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Obama Rejects Latest House GOP Offer

Oftencold said:
One must look, that one might see.


No. I assert, quite rationally, that any entity that denies the nature of arithmetic is incompetent to approach more complex mathematics. We have a suicidal level of debt, and our arithmetically challenged pols wish to expand it far further. Barring deliberate malice, they can be capable of such acts only because they fail to grasp the most fundamental aspects of arithmetic.


Seriously, what possible use can appeals to higher math be when one fails to grasp that if Johnny has $10, one cannot steal $12 from him in order to pay off one's friends? This sort of realization is alien to the Federal Government.
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Bless your heart.
 
winston53660 said:
I'm not wondering who shut down the government. I know it is some ideological nut wads who take Ayn Rand to heart. Whoa six whole weeks in a nation that has been around 200+ years.
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They gave the President exactly what he wanted - a clean CR. The President came out and said "pass a clean CR, raise the debt limit, and I'll negotiate". They gave him an opportunity to put his money where his mouth was - and he backed off. Because his real intention here is to turn this to partisan advantage, and compromising when he can try to split the Republican party doesn't give him that.
 
cpwill said:
They gave the President exactly what he wanted - a clean CR. The President came out and said "pass a clean CR, raise the debt limit, and I'll negotiate". They gave him an opportunity to put his money where his mouth was - and he backed off. Because his real intention here is to turn this to partisan advantage, and compromising when he can try to split the Republican party doesn't give him that.
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A clean CR that includes opening the government back up. Which the republicans did not offer. Like I said, they are children who don't care about governance. People are suffering because of this shutdown and it needed to end last week.
 
winston53660 said:
Nope, because people are becoming more free to live their lives as they are.
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That's fantastic to hear. So the size of the Federal Registrar, serving as a measure of state interference in our lives, is shrinking, then, is it?
 
Your Star said:
A clean CR that includes opening the government back up. Which the republicans did not offer.
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On the contrary - the deal did indeed open the government back up.

Like I said, they are children who don't care about governance.
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Unlike Leader "why should I care if I can save a child" Reid and President "why should I sign a bill that would help people when doing so would take pressure off of Republicans" Obama?

Republicans are the only ones thus far that have offered any compromises in the name of good governance. I'm not saying they're great, and I'm sure not saying they are operating on a desirable model, but if you want to start pointing fingers around that town in the intention of finding out which party is demonstrably more dedicated to good governance....

People are suffering because of this shutdown and it needed to end last week.
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Hey, I'm one of them. I'm supposed to be moving my family back to the states - but we are stuck here overseas until this thing opens up. My ability to get a job and take care of my family is getting chipped away at day by day by this thing. It's already cost me money, and will cost me more before it's over. That's why I want the damn President to stop acting like a petulant child and compromise like an adult.
 
Oftencold said:
People can dart about like butterflies singing peons to their freedoms, real and imaginary, sublime and perverse, until that not too distant future in which they discover that they are wholly owned by our creditors, or by hostiles that we haven't the power or will to resist.
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Tone it down. Atlas Shrugged was a book. It was intended to entertain not to grow the population of the mentally ill.

vasuderatorrent
 
Your Star said:
People are suffering because of this shutdown
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Where are these suffering people? I haven't met any of them. My $15,080 per year salary is still the same. I am still vulnerable to lose my income tomorrow for any reason or no reason at all. My income and my level of vulnerability doesn't decrease when government employees earning $75,000 per year get fired.

Why should we cater to 800,000 citizens who are robbing the government blind while ignoring the other 34,000,000 citizens that would be thrilled to have a job earning $15,080 per year? The government isn't mandated to make bad decisions. Many companies, charities, state governments and local governments have been firing their high paid employees and replacing them with cheaper labor since 2009. Why should the government continue to submit to the demands of these 800,000 thieves? This is outrageous. Fire them all and fire them 5 years ago.

Yes people suffer when they get fired but government has to look out for the whole country not just one sad story. Do us all a favor start looking at the whole picture.

vasuderatorrent
 
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cpwill said:
On the contrary - the deal did indeed open the government back up.
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No it did not, it would have increased the debt ceiling, but not open up the government. Your information is wrong, try getting information that doesn't come from biased, unreliable sites like the on you posted in the OP.

Unlike Leader "why should I care if I can save a child" Reid and President "why should I sign a bill that would help people when doing so would take pressure off of Republicans" Obama?

Republicans are the only ones thus far that have offered any compromises in the name of good governance. I'm not saying they're great, and I'm sure not saying they are operating on a desirable model, but if you want to start pointing fingers around that town in the intention of finding out which party is demonstrably more dedicated to good governance....
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That is not what they said, you are just not presenting the facts at all. They both want a clean CR that opens the government, what they are against, and rightfully so, is the republicans putting up piecemeal legislation funding the government instead of funding the government as a whole. That is just bad governance, and that was done for the sole purpose so they could put out those exact talking points you just parroted. It was a political maneuver and nothing more. They didn't give a **** about the kids with cancer or people trying to get into memorials; they just wanted to score political points.

Hey, I'm one of them. I'm supposed to be moving my family back to the states - but we are stuck here overseas until this thing opens up. My ability to get a job and take care of my family is getting chipped away at day by day by this thing. It's already cost me money, and will cost me more before it's over. That's why I want the damn President to stop acting like a petulant child and compromise like an adult.
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I am as well; we were supposed to move last weekend but can't until the shutdown is over. We are getting a home loan from the USDA and our paperwork was at the very last stage when the shutdown started and it completely screwed us. We've lost money and we'll likely lose more because we are having to stay in the house we are renting, the rent costs more than our mortgage for the new house will be, until the shutdown is over. Plus the house we are renting is falling apart and the house we are moving into is very nice and isn't filled with mold, has adequate room for all of our pets, doesn't let water leak all over the garage floor when it rains, and the plumbing doesn't leak and ruin the ceiling in the room where our dog sleeps.

This is why I want the damn GOP to stop acting like petulant children and compromise like adults.
 
Your Star said:
They didn't give a **** about the kids with cancer or people trying to get into memorials; they just wanted to score political points.
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Congress passed these bills with little opposition from Republicans:

H.J.Res.70 Open Our National Parks and Museums Bill (1 republican against)

H.J.Res.73 Research For Life Saving Cures Bill (1 republican against)

H.J.Res.85 National Emergency and Disaster Recovery Bill (0 Republicans against)

H.J.Res 75 Nutrition Assistance for Low-Income Women and Children Bill (0 republicans against)

H.R.3223 Federal Employee Retroactive Pay Fairness Act (0 Republicans against)

H.J.Res.77 Food & Drug Safety Bill (1 Republican against)

H.J.Res.84 Head Start For Low-Income Children Bill (2 Republicans against)

H.J.Res.89 Federal Worker Pay Fairness Bill (0 Republicans against)

Wouldn't it be funny for democrats to allow it to backfire on Republicans by signing these pieces of legislation into law? It would force the Republicans to get something that they didn't even want. Sorry. I have a sick and twisted sense of humor but republicans should be punished for being phoney.

vasuderatorrent
 
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The President is right to reject the 6-week offer. It would create economic uncertainty heading into the Christmas shopping season.
 
I would say the rpesident is correct in doing what he did and I'll tell you why. Congress as a whole needs to think beyond partisan crap like 6 weeks. It's damn well known that this is just a delay on the GOP part and Dem part as well. We need a WHOLE budget and soluition, not just something that looks pretty on an election cycle of 2014.

The fact of the matter spending cuts need to happen, but they aren't going to happen as drastically as the tea party conservatives want. And I say that as someone who supports cuts. What the tea party wants is Ron Paul style cuts, it just isnt' going to happen in this short of time. While the Dems have failed to come up with the budget, the GOP has gone right along with it allowing it.

Bottom line is, there won't be DRASTIC cuts and the right needs to realize this. If they don't like it, use it as a point for the 2014 mid-term elections.
 
TheNextEra said:
I would say the rpesident is correct in doing what he did and I'll tell you why. Congress as a whole needs to think beyond partisan crap like 6 weeks. It's damn well known that this is just a delay on the GOP part and Dem part as well. We need a WHOLE budget and soluition, not just something that looks pretty on an election cycle of 2014.

The fact of the matter spending cuts need to happen, but they aren't going to happen as drastically as the tea party conservatives want. And I say that as someone who supports cuts. What the tea party wants is Ron Paul style cuts, it just isnt' going to happen in this short of time. While the Dems have failed to come up with the budget, the GOP has gone right along with it allowing it.

Bottom line is, there won't be DRASTIC cuts and the right needs to realize this. If they don't like it, use it as a point for the 2014 mid-term elections.
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except the differences between what the democrats and republicans on the issue of creating a budget are as vast as the Marianas trench
 
Unitedwestand13 said:
except the differences between what the democrats and republicans on the issue of creating a budget are as vast as the Marianas trench
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Yes, they are. However, after 4 years, don't you think the government should have a budget? I do a 6 month budget of my household and can't imagine going 4 years without one and remain successful. Can you?
 
TheNextEra said:
Yes, they are. However, after 4 years, don't you think the government should have a budget?
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yes but i think you have to lock the congress and senate inside their respective rooms and do not let them out until they have a budget, oh and cut their access to press conferences so they can focus on work and not pulling off stupid stunts.
 
Unitedwestand13 said:
yes but i think you have to lock the congress and senate inside their respective rooms and do not let them out until they have a budget, oh and cut their access to press conferences so they can focus on work and not pulling off stupid stunts.
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I'm more of the favor of if they cannot come up with the budget in the time frame, all of them go without pay until they do and if they do not come up with one within a time frame of say 1 month, we hold elections for ALL members of congress.
 
TheNextEra said:
I'm more of the favor of if they cannot come up with the budget in the time frame, all of them go without pay until they do and if they do not come up with one within a time frame of say 1 month, we hold elections for ALL members of congress.
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sadly the 27th amendment prevents congressional pay being altered untill the next election, plus the way the senate elections work is that they are staggered, so only 1/3 of the senate is up for grabs every election year.

i say lock them up in their respective chambers and don't let them out until they have a budget. it works for the college of cardinals when they elect a pope.
 
vasuderatorrent said:
Tone it down. Atlas Shrugged was a book. It was intended to entertain not to grow the population of the mentally ill.

vasuderatorrent
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That is toned down.

I'm a history buff. I know all too well how quickly "normal life" can be obliterated in war, subjugation, and ruin. As a society, we've traded a willingness to face harsh realities with limited resources and the assurance that progress is bought with pain and suffering for childish illusions in which evil and want can be magically erased.

Need I list all the societies that thought themselves permanent, stable and secure and are dust now?
 
Oftencold said:
The right does not. However, very many people who wrongly fancy themselves to be on the right do.
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So you are not one of those conservatives that ignore the fact that Social Security is not a government function and the biggest drain on the United States budget?

You are not one of those conservatives that believe all of our financial problems would be solved by eliminating government waste?

You are not one of those conservatives that violently defends their right to gooble up government goodies but forbids anybody else from doing so?

You are not one of those conservatives that oppose higher taxes while protecting massive spending?

Conservatives really make me mad which is confusing because I am a conservative myself.

vasuderatorrent
 
vasuderatorrent said:
So you are not one of those conservatives that ignore the fact that Social Security is not a government function and the biggest drain on the United States budget?

You are not one of those conservatives that believe all of our financial problems would be solved by eliminating government waste?

You are not one of those conservatives that violently defends their right to gooble up government goodies but forbids anybody else from doing so?

You are not one of those conservatives that oppose higher taxes while protecting massive spending?

Conservatives really make me mad which is confusing because I am a conservative myself.

vasuderatorrent
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Here are some of my stream of consciousness thoughts:

I favor abolishing Social Security, and most other Federal Entitlement Programs.

This is not to say that many of those programs do not address needs, but the Federal government, often any government is a poor tool for those goals.

We should certainly feed the blameless poor in some manner -- as a society which is very different than doing so as the unwilling compulsory servants of a government.

Where government programs must exist -- and there are few, they should exist at the most decentralized and local levels practicable.

Separation of government and elementary education is far more important than separation of church and state.

The Congress with a super-majority of both houses should be able to overrule the Supreme Court.

Barring war or certified national disaster the Federal Government should never be allowed to take out loans.

We should budget so that the government runs a modest surplus in normal years.

The poor should not be guaranteed a middle class lifestyle, or anything approaching it.
 
That's a lot smarter than just hating taxes. Most conservatives hate taxes but ignore the other side of that equation. Surely you share in my frustration and notice that trend. Am I right?

vasuderatorrent
 
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Your Star said:
No it did not, it would have increased the debt ceiling, but not open up the government. Your information is wrong, try getting information that doesn't come from biased, unreliable sites like the on you posted in the OP.
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House Republicans told Obama at the White House that they could reopen the federal government by early next week if the president and Senate Democrats agree to their debt-ceiling proposal

That is not what they said, you are just not presenting the facts at all
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Harry Reid: “Why Would We Want To” Help One Child With Cancer By Only Funding NIH?

...On October 8, Obama was asked by Mark Knoller of CBS if he was “tempted” to sign the numerous funding bills passed by the GOP-controlled House that would greatly alleviate the pain of the shutdown. Republicans have voted to reopen parks, fund cancer trials for children at the NIH, and to keep FEMA and the FDA going through this partial shutdown. But Obama has threatened to veto any such efforts, effectively keeping the Senate from considering the legislation.

“Of course I’m tempted” to sign those bills, Obama explained. “But here’s the problem. What you’ve seen are bills that come up wherever Republicans are feeling political pressure, they put a bill forward. And if there’s no political heat, if there’s no television story on it, then nothing happens.”

Obama’s answer dragged on, as all of Obama’s answers do. But the point was made. For the first time in American history, a president confessed to deliberately hurting his country to score points against his enemies....​

Hey, after all, he's "winning", right? The more pain people are in - the worse off Republicans do. And sure, he loses some points - but politics is a zero sum game to him, and so as long as he's losing less than the R's, he's winning. So the last thing you want is to take the stories about folks suffering off the television.

They both want a clean CR that opens the government
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Exactly. They both only want 100% of what they want and have thus far refused to accept anything else than 100% of what they want.

what they are against, and rightfully so, is the republicans putting up piecemeal legislation funding the government instead of funding the government as a whole.
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The government has always been funded in that manner - it is the large, must-pass omnibus bills that are the historical oddity, not the bills which actually focus on the particular spending upon which we are about to engage.

And the reason to insist upon the destructive latter rather than the former is one of the same reasons why you don't want to reduce people's pain in the middle of the shutdown - because people might be surprised how much government they never miss, and if you had to actually justify some of this stuff on it's own merits, you'd have a real pickle on your hands.

That is just bad governance
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Actually it is the must-pass omnibus bills to which any congresscritter can add any piece of crap-ola that he or she likes that is bad governance. Funding the government by program is good governance, though admittedly it does require more work on the part of our "leadership", perish the thought.

and that was done for the sole purpose so they could put out those exact talking points you just parroted. It was a political maneuver and nothing more. They didn't give a **** about the kids with cancer or people trying to get into memorials; they just wanted to score political points.
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:shrug: you are free to accuse them of still secretly being meanies, but the fact remains that the only party actually still ****ing over kids with cancer or keeping WWII vets from their own memorial is the Democrats.

I am as well; we were supposed to move last weekend but can't until the shutdown is over. We are getting a home loan from the USDA and our paperwork was at the very last stage when the shutdown started and it completely screwed us. We've lost money and we'll likely lose more because we are having to stay in the house we are renting, the rent costs more than our mortgage for the new house will be, until the shutdown is over. Plus the house we are renting is falling apart and the house we are moving into is very nice and isn't filled with mold, has adequate room for all of our pets, doesn't let water leak all over the garage floor when it rains, and the plumbing doesn't leak and ruin the ceiling in the room where our dog sleeps.
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Yup. And if the GOP were to pass tomorrow the "Fund The USDA Home-Loan Program" bill in order to help people like you through the transition, Harry Reid and the President would either sit on or veto it. Because this is how they view the effects of the shut-down. They think it's a win-win for them; They demand 100% of everything and every day that Republicans don't give it to them, you get angrier and angrier... at Republicans. :) Why would they want to help you out? Having you in trouble is good politics for them.

This is why I want the damn GOP to stop acting like petulant children and compromise like adults.
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:roll: oh please. The GOP has come out with compromise offer after compromise offer after compromise offer, offering little and small and floating trial balloon after trial balloon. Meanwhile the President and the Democrats have not only not offered a single compromise, they have rejected the notion of compromise. When the President says "I will not negotiate", that's not a compromising position - that's an all-or-nothing position. Like it or not, the GOP is the one offering options to compromise here, and so far the Democrats are refusing to accept even that they should have to.
 
Oftencold said:
That is toned down.

I'm a history buff. I know all too well how quickly "normal life" can be obliterated in war, subjugation, and ruin. As a society, we've traded a willingness to face harsh realities with limited resources and the assurance that progress is bought with pain and suffering for childish illusions in which evil and want can be magically erased.

Need I list all the societies that thought themselves permanent, stable and secure and are dust now?
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Ozymandias%2B3.jpg


There was an interesting bit by Mark Levin a while back about how the emotional basis for much of conservatism was gratitude - gratitude for what we had been passed down, gratitude for what had carefully been built up for so long to get us where we are, and that the emotional basis for much of liberalism was anger - anger at what was still wrong, anger at perceived unfairness or injustice, and that much of the conflict between the two stemmed from the fact that, in their anger to tear at perceived injustice, liberals often tore at what conservatives were grateful for.

Civilization is fragile. It takes but one generation to wreck.
 
cpwill said:
Just in case any of you are wondering who is actually responsible for the continuing on-going Govt. shut down, it's the guy who was offered literally everything he wanted, but for a shorter time, with the request that he pretty-please be willing to negotiate in the meantime on something - anything, and still said no ; because he thinks that the longer more people are in pain, the better off he does politically.




There you have it. The next time anyone in the Administration complains about the shutdown or coming debt limit, remind them that they value it less than the opportunity to perhaps divide some of their political opposition.[/FONT][/COLOR]
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Why should Obama back down on anything when it's clear the Republicans are folding and willing to do pretty much anything he says he wants?
 
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