorist attack? "Nah, that's just what they want you to believe. STOP ATTACKING MY CIVIL LIBERTIES!"

If you're just going to ignore anyone with any experience or knowledge, while depending on what you can imagine it happening, of course you can never be persuaded to think rationally. I mean...QED.

Even assuming that everything you say regarding your knowledge of how the NSA works and what they do or don't collect is true...why the hell should we believe you? An anonymous poster on a forum. But besides that if you were truely a part of the NSA as more than just an IT guy you are a part of the secrecy and lies that the NSA is all about. You, as a part of that organization, are just as complicit in their lies and deceit and would deny any wrong doing of that organization no matter what. Unless of course irrefutable fact and proof was provided. Then you'd own up to...but while doing so you would still try to minimize it as much as possible. Do you deny this? (note: that is a rhetorical question because anyone with half a brain would know the answer)
 
Even assuming that everything you say regarding your knowledge of how the NSA works and what they do or don't collect is true...why the hell should we believe you? An anonymous poster on a forum. But besides that if you were truely a part of the NSA as more than just an IT guy you are a part of the secrecy and lies that the NSA is all about. You, as a part of that organization, are just as complicit in their lies and deceit and would deny any wrong doing of that organization no matter what. Unless of course irrefutable fact and proof was provided. Then you'd own up to...but while doing so you would still try to minimize it as much as possible. Do you deny this? (note: that is a rhetorical question because anyone with half a brain would know the answer)

N.S.A. = Never Say Anything
 
wtf? Wow, then yes, everyone is spying on you. There's nothing special about the NSA doing it. You have a fundamentally different definition of spying than...anyone I've ever met. Are you mad about your phone company spying on you? The cashier at the store seeing your credit card info and sharing it with the phone company and infrastructure owners (not usually the same thing) while giving it your credit card people information about your exact whereabouts at that given time when you made the purchase.

That's some tinfoil hat stuff, that's crazy as hell.

:lol:
 
It's a Republic and free for now, so I can speak my mind. While I know the actions of the government overlook my desires, I am still allowed to express those.

Again, you offer no proof, no evidence, no argument other than "sit down and shut up", and you expect people to just take that as valid argument? That's insanity. The only thing you have to back up your point is the guns of government, that's it. You have no base argument, no proof, and no evidence. That's a fact, I'm sorry.

It's ok bud, federal judge ruled yesterday that your opinion is legally valid!
 
The NSA's attitude toward the press is, well, disturbing. There were repeated complaints about the ways in which recent reportage of the NSA was warped or lacking context. To be fair, this kind of griping is a staple of officials across the entire federal government. Some of the NSA folks went further, however. One official accused some media outlets of "intentionally misleading the American people," which is a pretty serious accusation. This official also hoped that the Obama administration would crack down on these reporters, saying, "I have some reforms for the First Amendment." I honestly do not know whether that last statement was a joke or not. Either way, it's not funny. - See more at: Tone-Deaf at the Listening Post
 
The news that the National Security Agency was monitoring the telephones of the German Chancellor, Angela Merkel, and many other foreign leaders is less shocking than the revelation that, for the first four and a half years of his Presidency, Barack Obama, the Commander-in-Chief, didn’t know anything about it. Can this be true?

Evidently, it is. According to a story in the Wall Street Journal on Monday, the spying program targeted as many as thirty-five world leaders, but it didn’t come to Obama’s attention until this summer when, in the wake of Edward Snowden’s revelations, the Administration carried out an internal review of the N.S.A.’s activities. “These decisions are made at N.S.A.,” someone described as “a senior U.S. official” told the Journal. “The President doesn’t sign off on this stuff.”

The N.S.A. and Obama: Who Watches the Watchers? : The New Yorker
 
The NSA's attitude toward the press is, well, disturbing. There were repeated complaints about the ways in which recent reportage of the NSA was warped or lacking context. To be fair, this kind of griping is a staple of officials across the entire federal government. Some of the NSA folks went further, however. One official accused some media outlets of "intentionally misleading the American people," which is a pretty serious accusation. This official also hoped that the Obama administration would crack down on these reporters, saying, "I have some reforms for the First Amendment." I honestly do not know whether that last statement was a joke or not. Either way, it's not funny. - See more at: Tone-Deaf at the Listening Post

Statists and authoritarians wanting to give more power to the government against our rights in order to hide their own questionable activities? No, never would happen. (that's sarcasm).

Anyone who wants to be honest knows that there is huge potential for some Republic destroying crap here if the NSA isn't properly watched and constrained. No about of secrets or safety are worth our freedom.
 
Statists and authoritarians wanting to give more power to the government against our rights in order to hide their own questionable activities? No, never would happen. (that's sarcasm).

Anyone who wants to be honest knows that there is huge potential for some Republic destroying crap here if the NSA isn't properly watched and constrained. No about of secrets or safety are worth our freedom.

You won't get an argument from me on that. The NSA has the largest budget of all the intelligence agencies and gets the least scrutiny. Who thinks its ok for any government agency to operate free of scrutiny, oversight and regulation. I mean even if your a NSA team mate, men are not angels, everybody knows that.
 
The NSA's attitude toward the press is, well, disturbing. There were repeated complaints about the ways in which recent reportage of the NSA was warped or lacking context. To be fair, this kind of griping is a staple of officials across the entire federal government. Some of the NSA folks went further, however. One official accused some media outlets of "intentionally misleading the American people," which is a pretty serious accusation. This official also hoped that the Obama administration would crack down on these reporters, saying, "I have some reforms for the First Amendment." I honestly do not know whether that last statement was a joke or not. Either way, it's not funny. - See more at: Tone-Deaf at the Listening Post

They have no desire to even discuss the issue and pass it off (or portray) it as poppycock.... Of course the media wants nothing to do with it because it makes Obama or the government look bad..
 
They have no desire to even discuss the issue and pass it off (or portray) it as poppycock.... Of course the media wants nothing to do with it because it makes Obama or the government look bad..

Yes, we'll I think this is far too dangerous to be playing politics with, and, it's got people all across the board very concerned. So thankfully we have a growing alternative media.
 
obama_big_brother_1984-thumb-700xauto-3291.jpg
 
This has been happening for decades now. The software to do it was invented during the Soviet era, we're just turning it on our own people now.

And it's not just the United States doing it. Most of its allies have liberalized domestic spying laws in place now, with memoranda on expanding future uses. Everyone is joining the bandwagon. The reason has nothing to do with terrorism but the state of the world wide web. The government absolutely 100% hates the information age. Knowledge networks threaten government and corporate control, especially now the media is in their pocket. The internet is pretty much our last vestige of freedom of information against statism. Julian Assange and Edward Snowden outlined this very clearly.

There is a war on information right now and the private spying / espionage industry is getting handed tens of billions of dollars by government to create databases or enhance existing ones. And the scary thing is that aside from the leaks we've graciously received, we don't really know the full extent of what they are up to. Our democracy as we know it is in grave jeopardy and none of our representatives are stepping up to really do anything about it, because most are ignorant of how technology works or none of them want to become targets. The technological elite are separate from the government now. The government hires them and we don't really know what they are gathering, or the kinds of backdoors they are creating in our legal systems.

People need to wake up. This is not about Obama. This is about private conglomerations seizing control of our information systems that keep the public informed, while simultaneously using other systems to monitor dissent. Oppression is growing and most people are too busy living in materialist la la land to care.

Once the economy crashes and people are pissed off because the provisions of livelihood are gone or under tight control, all of the systems of oppression that are currently in the works will be unleashed in the open. Maybe once people have to fight for their freedoms again they will come to appreciate them once more.
 
This has been happening for decades now. The software to do it was invented during the Soviet era, we're just turning it on our own people now.

And it's not just the United States doing it. Most of its allies have liberalized domestic spying laws in place now, with memoranda on expanding future uses. Everyone is joining the bandwagon. The reason has nothing to do with terrorism but the state of the world wide web. The government absolutely 100% hates the information age. Knowledge networks threaten government and corporate control, especially now the media is in their pocket. The internet is pretty much our last vestige of freedom of information against statism. Julian Assange and Edward Snowden outlined this very clearly.

There is a war on information right now and the private spying / espionage industry is getting handed tens of billions of dollars by government to create databases or enhance existing ones. And the scary thing is that aside from the leaks we've graciously received, we don't really know the full extent of what they are up to. Our democracy as we know it is in grave jeopardy and none of our representatives are stepping up to really do anything about it, because most are ignorant of how technology works or none of them want to become targets. The technological elite are separate from the government now. The government hires them and we don't really know what they are gathering, or the kinds of backdoors they are creating in our legal systems.

People need to wake up. This is not about Obama. This is about private conglomerations seizing control of our information systems that keep the public informed, while simultaneously using other systems to monitor dissent. Oppression is growing and most people are too busy living in materialist la la land to care.

Once the economy crashes and people are pissed off because the provisions of livelihood are gone or under tight control, all of the systems of oppression that are currently in the works will be unleashed in the open. Maybe once people have to fight for their freedoms again they will come to appreciate them once more.

Just amazes me how many people don't get that.
 
Holy crap, this thread is still going? And hasn't been moved to the CT nutter sub forum yet? Amazing.
 
Holy crap, this thread is still going? And hasn't been moved to the CT nutter sub forum yet? Amazing.

Why do you think this thread needs to be moved to the conspiracy section?
 
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