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Reported Paul Walker of Fast and Furios fame dead at 40.

joko104 said:
True, and they assure the cars are "throw away" cars. Porsche 928s were truly fabulous and costly cars. They still are very respectable in terms of performance. BUT they were early crude computer cars and their electrical/electronics systems as they age make it so they are constant problems. I had 2 that I bought used for cheap. WONDERFULLY excellent handling for a GT 2+2 and plenty quick with the manual tranny. But something was ALWAYS wrong with them electronically or electrically. A REAL pain in the ass. More than once I was in the garage of a 928 expert tracking down some electrical/electronic issue. Finally I said "to hell with this! I want a car to drive, not to fix." They became known as "trailer babies." (taking them to be fixed) - though their drive train was good for 300,000 miles.

For cars made today, when their computers die the car will die with it, the way for older cars when you blew the motor or tranny it wasn't worth fixing.
A flooded car now is always totaled and given a salvage title for the reason you gave. Because the computers now also are safety related, they are never considered safe again.

BUT the computers give levels of performance and safety that could not exist without them. So the love-hate thing.
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But don't you always have in the back of your mind that it will fail when you are going fast?
 
CRUE CAB said:
I live in Florida, and never put an ECM in a car of mine. Within a mile of the beach.
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I live in the same type of climate, but when you buy a new car what are you going to do?
 
Mason66 said:
But don't you always have in the back of your mind that it will fail when you are going fast?
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I recognize that with or without computers the car is beyond my capabilities, nor does the car give me any feedback (including being quiet so no auditory feedback). It's more a hyper speed cruiser rather than a road course car, and the fact is anytime you start pushing the envelope on corners you risk denting up your car - and dent remove on it would be astronomically expensive.

The computers DO worry me in terms of maintenance, as they also are designed to "protect the car," as car computers do. So if the computers sense something wrong, they'll either stop the car or put it into the "limp mode," ie only allowing 2nd gear and reverse. It's not like you can "limp" it into PepBoys for a quick fix. A total of 194 of these were made, with the total motor/engine management in ANY Mercedes maybe totally just over 1000 for ALL of the 3 years. In addition, this one's primary engine management is after-market, making it even rarer. I replaced 3 of the window rubber moldings. They had to be tracked down and cost right at $1000. I know the engine management computer is nearly $5K from the aftermarket company.

So I don't worry of it in terms of performance as I'll never push it that hard anyway - because I'm afraid of it overall. The cost and reliability factor does concern me - quite a bit actually. Even in mass produced cars, a non-warranty repair bill for replacing the engine management computer typically is over $2000, and over $3K for new cars.

When a tow truck driver tried to jump my wife's R350 with a dead battery (not know what he was doing) he fried the main engine computer. Over $3K to fix, and over a week waiting for it to be shipped from Germany.

The "old cars" are VERY simplistic and cheap to fix. If from the 60s/early 70s, you can buy a whole long block for around $1000 (rebuilt or salvage) and trannies are generally under $500. You can bolt on an out-of-the-box carb for under $500. Do it yourself. Price out a redo on a computer run fuel injection system. Like I've said, the old classics are absolutely cheaper to maintain, to modify and can be more fun to drive, but they aren't as safe, get far worse fuel economy, and do not perform as well.

Race-track cars are an entirely different set of questions and issues. I'm posting about street legal and comfortable cars. If you want to go really, really, really fast, buy a vintage F1 or drag race car (they're cheap used) and make it street legal. You give up EVERYTHING else, but it will be F A S T.
 
Mason66 said:
I live in the same type of climate, but when you buy a new car what are you going to do?
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He is overstating his case. The computers are actually sealed. It's not like there is a PC tower or laptop somewhere under the hood. BOATS now have computer run motors too.
 
joko104 said:
I recognize that with or without computers the car is beyond my capabilities, nor does the car give me any feedback (including being quiet so no auditory feedback). It's more a hyper speed cruiser rather than a road course car, and the fact is anytime you start pushing the envelope on corners you risk denting up your car - and dent remove on it would be astronomically expensive.

The computers DO worry me in terms of maintenance, as they also are designed to "protect the car," as car computers do. So if the computers sense something wrong, they'll either stop the car or put it into the "limp mode," ie only allowing 2nd gear and reverse. It's not like you can "limp" it into PepBoys for a quick fix. A total of 194 of these were made, with the total motor/engine management in ANY Mercedes maybe totally just over 1000 for ALL of the 3 years. In addition, this one's primary engine management is after-market, making it even rarer. I replaced 3 of the window rubber moldings. They had to be tracked down and cost right at $1000. I know the engine management computer is nearly $5K from the aftermarket company.

So I don't worry of it in terms of performance as I'll never push it that hard anyway - because I'm afraid of it overall. The cost and reliability factor does concern me - quite a bit actually. Even in mass produced cars, a non-warranty repair bill for replacing the engine management computer typically is over $2000, and over $3K for new cars.

When a tow truck driver tried to jump my wife's R350 with a dead battery (not know what he was doing) he fried the main engine computer. Over $3K to fix, and over a week waiting for it to be shipped from Germany.

The "old cars" are VERY simplistic and cheap to fix. If from the 60s/early 70s, you can buy a whole long block for around $1000 (rebuilt or salvage) and trannies are generally under $500. You can bolt on an out-of-the-box carb for under $500. Do it yourself. Price out a redo on a computer run fuel injection system. Like I've said, the old classics are absolutely cheaper to maintain, to modify and can be more fun to drive, but they aren't as safe, get far worse fuel economy, and do not perform as well.

Race-track cars are an entirely different set of questions and issues. I'm posting about street legal and comfortable cars. If you want to go really, really, really fast, buy a vintage F1 or drag race car (they're cheap used) and make it street legal. You give up EVERYTHING else, but it will be F A S T.
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Or you buy an ariol atom. Stupid fast.
 
Computers in cars allow for vastly improved emissions, fuel economy, and safety. Fact is, there are only so many things you can do mechanically...having a chip with just 100 preset actions combined with almost ANY true fuel injection (sit down, cross fire) is far superior to what a carb can do. But I can tune my carb with a deft hand, a good ear, and a screw driver. Is lose/gain. Me? I can only afford stuff I can fix myself. Hence my hesitation to step up to a newer vette. I want one...but...I'm nervous about getting something I can't easily fix myself. I've thought about doing a 383 Porsche 944...and I might do one someday. But till then, my old girl will have to be fast enough, and honestly, it is.

But it has no antilock breaks, no airbags, no crumple zones,etc. I put in a 4 point roll bar, and 5 point harness, both required for street prepared class, with a convert able/t top car...

It gets about 15mpg, but only makes about 400hp, maybe a tad less depending on the dyno. I shutter to think of it's emissions.

But, it does exactly what I tell it to, everytime. No traction control, that's what left foot braking is for. No engine management, no computers, nothing. Personally, I think everyone should drive a car like that at some point in their lives.
 
KevinKohler said:
Computers in cars allow for vastly improved emissions, fuel economy, and safety. Fact is, there are only so many things you can do mechanically...having a chip with just 100 preset actions combined with almost ANY true fuel injection (sit down, cross fire) is far superior to what a carb can do. But I can tune my carb with a deft hand, a good ear, and a screw driver. Is lose/gain. Me? I can only afford stuff I can fix myself. Hence my hesitation to step up to a newer vette. I want one...but...I'm nervous about getting something I can't easily fix myself. I've thought about doing a 383 Porsche 944...and I might do one someday. But till then, my old girl will have to be fast enough, and honestly, it is.

But it has no antilock breaks, no airbags, no crumple zones,etc. I put in a 4 point roll bar, and 5 point harness, both required for street prepared class, with a convert able/t top car...

It gets about 15mpg, but only makes about 400hp, maybe a tad less depending on the dyno. I shutter to think of it's emissions.

But, it does exactly what I tell it to, everytime. No traction control, that's what left foot braking is for. No engine management, no computers, nothing. Personally, I think everyone should drive a car like that at some point in their lives.
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Why would you give up what you got? Srly. The grass often isn't greener on the other side. No matter what you do, someone will always have a faster car. If you enjoy what you got, keep it. Just keep improving it as time and budget allows. Make it cosmetically what you want. Same on interior look. A bit of suspension refining here, a tad on the brakes there. It really doesn't matter what other's think. Other people will always have a more impressive car too. And this year's outdated car is next decade's classic.

What a lot of people don't grasp is that for the most part who are REALLY racing always is only yourself. And if budget is a limit? Old school is the only way to go. What I have now could leave virtually anything in the rearview mirror - which of course is totally worthless. I had vastly more FUN in those old manual transmissions 928s. One was older, meaning the lightest weight, the least horsepower, and lower top speed - ONLY 145 with a lower gear ratio, and it had a factory handling package. Pretty too in dark green and black interior. The other was faded out silver and a trashed burgundy interior, but some NASA guys has put it together with a turbo, 4 massive coils and other engine tricks. 1st gear was worthless it wound it out so fast.

But it was the green one I enjoyed. Handled like a slot car. Coming into a backroad curve marked "35 mph", motor braking throwing into a low gear, power out of the curve at 65. And the next day I'd go for 66. A couple months later its 70 - but I'm getting awfully close to the far side of the pavement. Now THAT'S fun. I had to WORK the car. I sold it for $4500, what I had paid for it. A terrible mistake. Thought I'd like a newer Jag XKR, definitely a FASTER car - so spend $24K for a clean, awesome looking supercharged Jaguar XKR 4.5. I got rid of it after 6 months.

Keep what you got. You know it. Just refine it as time and $$ allows. If you sell you'll probably take a beating - and come to regret it.
 
Does anyone know if the driver had a Sonic milkshake before getting behind the wheel?
 
Hatuey said:
Does anyone know if the driver had a Sonic milkshake before getting behind the wheel?
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No, but the driver had received an automated phone call of a recording of President Obama urging him to think about the Affordable Care Act minutes before heading out, when really he should have been thinking about driving.
 
joko104 said:
No, but the driver had received an automated phone call of a recording of President Obama urging him to think about the Affordable Care Act minutes before heading out, when really he should have been thinking about driving.
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How do you know? On top of being a super secret police officer guy who parachutes on weekends to give loitering tickets, are you also working for the NSA?
 
Hatuey said:
How do you know? On top of being a super secret police officer guy who parachutes on weekends to give loitering tickets, are you also working for the NSA?
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We can't even think of a new super car with both of us being in Mexico.

That would be a sure death sentence.
 
Mason66 said:
We can't even think of a new super car with both of us being in Mexico.

That would be a sure death sentence.
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I don't necessarily agree. If I were to buy a car here, it would most definitely be Volkswagen and a 2010-2011 model. Narcos tend to go for pickups and SUVs.
 
Hatuey said:
I don't necessarily agree. If I were to buy a car here, it would most definitely be Volkswagen and a 2010-2011 model. Narcos tend to go for pickups and SUVs.
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Exactly. If we buy a new Cadillac or a new Ferrari, we are dead.

I have seen it happen here many many times.
 
Yes, it is probably a good idea to drive a POS in Mexico. Probably a bad idea to drive a Ferrari around Syria too.

If I remember correctly, the Walker accident was in the USA and no witnesses reported hearing gun fire.
 
Mason66 said:
I live in the same type of climate, but when you buy a new car what are you going to do?
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ECMs are not susceptible to corrosion unless submerged. New boat motors have efi and ecms and are not plagued with problems.
Unless they are submerged corrosion is not an issue.
We change out EMCs at work all the time, never had a corrosion issue. Usually something in the flash or a hardware issue.
 
joko104 said:
Ah, but the joy when the light actual comes on and stays on. The feeling of accomplishment!
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Only when someone is paying me my $75.00 per hour. I have done a few old MGs for people. Death traps.
 
CRUE CAB said:
ECMs are not susceptible to corrosion unless submerged. New boat motors have efi and ecms and are not plagued with problems.
Unless they are submerged corrosion is not an issue.
We change out EMCs at work all the time, never had a corrosion issue. Usually something in the flash or a hardware issue.
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What about the connectors though? I have seen many a connector that had corrosion not letting through the signal.
 
joko104 said:
Yes, it is probably a good idea to drive a POS in Mexico. Probably a bad idea to drive a Ferrari around Syria too.

If I remember correctly, the Walker accident was in the USA and no witnesses reported hearing gun fire.
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I just put together a 1974 Dodge Dart 4 door for my daily driver. I like to drive a car that a thief doesn't know if it would start if he tried to steal it.

I found that my 1969 Impala Kingswood Station Wagon gets better mileage than my 2000 Dodge Durango and it has a ton more style.

Nobody would even think if stealing or car jacking that car.
 
Mason66 said:
What about the connectors though? I have seen many a connector that had corrosion not letting through the signal.
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Weatherpack connections rarely if ever all it. Like I said, unless there had been submersion or water intrusion. There is not going to be an issue. It can happen, but no more so than any other break down.
 
joko104 said:
Why would you give up what you got? Srly. The grass often isn't greener on the other side. No matter what you do, someone will always have a faster car. If you enjoy what you got, keep it. Just keep improving it as time and budget allows. Make it cosmetically what you want. Same on interior look. A bit of suspension refining here, a tad on the brakes there. It really doesn't matter what other's think. Other people will always have a more impressive car too. And this year's outdated car is next decade's classic.

What a lot of people don't grasp is that for the most part who are REALLY racing always is only yourself. And if budget is a limit? Old school is the only way to go. What I have now could leave virtually anything in the rearview mirror - which of course is totally worthless. I had vastly more FUN in those old manual transmissions 928s. One was older, meaning the lightest weight, the least horsepower, and lower top speed - ONLY 145 with a lower gear ratio, and it had a factory handling package. Pretty too in dark green and black interior. The other was faded out silver and a trashed burgundy interior, but some NASA guys has put it together with a turbo, 4 massive coils and other engine tricks. 1st gear was worthless it wound it out so fast.

But it was the green one I enjoyed. Handled like a slot car. Coming into a backroad curve marked "35 mph", motor braking throwing into a low gear, power out of the curve at 65. And the next day I'd go for 66. A couple months later its 70 - but I'm getting awfully close to the far side of the pavement. Now THAT'S fun. I had to WORK the car. I sold it for $4500, what I had paid for it. A terrible mistake. Thought I'd like a newer Jag XKR, definitely a FASTER car - so spend $24K for a clean, awesome looking supercharged Jaguar XKR 4.5. I got rid of it after 6 months.

Keep what you got. You know it. Just refine it as time and $$ allows. If you sell you'll probably take a beating - and come to regret it.
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I'll absolutely take a beating on selling it. And it's about as fast as a base C6. I'm not looking at newer vettes to go faster. Fuel injection, safety equipment (mine has a fire extinguisher, and I've actually had to use it!), electricals that work, magnetic shocks, better frame, an endless list of very desirable things. I just don't think I could ever part with the stingray, though.
 
Mason66 said:
I just put together a 1974 Dodge Dart 4 door for my daily driver. I like to drive a car that a thief doesn't know if it would start if he tried to steal it.

I found that my 1969 Impala Kingswood Station Wagon gets better mileage than my 2000 Dodge Durango and it has a ton more style.

Nobody would even think if stealing or car jacking that car.
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That's my vette all the way,lol! Looks like a heap, with shiny wide wheels. Bad paint, hood is primer grey, cracks in the fiberglass, etc. someone walking by wouldn't think "Man, I gotta GET me one of THOSE!" Runs like a champ, though. It's a "sleeper".
 
Lachean said:
He did so much more than acting with his life, before and after fame he used his time and money to help people:
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Great. Really... that is great. So do many people though... So do I. Probably more than him too... directly, at least.
 
joko104 said:
I think that is exactly what happened, though doubt there was a roll over. I think the rear tires lost traction (over power) and then he over-corrected - the engine management doing everything AFTER whatever the driver was doing even without turbo lag. The '05 engine management systems also have more "lag" than new systems. I also suspect he may have been trying to "drift" around the corner, and the Carrera GT is not well suited for drifting. The driver was a race car driver, so probably figured he knew how to do that corner at the max - and lost it because he was in Walker's car and he was unfamiliar with it's quirks.

On my German '05, in terms of management systems - in terms of stability/traction control - everything happens AFTER, not when, I do it.
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So much wrong with this post.

1. The EMS has exactly NOTHING to do with this crash.
2. A "2005 EMS" does not have any "lag".
3. The Carrera GT is perfectly capable of drifting.
4. The car did not belong to Paul. In fact, it was the first time he had ever been in it.

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Unrelated to the quoted post, but, the car was having mechanical issues before they took it out for the drive. Workers from the shop have said that there was a steering failure which caused the accident. I have seen a picture of a large puddle of fluid followed by the skid marks into the tree. All of this speculation in here is pretty much nonsense.
 
505 said:
So much wrong with this post.

1. The EMS has exactly NOTHING to do with this crash.
2. A "2005 EMS" does not have any "lag".
3. The Carrera GT is perfectly capable of drifting.
4. The car did not belong to Paul. In fact, it was the first time he had ever been in it.

-----------------

Unrelated to the quoted post, but, the car was having mechanical issues before they took it out for the drive. Workers from the shop have said that there was a steering failure which caused the accident. I have seen a picture of a large puddle of fluid followed by the skid marks into the tree. All of this speculation in here is pretty much nonsense.
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You have a link on the steering failure?
 
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