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Corporations Aren't People

if the 17th amendment was repealed....states would have power again in the federal government [senate], ..to put an end to corporations powers, and those of other special interest......with the 17th, this moves america closer to democracy...and democracy is FILLED WITH SPECIAL INTEREST.

the founders created republican government...not democracy........they sought to limit as much as they could special interest.....by creating separation of power......a republican form of government.........article 4 section 4 of the u.s. constitution.

They certainly didn't want to create a Banana Republic.
 
One that you don't seem to have the guts to address directly!

Sorry dude, I already dropped the economic truth a bit higher up.

I don't get dodgeball tips from a fat kid, and I don't get economic tips from a communist.
 
if the 17th amendment was repealed....states would have power again in the federal government [senate], ..to put an end to corporations powers, and those of other special interest......with the 17th, this moves america closer to democracy...and democracy is FILLED WITH SPECIAL INTEREST.

the founders created republican government...not democracy........they sought to limit as much as they could special interest.....by creating separation of power......a republican form of government.........article 4 section 4 of the u.s. constitution.

I always thought that the Revolutionary War was about the power of the Bank of England, the King's bank, and the monies that founded and controlled the Colonies. The Banks had too much power and does that sound familiar?
 
I agree with his points which have nothing to do with Communism.

FWIW, I'm not even a Marxist, as my exploration of Marxism has revealed that online communist communities are bitterly ideologically divided on many issues...from government to economics to family life to feminism to environment etc.. There is debate among Marxists regarding to what degree Marx and Engels believed they had arrived at some sort of end stage of ideological truth, or merely wanted their followers to continue striving and incorporating new knowledge and understanding in developing Marxist theories.

A clear example comes from a group of leftist environmentalists who are sometimes referred to as ecosocialists. In general, the environment...which is my no. 1 issue...is not addressed hardly by Marx and Engels, while the nations that claimed to be creating communism, like the Soviet Union and China, were hell-bent to follow the same rampant exploitation of the environment that the capitalist western nations followed. Nowadays, the environment has become such a clear crisis for everyone today, that Marx's followers have to also get in step with proposing ways to deal with climate change and other hot environmental issues. The problem they have as an ideology, is that Marxism is based on the same materialistic premise that all enlightenment philosophies are: instead of people being dependent on nature and having to live within nature's limits, nature is just a set of components to be exploited for our gain. Trying to craft an eco-friendly Marxism may be just as difficult as creating environmentally friendly forms of capitalism!

What I am sure of is that Karl Marx has the best critique of capitalism and the best explanations for the failure of capitalism today.
 
if the 17th amendment was repealed....states would have power again in the federal government [senate], ..to put an end to corporations powers, and those of other special interest......with the 17th, this moves america closer to democracy...and democracy is FILLED WITH SPECIAL INTEREST.

the founders created republican government...not democracy........they sought to limit as much as they could special interest.....by creating separation of power......a republican form of government.........article 4 section 4 of the u.s. constitution.

you seem to be ignoring the history of the senate.

U.S. Senate: Art & History Home > Origins & Development > Institutional Development > Direct Election of Senators

This process seemed to work well until the mid-1850s. At that time, growing hostilities in various states resulted in vacant Senate seats. In Indiana, for example, the conflict between Democrats in the southern half of the state and the emerging Republican party in the northern half prevented the election of any candidate, thereby leaving the Senate seat vacant for two years. This marked the beginning of many contentious battles in state legislatures, as the struggle to elect senators reflected the increasing tensions over slavery and states' rights which led to the Civil War.

After the Civil War, problems in senatorial elections by the state legislatures multiplied. In one case in the late 1860s, the election of Senator John Stockton of New Jersey was contested on the grounds that he had been elected by a plurality rather than a majority in the state legislature. Stockton based his defense on the observation that not all states elected their senators in the same way, and presented a report that illustrated the inconsistency in state elections of senators. In response, Congress passed a law in 1866 regulating how and when senators were elected in each state. This was the first change in the process of senatorial elections created by the Founders. The law helped but did not entirely solve the problem, and deadlocks in some legislatures continued to cause long vacancies in some Senate seats.

Intimidation and bribery marked some of the states' selection of senators. Nine bribery cases were brought before the Senate between 1866 and 1906. In addition, forty-five deadlocks occurred in twenty states between 1891 and 1905, resulting in numerous delays in seating senators. In 1899, problems in electing a senator in Delaware were so acute that the state legislature did not send a senator to Washington for four years.

The impetus for reform began as early as 1826 , when direct election of senators was first proposed. In the 1870s, voters sent a petition to the House of Representatives for a popular election. From 1893 to 1902, momentum increased considerably. Each year during that period, a constitutional amendment to elect senators by popular vote was proposed in Congress, but the Senate fiercely resisted change, despite the frequent vacancies and disputed election results. In the mid-1890s, the Populist party incorporated the direct election of senators into its party platform, although neither the Democrats nor the Republicans paid much notice at the time. In the early 1900s, one state initiated changes on its own. Oregon pioneered direct election and experimented with different measures over several years until it succeeded in 1907. Soon after, Nebraska followed suit and laid the foundation for other states to adopt measures reflecting the people's will. Senators who resisted reform had difficulty ignoring the growing support for direct election of senators.

After the turn of the century, momentum for reform grew rapidly. William Randolph Hearst expanded his publishing empire with Cosmopolitan, and championed the cause of direct election with muckraking articles and strong advocacy of reform. Hearst hired a veteran reporter, David Graham Phillips, who wrote scathing pieces on senators, portraying them as pawns of industrialists and financiers. The pieces became a series titled "The Treason of the Senate," which appeared in several monthly issues of the magazine in 1906. These articles galvanized the public into maintaining pressure on the Senate for reform.
 
Sorry dude, I already dropped the economic truth a bit higher up.

I don't get dodgeball tips from a fat kid, and I don't get economic tips from a communist.

And I don't consider the wisdom of libertarians...who believe natural selection theory applies to social interactions, and have no prescriptions to deal with concentrations of private power. Libertarian and similar objectivist ideologies, are scams crafted by the rich and powerful to justify an unequal distribution of wealth.
 
Are there enough college students and retirees to fill all the retail jobs?

Are there jobs for them to move into to allow the next crop have a job?

Retail used to be a full time job that paid a living wage.

Remember the days when clerks had encyclopedic knowledge of the products they sold?

When they rendered real service?

I do.

You get what you pay for.

It really wasn't. The small mom and pop stores would hire a couple of kids to checkout and bag groceries or even deliver them. There weren't a whole lot of dad's working there.

But, for the sake of argument, let's say you are correct. Welcome to the 21st century, where if you want to make a decent living and enough to comfortably raise kids, you best have some marketable skills.

Gone are the days of a grocery store paying what you would consider a living wage - as it just makes the cost of business too expensive and there are multitudes of individuals willing to take a job at a lower wage point.
 
It doesn't matter what you think is right or not, or how clear your point. I don't think the ruling on Obamacare was right. However, the Constitution makes it right. I think the Citizens United ruling was right. Now what?

No. Their interpretation of the Constitution. That is the point. You are indicating that their ruling is accurate. I pointed out that this is not always so. That's what.
 
if the 17th amendment was repealed....states would have power again in the federal government [senate], ..to put an end to corporations powers, and those of other special interest......with the 17th, this moves america closer to democracy...and democracy is FILLED WITH SPECIAL INTEREST.
Weren't most of the expansions of corporate rights created by the courts? The Citizen's United decision that has made unlimited corporate campaign funding possible, was a gift from the Supremes!
the founders created republican government...not democracy........they sought to limit as much as they could special interest.....by creating separation of power......a republican form of government.........article 4 section 4 of the u.s. constitution.
I've heard that before, and every time I'm left wondering why conservatives talk on endlessly about encouraging democracy in foreign countries, while refraining from using the word at home.
 
I always thought that the Revolutionary War was about the power of the Bank of England, the King's bank, and the monies that founded and controlled the Colonies. The Banks had too much power and does that sound familiar?

one thing that set the people of America off was the stamp act, every piece of paper had to have the kings stamp on it.

it was the king, that the founders set their sites on, they even tried to work with the king over their disagreements, the king send them a letter, to the continental congress refusing to work with them over problems and even threating them.
 

and as I asked you before

what would you rather have........corruption on a large scale [federal] or corruption on a small scale [a state]. I chose the latter..

because it is easier to clean up corruption on a state level then it is a national level.

corruption shall always exist, the object it to contain it ........................to limited scale........why the founders created limited government.
 
Weren't most of the expansions of corporate rights created by the courts? The Citizen's United decision that has made unlimited corporate campaign funding possible, was a gift from the Supremes!.


only because the law was created [lobbying of special interest] then challenged, if the senate had been in the state hands, the legislation would have not seen the light of day to begin with let alone reach the court.


I've heard that before, and every time I'm left wondering why conservatives talk on endlessly about encouraging democracy in foreign countries, while refraining from using the word at home.

democracy is a vile form of government-- james madsion father of the constitution.

faction/ special interest....... is huge by-product of democracy, ..it is always at war with individual rights of the people.

federalist 10 --The other point of difference is, the greater number of citizens and extent of territory which may be brought within the compass of republican than of democratic government; and it is this circumstance principally which rendersfactious combinations less to be dreaded in the former than in the latter
 
here is what i took from your statement

you stated plainly....."If the owner wants to come out and say what he/she believes than fine".........so the business has an.... owner.

if someone owns the property, then that property follows his lead.......its not a collective business......no other person else gets to decide policy that affects the company.

reproductive rights?........you have your opinion, and can voice your opinion,....... however that opinion cannot damage my property if you are my employee.

and as an employee you have no authority to force the owner to give him things, he wants.
If he /she speaks for the company and the matter is about -- example -- reproductive rights instead of the business direction than I wouldn't care for it. Let the owner state their personal beliefs individually instead of collectively.

Owner: "This company is going to make steel product as well as plastic." (acceptable)

Owner: "This company does not believe in abortion." (unacceptable)
 
I disagree, either everyone's interest are represented or no one's is.
If a business doesnt represent you, dont work there. If i ran a business i would speak out for gun owners and say "guns are welcome here, we respect the second amendment", if you dont like it, work somewhere else.
And I don't consider the wisdom of libertarians...who believe natural selection theory applies to social interactions, and have no prescriptions to deal with concentrations of private power. Libertarian and similar objectivist ideologies, are scams crafted by the rich and powerful to justify an unequal distribution of wealth.
Yeah its all a ****ing conspiracy. Heres a prescription: if you dont like a business dont shop there. Dont work there. Dont give your business to people you dont like.
 
If he /she speaks for the company and the matter is about -- example -- reproductive rights instead of the business direction than I wouldn't care for it. Let the owner state their personal beliefs individually instead of collectively.

Owner: "This company is going to make steel product as well as plastic." (acceptable)

Owner: "This company does not believe in abortion." (unacceptable)

excuse.... but its the owners company and he can make any statements he wishes on HIS company, you are saying he can only make statements acceptable to you.

you don't have authority to stop a business man from making statements on his own property .


If one disagrees then they have the liberty to disagree, however they have no right to create division of the company because they don't like the companies position, the company is owed by one, it is not owned or managed by the workers ..a collective.
 
If he /she speaks for the company and the matter is about -- example -- reproductive rights instead of the business direction than I wouldn't care for it. Let the owner state their personal beliefs individually instead of collectively.

Owner: "This company is going to make steel product as well as plastic." (acceptable)

Owner: "This company does not believe in abortion." (unacceptable)

If you find it unacceptable, dont work there.
 
If a business doesnt represent you, dont work there. If i ran a business i would speak out for gun owners and say "guns are welcome here, we respect the second amendment", if you dont like it, work somewhere else.

So you buy this company and change the policy to allow people to bring in guns because you respect the second Amendment. So then what happens when one worker shoots another and you get sued for helping to create a work environment that encouraged guns in the workplace?
 
excuse.... but its the owners company and he can make any statements he wishes on HIS company, you are saying he can only make statements acceptable to you.

you don't have authority to stop a business man from making statements on his own property .


If one disagrees then they have the liberty to disagree, however they have no right to create division of the company because they don't like the companies position, the company is owed by one, it is not owned or managed by the workers ..a collective.
Sorry, but he doesn't own people. What's next? He states: "this company only attends the church that I go to?" :roll:
 
So you buy this company and change the policy to allow people to bring in guns because you respect the second Amendment. So then what happens when one worker shoots another and you get sued for helping to create a work environment that encouraged guns in the workplace?
I wouldnt hire a worker so incompetent. What happens when my store never gets robbed? And i would encourage guns. Not murder.
Why should I be forced to leave over any belief? :shrug:

No force. Your decision.
 
they created a government of divided power, mixed government, what is known as republican government

the people have half the power and the states have the other half.

And my point is government shouldn't be concerned with the economic benefits of corporations.
 
Sorry, but he doesn't own people. What's next? He states: "this company only attends the church that I go to?" :roll:

If a private business wants to only hire people who attend a certain church, i am fine with that.
 
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