What happens when the U.S. disability fund runs dry?

Rocketman · Oct 6, 2013

I watched this tonight, it pretty much backs up what I have posted here and at other boards. The system is over-run with fraud. The statute reads "if you can work any job, you are not qualified for disability". It is sad what society has become.

This week, Steve Kroft reported on the U.S. disability fund, which is on track to become the first government entitlement program to run out of cash.

Kroft and his team, 60 Minutes producers James Jacoby and Michael Karzis, found that the disability program has become a "secret welfare system."

"A lot of it is just people gaming the system," says Kroft. "If you're 50 years old and you've got a bad back, what are you going to do? Are you going to try and take a minimum wage job with no health insurance? Or are you going to try and get on disability?"

When it began back in the 50s, the disability fund was a small program, intended only for people who were unable to work because of illness or injury. Today, the 60 Minutes team reported, the disability fund serves nearly 12 million people, up 20 percent in the last six years alone. But perhaps the most surprising figure in Kroft's story is the overall size of the program: it has a budget of $135 billion -- more than the government spent last year on the Department of Homeland Security, the Justice Department, and the Labor Department combined.

Why the sudden surge in disabled people in this country? Sen. Tom Coburn of Oklahoma, who is leading a Senate investigation of the disability program, says millions of people are gaming the system:

What happens when the U.S. disability fund runs dry? - 60 Minutes Overtime - CBS News

opendebate · Oct 6, 2013

Rocketman said:
I watched this tonight, it pretty much backs up what I have posted here and at other boards. The system is over-run with fraud. The statute reads "if you can work any job, you are not qualified for disability". It is sad what society has become.

This week, Steve Kroft reported on the U.S. disability fund, which is on track to become the first government entitlement program to run out of cash.

Kroft and his team, 60 Minutes producers James Jacoby and Michael Karzis, found that the disability program has become a "secret welfare system."

"A lot of it is just people gaming the system," says Kroft. "If you're 50 years old and you've got a bad back, what are you going to do? Are you going to try and take a minimum wage job with no health insurance? Or are you going to try and get on disability?"

When it began back in the 50s, the disability fund was a small program, intended only for people who were unable to work because of illness or injury. Today, the 60 Minutes team reported, the disability fund serves nearly 12 million people, up 20 percent in the last six years alone. But perhaps the most surprising figure in Kroft's story is the overall size of the program: it has a budget of $135 billion -- more than the government spent last year on the Department of Homeland Security, the Justice Department, and the Labor Department combined.

Why the sudden surge in disabled people in this country? Sen. Tom Coburn of Oklahoma, who is leading a Senate investigation of the disability program, says millions of people are gaming the system:

What happens when the U.S. disability fund runs dry? - 60 Minutes Overtime - CBS News

It's a shame that well intended programs like this one are hijacked in this way. I think the problem is in execution and oversight though. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Rocketman · Oct 6, 2013

opendebate said:
It's a shame that well intended programs like this one are hijacked in this way. I think the problem is in execution and oversight though. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

One of those interviewed stated Fibromyalgia was a good example. There is no way to prove you actually have it or that you don't. I think if you followed the one statute that if you can do any job, you can't be disabled it would be fairly easy to manage.

opendebate · Oct 6, 2013

Rocketman said:
One of those interviewed stated Fibromyalgia was a good example. There is no way to prove you actually have it or that you don't. I think if you followed the one statute that if you can do any job, you can't be disabled it would be fairly easy to manage.

So, am I clearly understanding where we are here?( that we agree on the basic premise that these programs are a good idea but we need to find a better way to discourage fraud or make it more difficult to defraud) If so, fibro is a weird one. I completely understand your point however, womens healthcare is much more complicated then men's. We often get this kind of blanket or catch-all diagnosis when doctors can't figure out what is wrong but a women is really suffering from symptoms. I have had numerous docs tell me they thought I had fibro and I basically told them to **** off because I get what it is. I get muscle aches and pain that are debilitating but it comes in waves. i can go months and have nothing then weeks and I am miserable. I just struggle through it and keep going and have for years. But....if it was constant I really wouldn't be able to reliably execute my work. I am a workaholic so this is a very difficult truth for me to accept but it is what it is. So, I would suggest something other than targeting illnesses that have sketchy or loose/difficult diagnoses. Also, I am curious about the fraud. That in and of itself would probably be a difficult thing to track or isolate. What if we found that there was a tiny percentage say 2% that could work and didn't. If keeping them from getting away with fraud also kept say 50% of applicants from getting assistance they deserved would it be worth it?

Rocketman · Oct 6, 2013

opendebate said:
So, am I clearly understanding where we are here?( that we agree on the basic premise that these programs are a good idea but we need to find a better way to discourage fraud or make it more difficult to defraud) If so, fibro is a weird one. I completely understand your point however, womens healthcare is much more complicated then men's. We often get this kind of blanket or catch-all diagnosis when doctors can't figure out what is wrong but a women is really suffering from symptoms. I have had numerous docs tell me they thought I had fibro and I basically told them to **** off because I get what it is. I get muscle aches and pain that are debilitating but it comes in waves. i can go months and have nothing then weeks and I am miserable. I just struggle through it and keep going and have for years. But....if it was constant I really wouldn't be able to reliably execute my work. I am a workaholic so this is a very difficult truth for me to accept but it is what it is. So, I would suggest something other than targeting illnesses that have sketchy or loose/difficult diagnoses. Also, I am curious about the fraud. That in and of itself would probably be a difficult thing to track or isolate. What if we found that there was a tiny percentage say 2% that could work and didn't. If keeping them from getting away with fraud also kept say 50% of applicants from getting assistance they deserved would it be worth it?

You should try to watch the news piece, there was a lawyer operating in Eastern Ky that is getting 100% of his clients on disability. I did not know until tonight, but if you hire a lawyer for an appeal and win, the government has to cover those fees. It is a racket that needs to be stopped.

Dickieboy · Oct 6, 2013

opendebate said:
It's a shame that well intended programs like this one are hijacked in this way. I think the problem is in execution and oversight though. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Weird, your statement was essentially what Sen. Tom Coburn said in the interview...

Dickieboy · Oct 6, 2013

Rocketman said:
You should try to watch the news piece, there was a lawyer operating in Eastern Ky that is getting 100% of his clients on disability. I did not know until tonight, but if you hire a lawyer for an appeal and win, the government has to cover those fees. It is a racket that needs to be stopped.

Yeah, like the taxpayers spent $1b last year on these legal fees (if I heard it right)...

opendebate · Oct 6, 2013

Rocketman said:
You should try to watch the news piece, there was a lawyer operating in Eastern Ky that is getting 100% of his clients on disability. I did not know until tonight, but if you hire a lawyer for an appeal and win, the government has to cover those fees. It is a racket that needs to be stopped.

Whoa, I did not know about that. I would hope that this would make the system better. They would try to avoid getting into that tangle by improving the approval/denial process. That's interesting. I will definitely check that out. Thanks.

Rocketman · Oct 6, 2013

Dickieboy said:
Yeah, like the taxpayers spent $1b last year on these legal fees (if I heard it right)...

I guess the lawyers liked it.

opendebate · Oct 6, 2013

Dickieboy said:
Weird, your statement was essentially what Sen. Tom Coburn said in the interview...

Hmm.. Smart man.

tererun · Oct 6, 2013

opendebate said:
It's a shame that well intended programs like this one are hijacked in this way. I think the problem is in execution and oversight though. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

It has been obvious for a long time the american disability system is abused and there are many people on it quite capable of working, and many doctors who overdiagnose people as disabled. I am not saying there are not disabled people, and that I do not want disability there to cover them. We have to reign this thing in, and there is no incentive to do so. This is not just a problem of financing, this has many other problems with it. It is a self perpetuating system that has every incentive to make itself worse. The government people who administer the funds are all employed because there are disabled people. less people means less employees are needed and that means some of them get canned. plus that also means less funding if they do not use up all of their previous funding so they always have to use it because it means more money comes there way if they need it. This makes it likely that they will be very open to new applicants.

Then you have the doctors. A person who is disabled should be seeing a doctor a lot more often than a healthy person. This means doctors who want regular customers with problems that require medication they get kickbacks for just need to diagnose people with disability. Tyhe p[atient then has to get approvals and medications and continue treatment for their problem, and that makes money for the doctor. What is even better is now we have the mental disorder people jumping on the bandwagon and declaring people with mental problems disabled. Oh I have social anxiety disorder so I need lots of counseling, some expensive pills, and the government needs to pay me to sit on my ass. Why get over your disorder when you get enough money to sit at home alone and have food clothing and your TV? Why should a doctor cure you when you will just stop seeing them?

Now the lawyers are jumping in to take a chunk. The lawyers made it so the government will pay the fees for the people trying to get on disability so now it is refuse the person, then they go out and get a lawyer, and then give it to the person and shell more money out to a lawyer who didn't have business before. If you don't think the lawyers got together on that one and said how can we make the laws so we can get more money on both sides from the government you do not know the dirty underhanded lowdown mind of a lawyer. Seriously, what is the future career goal of a lawyer? To become a politician.

Of course the system is screwed up and there is no reason to change it. It is why I am not overly freaking out over the shutdown. Nope, keep it coming and shut down disability. Yeah, some people will get hurt, and the reason for it sucks, but Oh well. Disabled people sit there and whine about the system that keeps them funded. You would not believe how many jerkoffs there are in the tea party pulling disability or social security, or some form of government assistance who are all for this government shutdown. I say hurt them.

reinoe · Oct 6, 2013

tererun said:
You would not believe how many jerkoffs there are in the tea party pulling disability or social security, or some form of government assistance who are all for this government shutdown. I say hurt them.

It kinda reminds me of the folks demanding that the government stay out of their medicare. I wish the shutdown actually shutdown these sorts of things. Medicare, Medicaid, Disability, and unemployment. Either people demand that the government cut back on those types of spending in the first place or the government fully pays it's obligations. No more of these chumps who want to eat their cake and have it too.

opendebate · Oct 6, 2013

tererun said:
It has been obvious for a long time the american disability system is abused and there are many people on it quite capable of working, and many doctors who overdiagnose people as disabled. I am not saying there are not disabled people, and that I do not want disability there to cover them. We have to reign this thing in, and there is no incentive to do so. This is not just a problem of financing, this has many other problems with it. It is a self perpetuating system that has every incentive to make itself worse. The government people who administer the funds are all employed because there are disabled people. less people means less employees are needed and that means some of them get canned. plus that also means less funding if they do not use up all of their previous funding so they always have to use it because it means more money comes there way if they need it. This makes it likely that they will be very open to new applicants.

Then you have the doctors. A person who is disabled should be seeing a doctor a lot more often than a healthy person. This means doctors who want regular customers with problems that require medication they get kickbacks for just need to diagnose people with disability. Tyhe p[atient then has to get approvals and medications and continue treatment for their problem, and that makes money for the doctor. What is even better is now we have the mental disorder people jumping on the bandwagon and declaring people with mental problems disabled. Oh I have social anxiety disorder so I need lots of counseling, some expensive pills, and the government needs to pay me to sit on my ass. Why get over your disorder when you get enough money to sit at home alone and have food clothing and your TV? Why should a doctor cure you when you will just stop seeing them?

Now the lawyers are jumping in to take a chunk. The lawyers made it so the government will pay the fees for the people trying to get on disability so now it is refuse the person, then they go out and get a lawyer, and then give it to the person and shell more money out to a lawyer who didn't have business before. If you don't think the lawyers got together on that one and said how can we make the laws so we can get more money on both sides from the government you do not know the dirty underhanded lowdown mind of a lawyer. Seriously, what is the future career goal of a lawyer? To become a politician.

Of course the system is screwed up and there is no reason to change it. It is why I am not overly freaking out over the shutdown. Nope, keep it coming and shut down disability. Yeah, some people will get hurt, and the reason for it sucks, but Oh well. Disabled people sit there and whine about the system that keeps them funded. You would not believe how many jerkoffs there are in the tea party pulling disability or social security, or some form of government assistance who are all for this government shutdown. I say hurt them.

So I hear you....but this is a little harsh. There are veterans, children, elderly all who are innocent politically and would suffer personally.

tererun · Oct 6, 2013

reinoe said:
It kinda reminds me of the folks demanding that the government stay out of their medicare. I wish the shutdown actually shutdown these sorts of things. Medicare, Medicaid, Disability, and unemployment. Either people demand that the government cut back on those types of spending in the first place or the government fully pays it's obligations. No more of these chumps who want to eat their cake and have it too.

I say just remind them that society has the ability to take care of people who cannot, and before you take the holier than thou I will do it all myself attitude you had better make sure you are actually doing it yourself.

tererun · Oct 7, 2013

opendebate said:
So I hear you....but this is a little harsh. There are veterans, children, elderly all who are innocent politically and would suffer personally.

I understand that, but people are falling fior the we do not need any government line. I do not believe in the libertarian no government way. I see government as providing necessary services and making our lives better. There are a lot of people taking handouts of their own who want to end those for other people, like donald trump and the corporate welfare gang. They do not want the programs shut down because they are actually conservative, they want those other programs shut down so they can get more for themselves. It seems that many of these people have actually forgotten what we get from government and how good our life is because of that.

This leads to things like laziness and ignorance. If you do not want to get your ass down to the polls and vote for the people who will get you your programs and outvote those who are trying to strip them from you like the republicans and corporate owned democrats then yes you are fgoing to get hurt. I like social security, but i would love to see it be cut off for all the old faux news watching right wing voting elderly who rely on that program. I would love the republicans to get their way and cut it off and to sit there with the bloody hands on the scissors while the elderly starve to death until the nezxt election when they remember republicans want the death panels.

I think society can and should do a lot more for people, but until we remind people not to toss the baby out with the bathwater we will not work on programs to actually cut back on the abuses and take a true fiscal responsible mindset of guaranteeing these programs are here in the future by making them efficient and cutting the fraud and abuse. The programs need to be seriously altered, and not cut off. People need to recognize who should be complaining and who should be allowed to roll on the ground and whine like the entitled spoiled brats they are. The only way I see that happening is pain and light the thing on fire and remind people what they take for granted. Yes, that is harsh, but I am perfectly fine with the people who take it the most for granted, aka republicans and conservatives, lighting the fire so we know firmly who to blame.