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Priests Risk Arrest for Offering Sacraments to Catholic Troops During Shutdown[W:181]

Re: Priests Risk Arrest for Offering Sacraments to Catholic Troops During Shutdown

Hatuey said:
Bronson, you keep diverting from the statements you made. You said Obama keeps his golf course opened. I asked you how it's funded and you've yet to answer.

Can you answer that question for us?

How is the St. Andrews AFB Golf Course funded?
Click to expand...

Is the golf course on Federal Land?

Yes or No
 
Re: Priests Risk Arrest for Offering Sacraments to Catholic Troops During Shutdown

Mason66 said:
Sincé when is the leader of the countryr not responsable for what happens inhis country?

Obama does have a say in what happens. The Parks Department work for him, he is their boss.
Click to expand...

The laws that govern certain things about this situation prevent Obama from doing things though that require money, since Congress funds such things, not the President. He cannot allow our parks to get destroyed or people to get hurt in the parks because they are not being funded properly to ensure that people won't be hurt. It may seem to be so easy, but it isn't. Congress holds the main blame here, all of Congress, not the President.
 
Re: Priests Risk Arrest for Offering Sacraments to Catholic Troops During Shutdown

Bronson said:
Is the golf course on Federal Land?

Yes or No
Click to expand...

There is a difference in federal land that is already going to be open and federal land that has to shutdown during a government shutdown. Military bases, open during a government shutdown, other federal land, not open during a government shutdown.
 
Re: Priests Risk Arrest for Offering Sacraments to Catholic Troops During Shutdown

Hatuey said:
Thomas Jefferson was a Founding Father. Are you denying history?
Click to expand...

Jefferson didn't sign The Constitution

He wasn't even in the country at the time it was debated, drafted and signed
 
Re: Priests Risk Arrest for Offering Sacraments to Catholic Troops During Shutdown

roguenuke said:
There is a difference in federal land that is already going to be open and federal land that has to shutdown during a government shutdown. Military bases, open during a government shutdown, other federal land, not open during a government shutdown.
Click to expand...

So instead of wiring shut the golf course, Obama sends in thugs and cronies to wire shut the WW2 and Vietnam War Memorials

Got it

Oh and he kicked old people out of their homes and blocked people from even seeing Mount Rushmore from the highway
 
Re: Priests Risk Arrest for Offering Sacraments to Catholic Troops During Shutdown

Bronson said:
Jefferson didn't sign The Constitution

He wasn't even in the country at the time it was debated, drafted and signed
Click to expand...

So you're redefining "Founding Father?" Move the goalposts much?

Not surprised...
 
Re: Priests Risk Arrest for Offering Sacraments to Catholic Troops During Shutdown

Bronson said:
Jefferson didn't sign The Constitution

Like I said. You don't know History.

Par for the course :lol:

"Separation of Church and State" was injected by Hugo Black. A KKK racist Democrat
Click to expand...

Not only are you trying to deny that Jefferson is a founding father, but you also want to change history about what he said?

Founding Fathers - Top Ten Founding Fathers

He's listed as 3rd one down.

Learn About the United States (U.S.) Founding Fathers & More | Constitution Facts

The only reason Jefferson didn't sign the Constitution was because he was in France on a diplomatic mission.

And yes, he did say that there should be a wall between church and state. And he questioned the majority of the Bible, including going so far as to write his own, removing much of the "miracles" within it, including those pertaining to Jesus.

Jefferson's Wall of Separation Letter - The U.S. Constitution Online - USConstitution.net

But we ensured that the separation would be made within state governments as well anyway with the passage of the 14th Amendment. This ensured that people were not treated as "lesser" citizens for their religious beliefs or lack thereof.
 
Re: Priests Risk Arrest for Offering Sacraments to Catholic Troops During Shutdown

rocket88 said:
So you're redefining "Founding Father?" Move the goalposts much?

Not surprised...
Click to expand...

Jefferson wasn't even in the country at the time The Constitution was debated and drafted. The fact that every time this discussion is brought up, the only person Obots want to focus on is Jefferson.

How about the men who actually debated, drafted and SIGNED the document? Don't their beliefs matter to? They certainly wrote letters like Jefferson did, but somehow the only relevant "letter" is Jefferson's separation clause. A letter from a man who wasn't even there when the Constitution was created.

Look this issue is not debatable. 1776 was a different time. There weren't any prog/Obots around back then Thank God
 
Re: Priests Risk Arrest for Offering Sacraments to Catholic Troops During Shutdown

Bronson said:
So instead of wiring shut the golf course, Obama sends in thugs and cronies to wire shut the WW2 and Vietnam War Memorials

Got it

Oh and he kicked old people out of their homes and blocked people from even seeing Mount Rushmore from the highway
Click to expand...

Again, the gulf course is on open military installations and pays for itself, either by its own profits or MWR funds, which are not government provided. The people who take care of the Memorials are paid with taxpayer funds.

The government shutdown did all those things, not Obama. And that is if they actually happened as being reported rather than people using such things to attack Obama. The "blocking of the highway" was not as reported. They weren't trying to block everything, but rather funnel people through without tying up traffic or causing problems. And those "homes" were vacation homes, not their actual places of residence.

Shutdown forces owners to leave Lake Mead homes | Las Vegas Review-Journal

Although Vanover couldn’t put an exact number on how many residents were actually living in their vacation homes at the time of the government’s closure, she wanted to make one thing clear: “They are all vacation homes and everybody who lives in them are considered visitors,” she said. “If anybody needs to gather their personal belongings, we’re not going to deny them access. They can go do that. They just can’t spend the nights there or have barbecues during the day.
Click to expand...
 
Re: Priests Risk Arrest for Offering Sacraments to Catholic Troops During Shutdown

Bronson said:
Jefferson wasn't even in the country at the time The Constitution was debated and drafted. The fact that every time this discussion is brought up, the only person Obots want to focus on is Jefferson.

How about the men who actually debated, drafted and SIGNED the document? Don't their beliefs matter to? They certainly wrote letters like Jefferson did, but somehow the only relevant "letter" is Jefferson's separation clause. A letter from a man who wasn't even there when the Constitution was created.

Look this issue is not debatable. 1776 was a different time. There weren't any prog/Obots around back then Thank God
Click to expand...

So your position is that Thomas Jefferson was not a Founding Father? You said "Every Founding Father." Keep trying to back out by blaming it on "Obots," but you've been proven to be wrong. Again.
 
Re: Priests Risk Arrest for Offering Sacraments to Catholic Troops During Shutdown

rocket88 said:
So your position is that Thomas Jefferson was not a Founding Father? You said "Every Founding Father." Keep trying to back out by blaming it on "Obots," but you've been proven to be wrong. Again.
Click to expand...

Quote me where I said Jefferson "wasn't a Founder"

Where was Jefferson when The Constitution was debated, drafted and signed? You know the answer?
 
Re: Priests Risk Arrest for Offering Sacraments to Catholic Troops During Shutdown

Bronson said:
Quote me where I said Jefferson "wasn't a Founder"

Where was Jefferson when The Constitution was debated, drafted and signed? You know the answer?
Click to expand...

Doesn't matter, you're telling us all of them wanted a religious government. Point out one that didn't, and you moved the goalposts. You said:

Bronson said:
There were 55 Founders.
Click to expand...

You didn't say "people who signed the Constitution." Jefferson was a founder, and he disagrees with you. Therefore, you are wrong in assuming that they all wanted a religious government.
 
Re: Priests Risk Arrest for Offering Sacraments to Catholic Troops During Shutdown

roguenuke said:
Again, the gulf course is on open military installations and pays for itself, either by its own profits or MWR funds, which are not government provided. The people who take care of the Memorials are paid with taxpayer funds.

The government shutdown did all those things, not Obama. And that is if they actually happened as being reported rather than people using such things to attack Obama. The "blocking of the highway" was not as reported. They weren't trying to block everything, but rather funnel people through without tying up traffic or causing problems. And those "homes" were vacation homes, not their actual places of residence.

Shutdown forces owners to leave Lake Mead homes | Las Vegas Review-Journal
Click to expand...

You're just bleeting the talking points

Obama has even hired private security goons to block Independence Hall

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N078jMaPA5M

Obama actually used more resources to shut down the WW2 memorials that would ever be used to keep them open. They are open parks. Obama has even shut down the grand canyon. It just amazes me that disgusting filthy people continue to defend this Fascism and abuse of power. Why do are defending such corruption? That's the real question.

Fortunately people are seeing through this pattern of Obama abusing his power like a fascist dictator. From NSA spying to IRS target and harassment. This is just another example of many.

You should be asking yourself why your Messiah would deny the families of military KIA their benefits too
 
Re: Priests Risk Arrest for Offering Sacraments to Catholic Troops During Shutdown

rocket88 said:
Doesn't matter, you're telling us all of them wanted a religious government. Point out one that didn't, and you moved the goalposts. You said:
Click to expand...

I didn't say "religious Government" and yes it matters

You live and die in your strawmen. Par for the course.

You didn't say "people who signed the Constitution." Jefferson was a founder, and he disagrees with you. Therefore, you are wrong in assuming that they all wanted a religious government.
Click to expand...

Where was Jefferson when the Constitution and the Bill of Rights were debated, drafted and signed?
 
Re: Priests Risk Arrest for Offering Sacraments to Catholic Troops During Shutdown

Bronson said:
Jefferson didn't sign The Constitution

He wasn't even in the country at the time it was debated, drafted and signed
Click to expand...

Lol, are you denying Thomas Jefferson was a Founding Father? A Founding Father who clearly opposed the union of church & state? A Founding Father who through his work blows you claim on "all of them" opposing separation of church & state out of the water?
 
Re: Priests Risk Arrest for Offering Sacraments to Catholic Troops During Shutdown

Bronson said:
I didn't say "religious Government" and yes it matters
Click to expand...

You're right. You said the founding fathers would have disagreed with Rogue's claim: religion and government should be kept separate.

You assertion that they would have all disagreed is proven false by Jefferson's words. Whether you like it or not, he's a founding father.
 
Re: Priests Risk Arrest for Offering Sacraments to Catholic Troops During Shutdown

Hatuey said:
Lol, are you denying Thomas Jefferson was a Founding Father? A Founding Father who clearly opposed the union of church & state? A Founding Father who through his work blows you claim on "all of them" opposing separation of church & state out of the water?
Click to expand...

Are you denying Jefferson was an admirer of Jesus Christ? That he didn't share Jesus' values and principles? That his morality and perception on how a Government should fit in society wasn't molded by his admiration of Christ. Jefferson writes one letter and that supposed to mean you can't even pray in public. Jefferson wasn't some Prog/Fascist/Socialist.

Secondly why don't you focus on the men who were actually present when The Constitution was debated, drafted and signed? Oh that's right you can't do that because then your Jefferson strawman goes up in flames.

Let's talk about the men who were actually not out of the country when The Bill of Rights and Constitution were drafted/debated/signed. What say you

Hatuey said:
You're right. You said the founding fathers would have disagreed with Rogue's claim: religion and government should be kept separate.

You assertion that they would have all disagreed is proven false by Jefferson's words. Whether you like it or not, he's a founding father.
Click to expand...

After Washington put his hand on The Bible and took the oath what did he and everyone go do
 
Re: Priests Risk Arrest for Offering Sacraments to Catholic Troops During Shutdown

Bronson said:
Are you denying Jefferson was an admirer of Jesus Christ? That he didn't share Jesus' values and principles? That his morality and perception on how a Government should fit in society wasn't molded by his admiration of Christ. Jefferson writes one letter and that supposed to mean you can't even pray in public. Jefferson wasn't some Prog/Fascist/Socialist.
Click to expand...

His personal beliefs are not what is in question here. What is in question is whether he supported a separation of church and state. He clearly did which makes you statement false.

Secondly why don't you focus on the men who were actually present when The Constitution was debated, drafted and signed?
Click to expand...

Because they're not the only only founding fathers. Jefferson is a FF too.

The Constitution of the United States: Fast Facts - National Constitution Center

Two of America’s Founding Fathers didn’t sign the Constitution. Thomas Jefferson was representing his country in France and John Adams was doing the same in Great Britain.
Click to expand...

Let's talk about the men who were actually not out of the country when The Bill of Rights and Constitution were drafted/debated/signed. What say you
Click to expand...

I say the same thing which has been explained to you: They're not the only Founding Fathers. As already shown to you over and over again. Out of the 55 - only 39 actually signed the Constitution even though they actually debated it. Does that make them founding fathers? Or are only signers FFs? Well, then there is still Washington who most definitely signed it and thought church and state should be kept separate.

After Washington put his hand on The Bible and took the oath what did he and everyone go do
Click to expand...

Yes, for the same reason Muslims are allowed to put take oath with a Koran, and John Quincy Adams took an oath on a law book. It represents their personal beliefs, not their applications of personal beliefs to law. You're making a ridiculously flawed argument by linking personal religious views to whether or not a person supports separation of church and state.
 
Re: Priests Risk Arrest for Offering Sacraments to Catholic Troops During Shutdown

So, I have a quick question. The thread title is about priests being arrested, or at least threatened with arrest. Yet the linked article in the OP says nothing about this. There's bits in the comments where people speculate that the president will arrest these priests, but no one has actually said that they're going to.

So, what's the deal here? The actual story is that a church was closed because of the shutdown. That's what happens when you shut things down. They close. What's with the talk about arrests? Why the lies in the OP?
 
Re: Priests Risk Arrest for Offering Sacraments to Catholic Troops During Shutdown

Bronson said:
Let's talk about the men who were actually not out of the country when The Bill of Rights and Constitution were drafted/debated/signed. What say you
Click to expand...

Strongly guarded as is the separation between religion and & Gov't in the Constitution of the United States the danger of encroachment by Ecclesiastical Bodies, may be illustrated by precedents already furnished in their short history (Detached Memoranda, circa 1820).
Click to expand...

-James Madison

Madison was there. Agreed with the principle of the Separation of Church and State.
 
Re: Priests Risk Arrest for Offering Sacraments to Catholic Troops During Shutdown

Hatuey said:
He's so funny to watch when it comes to that question. Have you realized he has never once admitted where the golf course's funding comes from? I wonder why? He just keeps diverting to how much we hate the troops and Jesus and capitalism.
Click to expand...

Yeah, there are times where I'll read **** on here and I actually become embarrassed to be a member. And it's always the same people in every thread.


It's like how the **** do these people manage to survive and not end up trying to plug in a fork?
 
Re: Priests Risk Arrest for Offering Sacraments to Catholic Troops During Shutdown

Hatuey said:
His personal beliefs are not what is in question here. What is in question is whether he supported a separation of church and state. He clearly did which makes you statement false.



Because they're not the only only founding fathers. Jefferson is a FF too.

The Constitution of the United States: Fast Facts - National Constitution Center





I say the same thing which has been explained to you: They're not the only Founding Fathers. As already shown to you over and over again. Out of the 55 - only 39 actually signed the Constitution even though they actually debated it. Does that make them founding fathers? Or are only signers FFs? Well, then there is still Washington who most definitely signed it and thought church and state should be kept separate.



Yes, for the same reason Muslims are allowed to put take oath with a Koran, and John Quincy Adams took an oath on a law book. It represents their personal beliefs, not their applications of personal beliefs to law. You're making a ridiculously flawed argument by linking personal religious views to whether or not a person supports separation of church and state.
Click to expand...

"Separation of Church and State" doesn't exist in the Constitution

It's really quite simple, but you want to light a match in your field of strawmen and continue to bleet about Jefferson

The morality of The Founders (including Jefferson) which directly shaped their views on Government's role in your life, was DIRECTLY influenced by the words and teachings of Jesus Christ

That has nothing to do with a "state religion". Even Jefferson handed out "Bibles" at taxpayer expense. He wasn't a prog/atheist/Obot. Hugo Black (A KKK Democrat) is who made "Separation of Church and State" mean you can't even say God in Public. Why do you support something a klansman would say? Are you racist?
 
Re: Priests Risk Arrest for Offering Sacraments to Catholic Troops During Shutdown

roguenuke said:
Again, the gulf course is on open military installations and pays for itself, either by its own profits or MWR funds, which are not government provided. The people who take care of the Memorials are paid with taxpayer funds.

The government shutdown did all those things, not Obama. And that is if they actually happened as being reported rather than people using such things to attack Obama. The "blocking of the highway" was not as reported. They weren't trying to block everything, but rather funnel people through without tying up traffic or causing problems. And those "homes" were vacation homes, not their actual places of residence.

Shutdown forces owners to leave Lake Mead homes | Las Vegas Review-Journal
Click to expand...
MWR funds are NAF dollars. They are both provided by MWR sales (MWR is required to be a money making venture) and supplemental command directed dollars. However...Im not really sure why that is a relevant question. The Pisgah Inn was a completely privately funded venture as are several concessions. They were forced closed by the administration by expending previously unused resources and blocking off roads. Commissaries on military installations were forced closed. And apparently a chapel on a military installation was forced closed. Golf course? nah...

Its not about the funding issue. Its about how extraordinarily petulant and childish this administration is.
 
Re: Priests Risk Arrest for Offering Sacraments to Catholic Troops During Shutdown

Bronson said:
"Separation of Church and State" doesn't exist in the Constitution
Click to expand...

Of course it does. As supported by case after case that backs the free exercise of religion.

The morality of The Founders (including Jefferson) which directly shaped their views on Government's role in your life, was DIRECTLY influenced by the words and teachings of Jesus Christ
Click to expand...

Really? Which part of Jesus' teaching is this based on:

All Bills for raising Revenue shall originate in the House of Representatives; but the Senate may propose or concur with Amendments as on other Bills.
Click to expand...

Lol, your arguments are so easily disputable.
 
Re: Priests Risk Arrest for Offering Sacraments to Catholic Troops During Shutdown

Bronson said:
You're just bleeting the talking points

Obama has even hired private security goons to block Independence Hall

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N078jMaPA5M

Obama actually used more resources to shut down the WW2 memorials that would ever be used to keep them open. They are open parks. Obama has even shut down the grand canyon. It just amazes me that disgusting filthy people continue to defend this Fascism and abuse of power. Why do are defending such corruption? That's the real question.

Fortunately people are seeing through this pattern of Obama abusing his power like a fascist dictator. From NSA spying to IRS target and harassment. This is just another example of many.

You should be asking yourself why your Messiah would deny the families of military KIA their benefits too
Click to expand...

This all depends on how you look at it. If there are laws in place that say certain things/government services that cannot operate during a government shutdown, without specific things being paid for first by the government, then he is following those laws. Plus, what would happen if someone were at one of those places and got hurt during a government shutdown? What pays for the insurance at government owned parks or is it simply reliant on the court system to deal with it?

Seriously? LOL! You have major issues. I voted for McCain in the first election and neither the second. I consider Obama unqualified for the job and disagree with plenty things he does, but I simply think it is stupid to place blame on the President for every single thing, especially something that is much more easily avoided by simply coming to an agreement on time and stop acting like children, something that is Congress's fault, not Obama's.
 
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