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Priests Risk Arrest for Offering Sacraments to Catholic Troops During Shutdown[W:181]

Re: Priests Risk Arrest for Offering Sacraments to Catholic Troops During Shutdown

VanceMack said:
Contract positions are not a 'hire' position. Contracts processes are worked and awarded 3-6 months in advance and funds are already allocated and in place. Exempted furlough positions (both fed employee and contractor) and assets have been in place throughout. And the use of executive order involves Executive Branch enforcement and actions, not legislative.
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Please read up on the relevant law: Antideficiency Act - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
Re: Priests Risk Arrest for Offering Sacraments to Catholic Troops During Shutdown

roguenuke said:
Not all contracted positions work the same way. It depends on the terms of the contract.

Do Catholic Priests in the Military ‘Risk Being Arrested’ if They Minister and Hold Mass During the Gov’t Shutdown? | TheBlaze.com

For instance, Quantico's contracted priests can still give services but other contracts are not like their, apparently.
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Al this does is blow the argument that they 'cant' perform work completely out of the water.
 
Re: Priests Risk Arrest for Offering Sacraments to Catholic Troops During Shutdown

VanceMack said:
Wonderful. Now explain how (just as Rogue posted) other contract positions ARE IN FACT in place and operational.
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Because congress has over the years made certain exemptions. They can do it, the president cannot.
 
Re: Priests Risk Arrest for Offering Sacraments to Catholic Troops During Shutdown

roguenuke said:
The Pentagon is not well-funded during a shutdown. It is funded to only the essentials right now, or did you miss that part of the last few weeks? Obama cannot fund anything else. Congress funds these things, not the President.

Would it be okay if Obama decided to sign an executive order to make Congress pay for Medicaid or welfare while the shutdown is happening, claiming that families are depending on these things and it could put these families in debt, some of which are servicemembers (at least for the welfare)?
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Obama is Commander in Chief. Do you understand this is a responsibility beyond your EBT card? 85% of the Government is still up and running. Obama is hiring private security guards with guns to keep people out of Independence Hall. He;s hiring thugs to wire shut war memorials.

They were warned days before the shut down even took place that this would happen

Obama and Hagel did nothing. Only after it looked bad, did Obama all of the sudden pretend to be outraged and demand something be done. You're going to tell me that as Commander in Chief, Obama only found out the families of these KIA hadn't gotten their benefits yet today? Their sons and daughters were killed in the war Obama is running.

We get it though. Obama is endlessly campaigning. A great honest guy. Knows nothing. Should always get what he wants. yadda yadda yadda
 
Re: Priests Risk Arrest for Offering Sacraments to Catholic Troops During Shutdown

Moderator's Warning:
It's getting heated in here. The personal comments and baiting needs to stop now. Stick to the topic, which is not each other or discussions of who is or is not a founder.
 
Re: Priests Risk Arrest for Offering Sacraments to Catholic Troops During Shutdown

Redress said:
Because congress has over the years made certain exemptions. They can do it, the president cannot.
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Sigh...is it your position that the reason the CONTRACTED PRIESTS were denied access to the building was because they did NOT have a contract? Surely all you have to do is present some sort of evidence to that fact. Thats absolutely NOT in evidence based on the very short article listed in the OP. FACT...MULTIPLE Contracts and contractors are in place right now...today...and have in fact reported every day since the 'furlough' began. No continuing res, no advance permission from congress...that whole line of argument is just BS. The parks werent shut down because of contracts. Nowhere in that article are you going to find ANYTHING that shows thats why the chapel doors were barred. Other chapel services kept right on ticking. The funding issue and contract issue is simply smoke.
"The chapel doors were locked and the sign said, “Shutdown: No Catholic service till further notice.”

thats all you have.
 
Re: Priests Risk Arrest for Offering Sacraments to Catholic Troops During Shutdown

roguenuke said:
Which means you wait until you get off duty. Sailors only have duty one day (unless they have weekend duty for some commands, but they would then have it Sat and Sun, which means Mon they would be free to go to religious services offbase). There are plenty of watches that onduty personnel cannot leave the ship for and they are 24 hour watches. (On my ship, on duty meant we weren't supposed to leave the ship without permission that was conservatively given anyway, even just going on base, no matter which watches we had.) This would mean plenty of sailors wouldn't be able to go to those religious services, no matter where they are. If there is a policy though that members could leave the ship for religious services (not required as a policy though), I'm willing to bet that they would make exceptions for leaving the base though, within reason, for those members to attend civilian services.
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Sunday, SUNDAY is a Holy Day of Obligation for Catholics. So, it doesn't matter what they where able to do on Monday. Priests per canon law are suppose to only preform Mass once a day, exceptions are made for certain parishes which allow no more than having Mass twice in one day by the same Priest. I don't think the Navy has gotten that much more kinder and gentler that it's going o allow their entire Duty roster to leave base.

But this is now all leading into speculation and there is no need in arguing on that. The bottom line is that it was within the bounds of Obama's power to allow Mass to be said voluntarily, and he didn't allow it.


The law exists and they cannot perform those functions onbase as official clergy even voluntarily. It goes into liability.
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As the article I provided(which was footnoted) stated that only is if the possibility of future claims of compensation were present which in this case, wouldn't be a factor.
 
Re: Priests Risk Arrest for Offering Sacraments to Catholic Troops During Shutdown

VanceMack said:
Sigh...is it your position that the reason the CONTRACTED PRIESTS were denied access to the building was because they did NOT have a contract? Surely all you have to do is present some sort of evidence to that fact. Thats absolutely NOT in evidence based on the very short article listed in the OP. FACT...MULTIPLE Contracts and contractors are in place right now...today...and have in fact reported every day since the 'furlough' began. No continuing res, no advance permission from congress...that whole line of argument is just BS. The parks werent shut down because of contracts. Nowhere in that article are you going to find ANYTHING that shows thats why the chapel doors were barred. Other chapel services kept right on ticking. The funding issue and contract issue is simply smoke.
"The chapel doors were locked and the sign said, “Shutdown: No Catholic service till further notice.”

thats all you have.
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And we see the problem. Read some of the links in this thread not in the OP. I recommend in particular the link to snopes on page 5.
 
Re: Priests Risk Arrest for Offering Sacraments to Catholic Troops During Shutdown

tererun said:
Yeah, it is called making people feel the pain of the shutdown the republicans have forced upon us. I am perfectly fine with that. It should be painful. You should not use the budget to try and remove things you cannot remove otherwise. They cannot get Obamacare voted out and it is not OK to attach it to strip it from everything else. We fund the programs we pass and that is it. If the republicans do not like it they can try to repeal obamacare through the proper channels. Yes, I am perfectly fine with you being bothered because you do not get your perks while you pitch your fit. I totally agree with Obama making it hard on the crying baby republicans in the house. They need a good time out. Let them cry it out.
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So you're fine with a tyrant as long as he's your tyrant, got it! :thumbs: No further conversation with you is necessary. To you I say good day!
 
Re: Priests Risk Arrest for Offering Sacraments to Catholic Troops During Shutdown

Redress said:
And we see the problem. Read some of the links in this thread not in the OP. I recommend in particular the link to snopes on page 5.
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1-Snopes, while being a wonderful resource, is written and maintained by PEOPLE...people who interpret things. 2-Rogue posted a link showing that in fact contract priests ARE STILL WORKING, shockingly in spite of the ADA which you are continuing to hang your hat on. 3-NUMEROUS contract positions are similarly actively and gainfully employed, despite your argument re the ADA, as are NUMEROUS federal employees deemed exempt.

"A number of factors affect whether private-sector workers remain on the job during a shutdown, including whether they support “essential” government functions and whether their duties are funded through past appropriations or scheduled for payment with future funding bills."

Mind you...STILL not relevant as there is ZERO indication that the priest was barred because his contract was not funded.
 
Re: Priests Risk Arrest for Offering Sacraments to Catholic Troops During Shutdown

Redress said:
You did not read your source well. Exceptions can be made...by congress. The president does not have that authority. So again, you are complaining that the president is following the law.
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It is the executive branch (through the AG and/or the Comptroller General (who is appointed by the President)) which determines if those exceptions are allowed...

I read my source fine thanks.

*Just to cut you off at the pass, yes the Comptroller General is in the Legislative Branch. (but as an appointee of the President it is a reasonable expectation that the Executive Branch influence would hold sway regarding policy such as this, as it is within its scope to permit such exemptions which obviously meet the criteria but weren't given. Politics at play)
 
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Re: Priests Risk Arrest for Offering Sacraments to Catholic Troops During Shutdown

• Army Community Service programs to include Army Emergency Relief, Family Advocacy Victim Advocates and SHARP will be open.
• Contractors will continue the processing of identification cards and DEERS enrollment at the Directorate of Human Resources.
• Initial military training will continue, however professional military education will not.
• All firefighters, Department of the Army police and guards have been exempted from the furlough and will continue to report for duty.
• The Raymond W. Bliss Army Health Center will continue full services during the shutdown. No appointments will be canceled and the appointment line will remain open. The pharmacy will remain open during normal operating hours.
• The Fort Huachuca Accommodation School District will remain fully operational during the shutdown.
just the first sampling typed in to Google. And Ft Huachuca is a SMALL installation....
 
Re: Priests Risk Arrest for Offering Sacraments to Catholic Troops During Shutdown

Simon W. Moon said:
American Battle Monuments Commission
:shrug:
A direct quote from Bronson.
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Closed WWII memorial funded 'almost entirely by private contributions' - Washington Times

But according to its website, the memorial “was funded almost entirely by private contributions, as specified in Public Law 103-32. The campaign received more than $197 million in cash and pledges. Support came from hundreds of thousands of individual Americans, hundreds of corporations and foundations, veterans groups, dozens of civic, fraternal and professional organizations, states and one territory, and students in 1,200 schools across the country.
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Obama had the money to hire thugs to wire that memorial shut but not pay military families

So tell everyone why we should let Obama control our HC after the way he's treated the family members of those military KIA

Why should Obama and his cronies be able to exempt themselves and their hand picked corporations from Obamacare is it's such a wonderful law? The thuggery and corruption on display is breathtaking
 
Re: Priests Risk Arrest for Offering Sacraments to Catholic Troops During Shutdown

Bronson said:
Closed WWII memorial funded 'almost entirely by private contributions' - Washington Times



Obama had the money to hire thugs to wire that memorial shut but not pay military families

So tell everyone why we should let Obama control our HC after the way he's treated the family members of those military KIA

Why should Obama and his cronies be able to exempt themselves and their hand picked corporations from Obamacare is it's such a wonderful law? The thuggery and corruption on display is breathtaking
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Congress knew about it also ahead of time.

At least be honest about it.
 
Re: Priests Risk Arrest for Offering Sacraments to Catholic Troops During Shutdown

ChezC3 said:
Sunday, SUNDAY is a Holy Day of Obligation for Catholics. So, it doesn't matter what they where able to do on Monday. Priests per canon law are suppose to only preform Mass once a day, exceptions are made for certain parishes which allow no more than having Mass twice in one day by the same Priest. I don't think the Navy has gotten that much more kinder and gentler that it's going o allow their entire Duty roster to leave base.

But this is now all leading into speculation and there is no need in arguing on that. The bottom line is that it was within the bounds of Obama's power to allow Mass to be said voluntarily, and he didn't allow it.

As the article I provided(which was footnoted) stated that only is if the possibility of future claims of compensation were present which in this case, wouldn't be a factor.
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By volunteering for the military, people have promised that their religious "obligations" will take second to their jobs. If that means that they cannot get off base on Sunday for whatever reason, then they will have to just deal with that. It would be no difference than them being on duty and there simply not being a way for them to get off duty to make it to Mass on Sunday.

I knew a guy who was Buddhist in the Navy and he was struggling with the fact that his own religion would have him finding inner peace in the mountains or somewhere more peaceful than the bowels of a ship. Many people sacrifice religious "obligations" for military service.
 
Re: Priests Risk Arrest for Offering Sacraments to Catholic Troops During Shutdown

VanceMack said:
Al this does is blow the argument that they 'cant' perform work completely out of the water.
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No. It says that some contractors have different contracts. If their contract says that they are paid at different times by the government, then they cannot perform their work by law. If their employer has already been paid by the contract and they are simply being paid by their employer from that money now, then there is no conflict. It all depends on the terms of their contract.
 
Re: Priests Risk Arrest for Offering Sacraments to Catholic Troops During Shutdown

Bronson said:
Obama is Commander in Chief. Do you understand this is a responsibility beyond your EBT card? 85% of the Government is still up and running. Obama is hiring private security guards with guns to keep people out of Independence Hall. He;s hiring thugs to wire shut war memorials.

They were warned days before the shut down even took place that this would happen

Obama and Hagel did nothing. Only after it looked bad, did Obama all of the sudden pretend to be outraged and demand something be done. You're going to tell me that as Commander in Chief, Obama only found out the families of these KIA hadn't gotten their benefits yet today? Their sons and daughters were killed in the war Obama is running.

We get it though. Obama is endlessly campaigning. A great honest guy. Knows nothing. Should always get what he wants. yadda yadda yadda
Click to expand...

Seriously? Did you just try to accuse me of being on welfare simply because I mentioned it?

You pay for my housing and you pay for part of my grocery bill and you pay both me and my husband and for a majority of our insurance, medical, dental, and even life insurance because I am both a military spouse and a Navy reservist.

I asked a question that you didn't answer, instead trying to accuse the President of things. I asked specifically, would it be okay if the President signed an executive order to fund welfare recipients because he felt they were in danger of being put in a worse financial situation for a long time? That would be a priority to many, just as paying a death benefit is a priority to others. Who are you to say that the dead are more important than the living, who are trying to take care of their children?
 
Re: Priests Risk Arrest for Offering Sacraments to Catholic Troops During Shutdown

roguenuke said:
No. It says that some contractors have different contracts. If their contract says that they are paid at different times by the government, then they cannot perform their work by law. If their employer has already been paid by the contract and they are simply being paid by their employer from that money now, then there is no conflict. It all depends on the terms of their contract.
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Actually it does unless you have some sort of info that says their contract was the reason they were denied access. And of course, we know contracts had precisely squat to do with monument and park closures and we also saw just how readily the Administration bailed on its park closure stance when it involved an illegal immigration rally. Just as we know that across the government contract employees are still just as much 'on the job' as they were before the furlough started.

The Administration is filled with childish and petty individuals. Their response is the worst kind of petulant childlike behavior. They shut ROADS down in the middle of nowhere. They deployed armed police and park rangers to tell people they couldnt drive down roads or stop and take pictures. And they locked up a chapel on an otherwise open military installation. Of course...to their true believers, they can do no wrong and there will always be some twisted excuse or justification.
 
Re: Priests Risk Arrest for Offering Sacraments to Catholic Troops During Shutdown

VanceMack said:
1-Snopes, while being a wonderful resource, is written and maintained by PEOPLE...people who interpret things. 2-Rogue posted a link showing that in fact contract priests ARE STILL WORKING, shockingly in spite of the ADA which you are continuing to hang your hat on. 3-NUMEROUS contract positions are similarly actively and gainfully employed, despite your argument re the ADA, as are NUMEROUS federal employees deemed exempt.

"A number of factors affect whether private-sector workers remain on the job during a shutdown, including whether they support “essential” government functions and whether their duties are funded through past appropriations or scheduled for payment with future funding bills."

Mind you...STILL not relevant as there is ZERO indication that the priest was barred because his contract was not funded.
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And what you all still fail to realize is that it would then place the blame either way on individual commands, not Obama. Either the bases like Quantico are wrong and should not be allowing theirs to work, or the law is written in a way that allows some contract workers to work only if they have a certain type of contract. It is still wrong to blame such things on Obama. The law is there. The technicalities of the law are unknown to us, apparently, but it isn't that hard to figure out that this is more complicated than just Obama telling priests that they can't do their "jobs" on bases.
 
Re: Priests Risk Arrest for Offering Sacraments to Catholic Troops During Shutdown

VanceMack said:
Actually it does unless you have some sort of info that says their contract was the reason they were denied access. And of course, we know contracts had precisely squat to do with monument and park closures and we also saw just how readily the Administration bailed on its park closure stance when it involved an illegal immigration rally. Just as we know that across the government contract employees are still just as much 'on the job' as they were before the furlough started.

The Administration is filled with childish and petty individuals. Their response is the worst kind of petulant childlike behavior. They shut ROADS down in the middle of nowhere. They deployed armed police and park rangers to tell people they couldnt drive down roads or stop and take pictures. And they locked up a chapel on an otherwise open military installation. Of course...to their true believers, they can do no wrong and there will always be some twisted excuse or justification.
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I showed you it. It is actually more likely that the contract with Quantico is the one that has a special provision to overcome the law, rather than the others having a contract that goes with the law.

Whether you want to understand it or not, they cannot allow people to congest roads outside a park that has to be closed because people are determined to see the sight despite the shutdown. They cannot allow people in parks that have to be closed, on government property that is maintained by federal funds, no matter whether people don't understand that or not. There was no military chaplains to operate the chapel so yes, it had to be closed. It sucks but it is politics and it is petty to blame this on Obama, especially placing all the blame on him.
 
Re: Priests Risk Arrest for Offering Sacraments to Catholic Troops During Shutdown

roguenuke said:
And what you all still fail to realize is that it would then place the blame either way on individual commands, not Obama. Either the bases like Quantico are wrong and should not be allowing theirs to work, or the law is written in a way that allows some contract workers to work only if they have a certain type of contract. It is still wrong to blame such things on Obama. The law is there. The technicalities of the law are unknown to us, apparently, but it isn't that hard to figure out that this is more complicated than just Obama telling priests that they can't do their "jobs" on bases.
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Its not just Quantico that has contract personnel still and always on board and doing their job...its bases and posts around the globe. There was absolutely NO need to block the Chapel access, just as there has been no need to deploy a small army of personnel to lock down open air monuments and park access roads. The contract argument was just a grasp at an argument to justify the actions of the Administration. ANY justification, regardless of how petty and childish they are behaving.
 
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Re: Priests Risk Arrest for Offering Sacraments to Catholic Troops During Shutdown

roguenuke said:
Seriously? Did you just try to accuse me of being on welfare simply because I mentioned it?

You pay for my housing and you pay for part of my grocery bill and you pay both me and my husband and for a majority of our insurance, medical, dental, and even life insurance because I am both a military spouse and a Navy reservist.

I asked a question that you didn't answer, instead trying to accuse the President of things. I asked specifically, would it be okay if the President signed an executive order to fund welfare recipients because he felt they were in danger of being put in a worse financial situation for a long time? That would be a priority to many, just as paying a death benefit is a priority to others. Who are you to say that the dead are more important than the living, who are trying to take care of their children?
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Your question is a false premise

1) Obama will have doubled the debt by the end of his Presidency (if he doesn't seek lifetime presidency anyways)

2) His job as Commander in Chief is to make absolutely sure that soldiers who die in the line of duty on the field of battle are honored. That their family members are taken care of. Comparing that to Obamacare and EBT cards is a disgrace

Which welfare recipients? The millions who are scamming the Disability Program? The Unemployed on 99 weeks of xbox and pot leave? The EBT cards? The 50 million + dependent upon Food Stamps? Those people are getting paid right now while the families of soldiers are having to rely on private donations to attend the funeral of their slain loved ones.

Obama has known about this issue for days and did nothing. There were appropriations bills that even tried to address this, but Obama's Pentagon interpreted the Law their way. As of right now, Obama and Reid CONTINUE to block all resolution that would address this issue.
 
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