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Child taken from womb by social services

OK show me where I said, "You said forced c-sections happen all the time, everywhere. " If you cant show me that you are too dishonest for me to continue talking with. I will wait.
:shrug: You said forced c-sections happen all the time, everywhere. If they did, you could provide evidence that they do. They don't, and you can't. All of the rest of this is just smokescreen. No one made you pull something out of your ass. You did that all on your own.
 
I think I said it has probably happened many times over the years. And I am sure it has.

And now you're back to agreeing that forced c-sections happen all the time. And you still have not provided the slightest bit of evidence that makes you "sure." You just pulled it out of your ass, because apparently you want to believe it, for whatever reason. It's just a preposterous assumption on your part, and you know what happens when you assume -- but there's no "ME" in that, just "U."
 
You dont know what you are taking about, you are dishonest about it and you try to cover your lack of understanding by trying to twist words. Say something intelligent or honest and I will respond to you. Otherwise carry on with your mindless rage.
Right here you did:

http://www.debatepolitics.com/break...en-womb-social-services-4.html#post1062614483

And until Andalablue butted in and gave you a new possible out, you weren't denying it, even when I said in no uncertain terms what you were doing. You're just looking for another avenue of escape now.
 
OK show me where I said, "You said forced c-sections happen all the time, everywhere. " If you cant show me that you are too dishonest for me to continue talking with. I will wait.

You didn't say that. I just reread every post you've made in this thread and you didn't say that c-sections happen all the time. I think our libertarian friend is being economical with the truth.
 
OK show me where I said, "You said forced c-sections happen all the time, everywhere. " If you cant show me that you are too dishonest for me to continue talking with. I will wait.

if she was doing nothing else, they probably would not have. This same scenario has probably played out many times over the years in this country and everywhere else. Almost no meds are safe for pregnant women. This outrage piece is just meant to scare the conservative base. Even if there really was some sort of outrage, there is still no evidence
Well at least you made me think of it for a moment, but no, I can't see how I can agree with harming her for making such a threat while doing nothing else.

Also:

I think I said it has probably happened many times over the years. And I am sure it has.
:shrug: You said forced c-sections happen all the time, everywhere. If they did, you could provide evidence that they do. They don't, and you can't. All of the rest of this is just smokescreen. No one made you pull something out of your ass. You did that all on your own.
 
He is trying to cover his lack of...intelligence, honesty, understanding of the simplest of healthcare concepts? I dunno, but I hang out on forums to learn stuff and have fun, in this case he is just being mindlessly argumentative. I am done with him, at least for tonight. Thanks Andalublue.
You didn't say that. I just reread every post you've made in this thread and you didn't say that c-sections happen all the time. I think our libertarian friend is being economical with the truth.
 
You didn't say that. I just reread every post you've made in this thread and you didn't say that c-sections happen all the time. I think our libertarian friend is being economical with the truth.

Weird; if that were true, my above post #80 would not have been possible.
 
He is trying to cover his lack of...intelligence, honesty, understanding of the simplest of healthcare concepts? I dunno, but I hang out on forums to learn stuff and have fun, in this case he is just being mindlessly argumentative. I am done with him, at least for tonight. Thanks Andalublue.

You're just trying to backpedal on what you said. :roll:
 
Weird; if that were true, my above post #80 would not have been possible.

Your Post 80 quotes of him were not referring to c-sections, but to sectioning and psychiatric issues during pregnancy. End of discussion.
 
Your Post 80 quotes of him were not referring to c-sections, but to sectioning and psychiatric issues during pregnancy. End of discussion.

:roll:

I think I said it has probably happened many times over the years. And I am sure it has.
:shrug: You said forced c-sections happen all the time, everywhere. If they did, you could provide evidence that they do. They don't, and you can't. All of the rest of this is just smokescreen. No one made you pull something out of your ass. You did that all on your own.

Lick your wounds and bolt if you must.
 
You are dishonest. You are not making a mistake here. You are smart enough to understand the difference in those two statements.
:roll:



Lick your wounds and bolt if you must.
 
You are dishonest. You are not making a mistake here. You are smart enough to understand the difference in those two statements.

No, it's what you said. Hell, maybe you don't even know what you say from post to post. Either way, now you're hiding behind Andy.
 
Show me where I said the words in big letters. Quote Originally Posted by mak2 View Post
OK show me where I said, "You said forced c-sections happen all the time, everywhere. " If you cant show me that you are too dishonest for me to continue talking with. I will wait.
Quote Originally Posted by mak2 View Post
if she was doing nothing else, they probably would not have. This same scenario has probably played out many times over the years in this country and everywhere else. Almost no meds are safe for pregnant women. This outrage piece is just meant to scare the conservative base. Even if there really was some sort of outrage, there is still no evidence
Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
Well at least you made me think of it for a moment, but no, I can't see how I can agree with harming her for making such a threat while doing nothing else.
Also:

Quote Originally Posted by mak2 View Post
I think I said it has probably happened many times over the years. And I am sure it has.
Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
You said forced c-sections happen all the time, everywhere. If they did, you could provide evidence that they do. They don't, and you can't. All of the rest of this is just smokescreen. No one made you pull something out of your ass. You did that all on your own.
 
Show me where I said the words in big letters. Quote Originally Posted by mak2 View Post
OK show me where I said, "You said forced c-sections happen all the time, everywhere. " If you cant show me that you are too dishonest for me to continue talking with. I will wait.
Quote Originally Posted by mak2 View Post
if she was doing nothing else, they probably would not have. This same scenario has probably played out many times over the years in this country and everywhere else. Almost no meds are safe for pregnant women. This outrage piece is just meant to scare the conservative base. Even if there really was some sort of outrage, there is still no evidence
Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
Well at least you made me think of it for a moment, but no, I can't see how I can agree with harming her for making such a threat while doing nothing else.
Also:

Quote Originally Posted by mak2 View Post
I think I said it has probably happened many times over the years. And I am sure it has.
Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
You said forced c-sections happen all the time, everywhere. If they did, you could provide evidence that they do. They don't, and you can't. All of the rest of this is just smokescreen. No one made you pull something out of your ass. You did that all on your own.

My, you've worked yourself into an irrational lather, haven't you?

http://www.debatepolitics.com/break...en-womb-social-services-8.html#post1062614927

You said it. You admitted you said it. You tried to defend it (poorly). Then Andalablue came along and said "no, you didn't say that," and then you were all "duh-huh, I didn't say it."

Very poor display.
 
Last edited:
"Trust the secret courts, no matter how outrageous things may appear."

Several of the things you mentioned are not the case, as shown in the story linked in the OP and another linked from there.

'Operate on this mother so that we can take her baby’ - Telegraph

Which you could have seen for yourself had you taken your own advice and looked.

So it gets even worse the child has citizenship of three countries and the offer of fostering of relatives in the US has been rejected.
 
No. That would just be fear mongering. If it happened one time in one country the only reason to bring it in to the argument is to try to scare the stupid people that Obama is going to rip away your baby from you if anything is wrong with you. Something that I'm surprised conservatives haven't already argued.

I do not doubt that Obama would oppose "social services" have that sort of power here. Given that the father is a citizen of the United States I want to know what the administration's position on this.
 
Oh I dunno, if she was threatening to stick a knife in her belly would be enough to cause a tiny bit of concern for the child I would imagine?

Tim-

She was panicking that she did not have the passport of her two daughters that were still in Italy.
 
The forced cesarean is indeed unprecedented, but the fact that the state does often have the authority to remove a child from its parents and place it either in foster care or up for adoption is most certainly not new and happens in practically every Western country. I don't know why people are so surprised by this. The events in the OP happened 15 months ago and this woman still has not been able to get her daughter back. There's more than likely a very good reason for this. I'm not going to speculate on what that reason is and chances are we'll never find out.

Part of the issue is that the mother is NOT a British subject and is an Italian citizen and her rights and the childs rights of being an Itialian citizen by birth are violated. This is not an issue that the British government should on its own be deciding. There would be no issue if the mother was a British subject and was just an internal issue.
 
Child taken from womb by social services - Telegraph



So the woman is in the UK for some kind of job training. Apparently she's being treated for some kind of bipolar disorder. She gets off her meds and calls the cops who take her to the nut house where a decision is made to take her baby.

She's not a citizen of the UK.


OK...so this isn't one of those things we discuss when talking about nationalized health care but should it be? Is this really the kind of decision we want the government to be making for us? I mean, near as I can tell there was no representation for this woman until after the fact.



This has very little to do with Britain's healthcare system, but everything to do with their Social Services....Ours is as bad or worse than theirs....Ours
may not force the hospital to take the baby out, but they will sure be there to take it from the hospital..

Did you know that you have no civil rights when dealing with your County Department of Human or Social Services? Did you know that your local DHS office has more power than your local police department?

Did you know that they can come to your home, without a warrant or court order, and seize your children on the complaint of a teacher, neighbor, or relative? Did you know that they can snatch your children if you leave them unattended for a few moments, even if it isn't against the law?
 
No one should doubt the seemingly unfettered powers of "social services" agents and agencies not just in Britain but all over the world. This is not a unique situation and has happened here in Canada where a woman has been considered unstable and/or mentally deranged due to drug use or other circumstances and is a danger to herself and her child.

Also, no one should doubt that the health and safety of this child is in jeopardy as long as her fate is in the hands of social services. Stories are legion of innocent children being left to abuse, neglect and sometimes death by "overworked" social services agents, often just paper pushers who just want the "problem" off their hands and books.



You have hit the nail on the head... State Social Service agencies in the U.S. have way too much power... Once DHS takes possession of your child, they place them into protective custody and into foster care and you can't do a thing about it.... Unlike criminal cases, where you have certain rights and protections through rule of law, in DHS civil cases you have no such rights or protections. No absolute proof of anything is required, just the say so of anybody with an agenda, who will sign an affidavit to what they "say" that they saw or heard and voila--your kids are gone...
 
The concepts are intertwined, though. They spring from the same basic reasoning.




You don't have to be on welfare to have your children kidnapped by your State Dept of Social Services....
 
This has very little to do with Britain's healthcare system, but everything to do with their Social Services....Ours is as bad or worse than theirs....Ours
may not force the hospital to take the baby out, but they will sure be there to take it from the hospital..

Did you know that you have no civil rights when dealing with your County Department of Human or Social Services? Did you know that your local DHS office has more power than your local police department?

Did you know that they can come to your home, without a warrant or court order, and seize your children on the complaint of a teacher, neighbor, or relative? Did you know that they can snatch your children if you leave them unattended for a few moments, even if it isn't against the law?

So what you're telling me is that adult mental health services in the UK are overseen by social services?

Look, performing a caesarian without informed consent is only one part of the issue here. This woman was just visiting the UK. She was there for her job...living in a hotel. There is no indication that her family or physician were consulted regarding her treatment. She doesn't seem to have been appointed a third party advocate. Then, after all that, they take her baby and won't give it back to her or to her extended family. So far I haven't seen anything that would indicate that she was a danger to the child and even if she was why won't they release the child to a family member?

Based on what I have read of this I can't reasonably assume that these decisions are anything less than a gross violation of the public trust and what's worse is that since that violation is by the government there really isn't any recourse for the injured party. That, in a nutshell, is my biggest concern about nationalized health care.
 
So it gets even worse the child has citizenship of three countries and the offer of fostering of relatives in the US has been rejected.

Yep, that's in the story. Apparently the court denied the father's sister custody because she's not a "blood relative."
 
You have hit the nail on the head... State Social Service agencies in the U.S. have way too much power... Once DHS takes possession of your child, they place them into protective custody and into foster care and you can't do a thing about it.... Unlike criminal cases, where you have certain rights and protections through rule of law, in DHS civil cases you have no such rights or protections. No absolute proof of anything is required, just the say so of anybody with an agenda, who will sign an affidavit to what they "say" that they saw or heard and voila--your kids are gone...

Oh please.. Seriously you watch too many movies.

Tim-
 
Oh please.. Seriously you watch too many movies.

Tim-

Well, there have been numerous and well-publicised cases where social services over-reach, negligence and malpractice have led to some terrible outcomes. The case from the OP may or may not be such a case, we simply don't have the evidence to make a judgement, yet.

I do agree that a lot of people here are making wild assumptions based on scant accurate information and some seriously dodgy reporting, fed no doubt by a liberal (or conservative) dose of paranoia.
 
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