California's brown signs bill permitting non-physician abortions [W:307]

Re: Liberals war on women takes big advance

iguanaman said:

Actually the Supreme court has ruled that an abortion is womens RIGHT. Males are not included in the decision.

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1) That doesn't address what I wrote. Being that nothing I wrote suggested women didn't have a right to pursue an abortion

2) You have been using "a male thing" in the sense that the restrictions have been established by men and that women prefer no restrictions (the decision on a social level). a) I showed how women also favor restriction in certain contexts. b) Now you are trying to equivocate that with the decision on a personal level, within those social restrictions. And you inexplicably do this by citing a male dominated body that helps establish what type of social restrictions are allowed

your argument is a mess

Re: Liberals war on women takes big advance

AGENT J said:

wrong

California stopped interfering with the regulations the medical community already had in place by no longer adding additional ones, now they no longer get in the way.

California by itself has no power to overrule the FDA in a negative safety direction, they can ADD legislation but they cant subtract from the rules set forth by the medical community, their rules, protocols and regulations deemed this ok and now California is allowing it so California didnt "create" anything and yes it is for health in general. More access to more health.

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Wrong. They relaxed it to a lesser standard. It doesn't matter that that was an FDA standard, what matters is that it was a lesser standard.

Re: Liberals war on women takes big advance

mac said:

Wrong.
2.) They relaxed it to a lesser standard.
3.)It doesn't matter that that was an FDA standard
3.) what matters is that it was a lesser standard.

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1.) yes you are, we already covered that fact
2.) lesser by what FACTAUL medical/science standard? NONE
3.) yes, yes it does because they are one of the MEDICAL/SCIENCE authorities on these issues among others
4.) see #2 only your opinion which is meaningless to the topic

fact remains "California" didnt "create" anything new, your OP was and still is factually wrong
sorry this fact wont change

Re: Liberals war on women takes big advance

AGENT J said:

VERY GOOD thanks for quoting me and further proving yourself wrong, yes again read this slowly in the medical field this has been common for a very long time

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Again, the manner in which you write is rather incoherent. But you assert two things: that these "regulations and rules have been around a long time" and "are the same elsewhere".

The problem with this the regulation and rules were just changed in California, and only five other states have similar regulations and rules.

If you mean some type of guidelines from a administrative federal body then that is something different, and you should quote them. But your lack of clarity and basic ability to express your thoughts are not my problem

just like some of the gay rights law DOUBLE up on saying churches dont have to marry them, well thats in the constitution and is already a given

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I don't think you understand how the constitutional review process works: a law is constitutional until it is challenged in court and a verdict is rendered on it

also as far as your other stupid request its in here already, i posted it and someone else did to where it mentioned these this type of training is already in their scope.

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this is what the bill states: <<<***The bill would also require a nurse practitioner, certified nurse-midwife, or physician assistant to complete training, as specified***, and to comply with standardized procedures or protocols, as specified, in order to perform an abortion by aspiration techniques, and would indefinitely authorize a nurse
practitioner, certified nurse-midwife, or physician assistant who completed a specified training program and achieved clinical competency to continue to perform abortions by aspiration techniques.>>>

<<<(a) In order to perform an abortion by aspiration techniques pursuant to Section 2253, ***a person with a license or certificate to practice as a nurse practitioner or a certified nurse-midwife shall complete training recognized by the Board of Registered Nursing***. Beginning January 1, 2014, and until January 1, 2016, the competency-based training protocols established by Health Workforce Pilot Project (HWPP) No. 171 through the Office of Statewide Health Planning and Development shall be used.>>>

<<<(d) ***It is unprofessional conduct for any nurse practitioner or certified nurse-midwife to perform an abortion by aspiration techniques pursuant to Section 2253 without prior completion of training and validation of clinical competency***.>>>

<<<(a) In order to receive authority from his or her supervising physician and surgeon to perform an abortion by aspiration techniques pursuant to Section 2253,**** a physician assistant shall complete training either through training programs approved by the board pursuant to Section 3513 or by training to perform medical
services which augment his or her current areas of competency***>>>


<<<(d) ***It is unprofessional conduct for any physician assistant to perform an abortion by aspiration techniques pursuant to Section 2253 without prior completion of training and validation of clinical competency.***>>>

as usual, you so preoccupied with being a buffoon and asserting how you "pwned people, lulz, OMG, LMAO" that you don't even have any idea what you speak of, and any attempts to point this out to you are simply met with even more "LULZ, OMG, etc"

Re: Liberals war on women takes big advance

AGENT J said:

wrong

California stopped interfering with the regulations the medical community already had in place by no longer adding additional ones, now they no longer get in the way.

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The medical community doesn't establish "regulations". They can issue guidelines. But govt bodies establish regulations

Re: Liberals war on women takes big advance

Dr. Chuckles said:

1.)Again, the manner in which you write is rather incoherent. But you assert two things: that these "regulations and rules have been around a long time" and "are the same elsewhere".

The problem with this the regulation and rules were just changed in California, and only have other states have similar regulations and rules.

If you mean some type of guidelines from a administrative federal body then that is something different, and you should quote them. But your lack of clarity and basic ability to express your thoughts are not my problem




2.)I don't think you understand how the constitutional review process works: a law is constitutional until it is challenged in court and a verdict is rendered on it




this is what the bill states: <<<***The bill would also require a nurse practitioner, certified nurse-midwife, or physician assistant to complete training, as specified***, and to comply with standardized procedures or protocols, as specified, in order to perform an abortion by aspiration techniques, and would indefinitely authorize a nurse
practitioner, certified nurse-midwife, or physician assistant who completed a specified training program and achieved clinical competency to continue to perform abortions by aspiration techniques.>>>

<<<(a) In order to perform an abortion by aspiration techniques pursuant to Section 2253, a person with a license or certificate to practice as a nurse practitioner or a certified nurse-midwife shall complete training recognized by the Board of Registered Nursing. Beginning January 1, 2014, and until January 1, 2016, the competency-based training protocols established by Health Workforce Pilot Project (HWPP) No. 171 through the Office of Statewide Health Planning and Development shall be used.>>>

<<<(d) It is unprofessional conduct for any nurse practitioner or certified nurse-midwife to perform an abortion by aspiration techniques pursuant to Section 2253 without prior completion of training and validation of clinical competency.>>>

<<<(a) In order to receive authority from his or her supervising physician and surgeon to perform an abortion by aspiration techniques pursuant to Section 2253, a physician assistant shall complete training either through training programs approved by the board pursuant to Section 3513 or by training to perform medical
services which augment his or her current areas of competency>>>


<<<(d) It is unprofessional conduct for any physician assistant to perform an abortion by aspiration techniques pursuant to Section 2253 without prior completion of training and validation of clinical competency.>>>

as usual, you so preoccupied with being a buffoon and asserting how you "pwned people, lulz, OMG, LMAO" that you don't even have any idea what you speak of, and any attempts to point this out to you are simply met with even more "LULZ, OMG, etc"

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1.) your opinion is meaningless to the fact you were wrong, no biggie
2.) wow thats a failed deflection that has nothing to do with anything here
3.) thank you for re-posting what i and others already posted lol and showing it doubles down, and further proving me right, you lose again.Now instead of owning yourself do what i say so your posts fail less.
Read the whole thread and all your answers are there proving you wrong and showing you lose to facts. Or please continue your meltdowns and my entertainment of watching you fail. DO you even know what you are trying to argue anymore or in all your lies, misdirections, deflections, made up arguments and strawmen and fantasies did you lose track?
maybe take a deep breath and tell e what lie or made up argument are you trying to make anf failing at now?

facts defeat you again, as always thanks for playing, also PLEASE keep posting so i can keep destroying each of your posts.
You lied, your posts failed and you have been factually wrong.

Re: Liberals war on women takes big advance

Dr. Chuckles said:

You mean the example I cited to show his characterization of abortion restrictions, which the OP discusses, was false?

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nope. That's not what I meant at all.

Think about it.

Re: Liberals war on women takes big advance

Dr. Chuckles said:

The medical community doesn't establish "regulations". They can issue guidelines. But govt bodies establish regulations

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yes like the FDA which was being talked about if my whole post was qouted, thanks captain obvious

Re: Liberals war on women takes big advance

AGENT J said:

1.) yes you are, we already covered that fact
2.) lesser by what FACTAUL medical/science standard? NONE
3.) yes, yes it does because they are one of the MEDICAL/SCIENCE authorities on these issues among others
4.) see #2 only your opinion which is meaningless to the topic

fact remains "California" didnt "create" anything new, your OP was and still is factually wrong
sorry this fact wont change

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Factually, they made the standards less stringent....factually, that equates to lesser.
Factually, it wasn't my OP, factually you're wrong there too.

Re: Liberals war on women takes big advance

mac said:

1.)Factually, they made the standards less stringent....factually, that equates to lesser.
Factually, it wasn't my OP, factually you're wrong there too.

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1.) what "standards" made up by who and practiced where? this is why you are wrong
the standards are made by the FDA, those are the medical and scientific standards. removing the OLD law allows cali to use the medical and scientific standards
whats that mean? cali itself didnt create ANYTHING, the standards were already there

2.) nope not wrong i said your OP, op stands for original post and since i said yours that means post 199, i didnt say THE OP.
your op, post 199 is factual wrong, along with other posts of your now and this fact will not change

Re: Liberals war on women takes big advance

AGENT J said:

1.) what "standards" made up by who and practiced where? this is why you are wrong
the standards are made by the FDA, those are the medical and scientific standards. removing the OLD law allows cali to use the medical and scientific standards
whats that mean? cali itself didnt create ANYTHING, the standards were already there

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The standards are set by the state. Whether an abortion has to be performed in a surgically certified facility or in a gas station is up to the state. Whether it must be performed by a Medical Doctor or a licensed Nurse is up to the state. These are the standards that were lessened in California. This is where you are wrong.

2.) nope not wrong i said your OP, op stands for original post and since i said yours that means post 199, i didnt say THE OP.
your op, post 199 is factual wrong, along with other posts of your now and this fact will not change

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It wasn't my original post. You are factually wrong.

Re: Liberals war on women takes big advance

AGENT J said:

yes like the FDA which was being talked about if my whole post was qouted, thanks captain obvious

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the FDA doesn't establish regulations in the area though. That is clearly the function of state law

Re: Liberals war on women takes big advance

AGENT J said:

facts defeat you again, as always thanks for playing, also PLEASE keep posting so i can keep destroying each of your posts.
You lied, your posts failed and you have been factually wrong.

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above you claimed "also as far as your other stupid request its in here already, i posted it and someone else did to where it mentioned these this type of training is already in their scope."

if it was already "within their scope" they would not need additional certification and training, as is clearly outlined within the bill

Re: Liberals war on women takes big advance

mac said:

1.)The standards are set by the state.
2.)Whether an abortion has to be performed in a surgically certified facility or in a gas station is up to the state.
3.) Whether it must be performed by a Medical Doctor or a licensed Nurse is up to the state.
4.) These are the standards that were lessened in California. This is where you are wrong.
5.) It wasn't my original post. You are factually wrong.

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1.) 100% false they can only set additional standards but they can not trump the FDA in the wrong direction. FOr example FDA determines BC cause death, Cali doesnt just get to sell it on store shelves nets to bubble gum.
2.) also false see above especial when talking first trimester and if its only done with a pill
3.) also false, see above
4.) nope see above again.

please tell me why the bill simple mentions and the articles and the verbiage of the legislators talking about the how this bill allows Cali to use standards already in place then?
5.) yes it was for our conversation lol it was factually your original post i addressed for this conversation

lets reflect on the facts..
Post 199 is 100% factually wrong, this isnt going to change but please keep up the deflections they entertain me

Re: Liberals war on women takes big advance

Dr. Chuckles said:

the FDA doesn't establish regulations in the area though. That is clearly the function of state law

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are you telling me if the FDA deems a drug unsafe tomorrow and kills people the state can just sell it on store shelves next to bubble gum if it chooses and nothing happens?

Re: Liberals war on women takes big advance

Dr. Chuckles said:

above you claimed "also as far as your other stupid request its in here already, i posted it and someone else did to where it mentioned these this type of training is already in their scope."

if it was already "within their scope" they would not need additional certification and training, as is clearly outlined within the bill

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yes this is true but like government they do stupid things to double down anyway, this is common and means nothing to the facts or discussion.

Just like the gay marriage example already given, its waste of time stuff for paranoid mentally retarded conspiracy nuts.

Re: Liberals war on women takes big advance

AGENT J said:

1.) 100% false they can only set additional standards but they can not trump the FDA in the wrong direction. FOr example FDA determines BC cause death, Cali doesnt just get to sell it on store shelves nets to bubble gum.

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Yes, the FDA regulates drugs, not medical care. We are talking about medical care that involves drugs. Different animals

Re: Liberals war on women takes big advance

AGENT J said:

are you telling me if the FDA deems a drug unsafe tomorrow and kills people the state can just sell it on store shelves next to bubble gum if it chooses and nothing happens?

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We are not discussing the approval and regulation oif drugs in general. We are discussing the use of drugs *within* medical care. There is an important distinction there that you will likely be incapable of grasping

Re: Liberals war on women takes big advance

AGENT J said:

1.) 100% false they can only set additional standards but they can not trump the FDA in the wrong direction. FOr example FDA determines BC cause death, Cali doesnt just get to sell it on store shelves nets to bubble gum.
2.) also false see above especial when talking first trimester and if its only done with a pill
3.) also false, see above
4.) nope see above again.

please tell me why the bill simple mentions and the articles and the verbiage of the legislators talking about the how this bill allows Cali to use standards already in place then?
5.) yes it was for our conversation lol it was factually your original post i addressed for this conversation

lets reflect on the facts..
Post 199 is 100% factually wrong, this isnt going to change but please keep up the deflections they entertain me

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You really are very confused as to the FDA's role, here. Very.

Re: Liberals war on women takes big advance

Dr. Chuckles said:

We are not discussing the approval and regulation oif drugs in general. We are discussing the use of drugs *within* medical care. There is an important distinction there that you will likely be incapable of grasping

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Very likely.

Re: Liberals war on women takes big advance

AGENT J said:

yes this is true

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Sio despite your numerous assertions to the contrary you were wrong

but like government they do stupid things to double down anyway, this is common and means nothing to the facts or discussion.

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Then show us this was already within the scope of their training, by citing an academic or vocational training program, for general nursing, etc, like I originally asked. Because, otherwise, you are only asserting something, without supporting evidence.

Just like the gay marriage example already given, its waste of time stuff for paranoid mentally retarded conspiracy nuts.

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or, like above, you could just be wrong, despite your vehement assertions to the contrary.

Re: Liberals war on women takes big advance

mac said:

You really are very confused as to the FDA's role, here. Very.

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you are welcome to that opinion but its meanignless

Re: Liberals war on women takes big advance

Dr. Chuckles said:

We are not discussing the approval and regulation oif drugs in general. We are discussing the use of drugs *within* medical care. There is an important distinction there that you will likely be incapable of grasping

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actually we are and i have been, it was APPROVED to use a certain way, the state put EXTRA on top of that
nothing to graps since its a failed deflection that doesnt change anything i said, thanks
good move totally bailing out and trying a reframe though

Re: Liberals war on women takes big advance

Dr. Chuckles said:

Yes, the FDA regulates drugs, not medical care. We are talking about medical care that involves drugs. Different animals

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yes and they regulat how that drug can be given CARE wise
no different at all

if the FDA deems it a certain class where it needs an dim just amkign somethign up here for an example used under supervision then the state cant go past that but they could add to it

Re: Liberals war on women takes big advance

mac said:

You really are very confused as to the FDA's role, here. Very.

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post 199 is still factually wrong, nothing has changed