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Corporations Aren't People

Fact is, employees continue to accept these wages. We live in a free market society (for now). If you dont like what someone offers, you dont have to take it. I am 20 and have never worked a minimum wage job in my life.
 
Phil_Osophy said:
Fact is, employees continue to accept these wages. We live in a free market society (for now). If you dont like what someone offers, you dont have to take it. I am 20 and have never worked a minimum wage job in my life.
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Accepting wages does not address balance of power.
 
rabbitcaebannog said:
Accepting wages does not address balance of power.
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Of course it doesnt. You address balance of power by giving businesses you dont like the death penalty. Liberals constantly cry about walmart and mcdonalds not paying enough, then they go to walmart and buy something and get mcdonalds on the way home. If you truly dont like how a business operates, dont do business with them. I dont think mcdonalds pays their workers enough. So i dont eat there and wont work there. Thats the way a free market works.
 
Phil_Osophy said:
Of course it doesnt. You address balance of power by giving businesses you dont like the death penalty. Liberals constantly cry about walmart and mcdonalds not paying enough, then they go to walmart and buy something and get mcdonalds on the way home. If you truly dont like how a business operates, dont do business with them. I dont think mcdonalds pays their workers enough. So i dont eat there and wont work there. Thats the way a free market works.
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Just so you know, I don't give them my business. That does not mean many people are aware of the many issues places like this cause on our economic system.
 
rabbitcaebannog said:
No, their profit margins just aren't the same as places that undercut their worker's wages.
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Walmart's profit margin is not that large. They have the money they do because a) they get subsidies they don't need from Washington, and b) they have geographical saturation. One Walmart store makes profit, but 25,000 of them makes super-profit. The source of their profit comes from suppliers cutting them deals for buying in absurd levels of bulk, and paying workers a relatively low (but still legal and marketable) wage. Walmart employees make a little more than minimum wage - not much, but a little.

You can't tell me that Walmart has a significantly different profit margin than the local chain that pays their employees more than they're worth. They probably operate with the same amount (give or take 2%) and just pass along their inefficient wages and supplier relationships with considerably more expensive groceries.

That's why I said that if you slapped a Walmart smack dab in the midst of those grocery chains, they'd be hurting badly. Of course, I support any community that doesn't want Walmart in its midst. It's a destructive force overall. I just don't want them coming to my side of the street, dictating what happens here.
 
rabbitcaebannog said:
Just so you know, I don't give them my business. That does not mean many people are aware of the many issues places like this cause on our economic system.
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You must have missed the part about us living in a free market. In a free market, the people who work there and shop there are at fault. Again, i am 20 and have never worked for minimum wage in my life. Why? Because i didnt feel that was enough for me to live on. So i went down the road and found something else. If everyone who was unsatisfied with the wages did that, mcdonalds would offer higher wages.
 
Gipper said:
Walmart's profit margin is not that large. They have the money they do because a) they get subsidies they don't need from Washington, and b) they have geographical saturation. One Walmart store makes profit, but 25,000 of them makes super-profit. The source of their profit comes from suppliers cutting them deals for buying in absurd levels of bulk, and paying workers a relatively low (but still legal and marketable) wage. Walmart employees make a little more than minimum wage - not much, but a little.

You can't tell me that Walmart has a significantly different profit margin than the local chain that pays their employees more than they're worth. They probably operate with the same amount (give or take 2%) and just pass along their inefficient wages and supplier relationships with considerably more expensive groceries.

That's why I said that if you slapped a Walmart smack dab in the midst of those grocery chains, they'd be hurting badly. Of course, I support any community that doesn't want Walmart in its midst. It's a destructive force overall. I just don't want them coming to my side of the street, dictating what happens here.
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Give or take 2% is a lot. With that said, I give you kudos on many of your other points, which gives an imbalance of power for Walmart to wipe out the competition. We are fortunate to have well informed and active members in our community to keep them out.
 
Phil_Osophy said:
You must have missed the part about us living in a free market. In a free market, the people who work there and shop there are at fault. Again, i am 20 and have never worked for minimum wage in my life. Why? Because i didnt feel that was enough for me to live on. So i went down the road and found something else. If everyone who was unsatisfied with the wages did that, mcdonalds would offer higher wages.
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Subsidies do not in any way support a free market system. If we had a free market, I would agree with you. Perhaps, your area still has active competition which is a good thing but more and more areas are losing it.
 
rabbitcaebannog said:
Subsidies do not in any way support a free market system. If we had a free market, I would agree with you. Perhaps, your area still has active competition which is a good thing but more and more areas are losing it.
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I agree. And i am completely opposed to all business subsidies of all kinds.
 
rabbitcaebannog said:
Subsidies do not in any way support a free market system. If we had a free market, I would agree with you. Perhaps, your area still has active competition which is a good thing but more and more areas are losing it.
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These places would still go out of business even with subsidies if everyone just stopped shopping there and working there. Really, theres a whole chain of problems on this subject.
 
Phil_Osophy said:
These places would still go out of business even with subsidies if everyone just stopped shopping there and working there. Really, theres a whole chain of problems on this subject.
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True, but you have to have a well informed public for that to work.
 
rabbitcaebannog said:
Give or take 2% is a lot. With that said, I give you kudos on many of your other points, which gives an imbalance of power for Walmart to wipe out the competition. We are fortunate to have well informed and active members in our community to keep them out.
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I don't know if I'd call it a "lot", but it's noticeable.

Do I like Walmart? No. Do I shop there? Yes. I'm sure customer service is better at those markets around you because - well, let's call a spade a spade. Walmart hires morons. Now, by paying more than the market dictates, those expensive grocery stores can attract a higher caliber of people. Walmart is fine with a "warm body" philosophy of filling schedules and payroll. For people who care more about customer service, community, etc. those grocery stores around you make sense. I'm interested in the bottom line and the lowest price. Because of that, I shop Walmart.

There is room for both. Lots of people will pay a premium for aspects Walmart cannot provide. I'm just not one of them.
 
Gipper said:
I don't know if I'd call it a "lot", but it's noticeable.

Do I like Walmart? No. Do I shop there? Yes. I'm sure customer service is better at those markets around you because - well, let's call a spade a spade. Walmart hires morons. Now, by paying more than the market dictates, those expensive grocery stores can attract a higher caliber of people. Walmart is fine with a "warm body" philosophy of filling schedules and payroll. For people who care more about customer service, community, etc. those grocery stores around you make sense. I'm interested in the bottom line and the lowest price. Because of that, I shop Walmart.

There is room for both. Lots of people will pay a premium for aspects Walmart cannot provide. I'm just not one of them.
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Well Gipper I agree with a lot of what you sat except I don't pay a premium. I shop for a family of 5 and have a very strict budget. I get lots of bang for my buck.
 
rabbitcaebannog said:
Well Gipper I agree with a lot of what you sat except I don't pay a premium. I shop for a family of 5 and have a very strict budget. I get lots of bang for my buck.
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I'd still like to see a sale paper. Down here we have a chain called Publix that pay people reasonably well, but DAMN are they hella expensive. I mean DAY-UM expensive.

Food's great, great selection, fresh produce, good workers. You're paying out your ass though.
 
Gipper said:
I'd still like to see a sale paper. Down here we have a chain called Publix that pay people reasonably well, but DAMN are they hella expensive. I mean DAY-UM expensive.

Food's great, great selection, fresh produce, good workers. You're paying out your ass though.
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I'm not familiar with Publix but when I lived in TN for 5 years, they had a place called a Food Lion which I found pricey. There was only one other store besides Walmart in my area (we traveled an extra 45 minutes to get to) called BiLo. Neither of those places had prices like I see here.
 
rabbitcaebannog said:
I'm not familiar with Publix but when I lived in TN for 5 years, they had a place called a Food Lion which I found pricey. There was only one other store besides Walmart in my area (we traveled an extra 45 minutes to get to) called BiLo. Neither of those places had prices like I see here.
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You gotta really have a chip to drive 45 minutes out of the way to grocery shop.
 
Fisher said:
Let me guess, it is okay for a union to speak for all their members as a collective in endorsing a Progressive candidate? But, but....
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Gipper said:
Well, you are. You're talking about markets in your area paying workers more than the market determines that they're worth. If people want to expose themselves to that, they can.

Put a Walmart supercenter in your area, and we'll see if people still don't mind paying a 30% higher grocery bill just so some high school scrub can get a Lexus.
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I hate it when threads take such drastic turns because somebody figured they were losing the argument so they skillfully deflect just to change the subject. You'll really not arguing the merits of competitive wages. You're really arguing corporate control. "He who controls the money controls..."...the world? Or atleast everything within their circle of influence. And Big Corp in bed w/big politics is exactly what you're arguing only you mask it by attemting to through people off by injecting false arguments into the equation, I.e., power of unions, competitive wages. The power of the corporation is in his profits. "Money talks" as they saying goes. Citizenz United took that saying and made it real.
 
Objective Voice said:
I hate it when threads take such drastic turns because somebody figured they were losing the argument so they skillfully deflect just to change the subject. You'll really not arguing the merits of competitive wages. You're really arguing corporate control. "He who controls the money controls..."...the world? Or atleast everything within their circle of influence. And Big Corp in bed w/big politics is exactly what you're arguing only you mask it by attemting to through people off by injecting false arguments into the equation, I.e., power of unions, competitive wages. The power of the corporation is in his profits. "Money talks" as they saying goes. Citizenz United took that saying and made it real.
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Talk about strawmen. Competitive wage isn't what was being discussed. It is whether or not an organization speaks for all its members, meriting derivative Constitutional Bill of Rights protections. I assume you really hate it when people stay on topic, or at least in the ballpark :doh
 
Gipper said:
I'd still like to see a sale paper. Down here we have a chain called Publix that pay people reasonably well, but DAMN are they hella expensive. I mean DAY-UM expensive.

Food's great, great selection, fresh produce, good workers. You're paying out your ass though.
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The two largest chains in my area are Jewel (where my wife works) and Dominicks. Dominicks is going out of business (I think December is the end date), largely because their prices were so high - thanks in large part to their unions. A few years back Dominicks tried renegotiating with their unions to try to get a reasonable contract. They failed and tried to sell the business. No one was interested due to their labor costs. I live across the street from one, and used to stop in there to pick up an item or two - due to convenience - and almost always walked out with nothing due to their prices.

Jewel is in trouble too.. Again due mainly to their union payroll. Their long time union work force makes their expenses so high, that they can't compete with Walmart and the other non-union stores up here and not high enough quality to compete with the Marianos and Whole Foods. I guess that happens when you are forced to pay your longer term cashiers $20.00 per hour ($30.00 on Sundays) plus benefits to grab an item and swipe it across a scanner.
 
Those who are agruing against corporate person-hood do so on moral grounds. As such, you will lose your argument each and every time. Why? Because you can't legislate morality. Those who are for corporate person-hood do so from a legalistic standpoint, specifically equaly representation. Let's see if we can separate truth from fiction.

Iindividuals are sentient beings. They think and act in their own self interest. Corporations are entities conceived by man. As such, their very power is derived by the laws that govern them instituted by man. The argument of "collective rights" of the employee through union representation versus the representative power approved by a corporation's Board of Directors as granted by majority vote by its shareholders who "own" a company's stock can be construed as the same. How?

By this one simple act: communicating the voting actions to those most affected by the decision. Problem here is if there is no bridge - no voice -between the corporation and the emloyee, it in effect means the corporation can do whatever it wants and claims it did so in the interest of itself and/or its shareholders. And while is true that a corporation's first and second responsibilities are: 1) to make a profit, and 2) its shareholders, it's only as powerful as the people allow it to be.
 
buck said:
The two largest chains in my area are Jewel (where my wife works) and Dominicks. Dominicks is going out of business (I think December is the end date), largely because their prices were so high - thanks in large part to their unions. A few years back Dominicks tried renegotiating with their unions to try to get a reasonable contract. They failed and tried to sell the business. No one was interested due to their labor costs. I live across the street from one, and used to stop in there to pick up an item or two - due to convenience - and almost always walked out with nothing due to their prices.

Jewel is in trouble too.. Again due mainly to their union payroll. Their long time union work force makes their expenses so high, that they can't compete with Walmart and the other non-union stores up here and not high enough quality to compete with the Marianos and Whole Foods. I guess that happens when you are forced to pay your longer term cashiers $20.00 per hour ($30.00 on Sundays) plus benefits to grab an item and swipe it across a scanner.
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False. In TN the two chains I mentioned had higher prices but we're not unionized. The difference is that Walmart has more power to dominate their suppliers.
 
rabbitcaebannog said:
False. In TN the two chains I mentioned had higher prices but we're not unionized. The difference is that Walmart has more power to dominate their suppliers.
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Tell it to the grocery market analysts that have reviewed the market and made those determinations. I can't speak to what is occurring in TN in your area, but I suspect there is more then what you are saying.
 
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