Warren Buffet Says Scrap Obamacare Start over[W:67]

Re: Warren Buffet Says Scrap Obamacare Start over

Dittohead not! said:

Single payer insurance as used in the modern world has proven far superior to our patchwork system in keeping costs down, to be sure, but it still is plagued with increasing expense.

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Yes, we call that "inflation".....but that was not the point. Cost control is the point, there is little to no incentive for cost control in the private insurance market we have in place in the US, but it is the basis of SP.

Re: Warren Buffet Says Scrap Obamacare Start over

Gimmesometruth said:

Yes, we call that "inflation".....but that was not the point. Cost control is the point, there is little to no incentive for cost control in the private insurance market we have in place in the US, but it is the basis of SP.

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There is inflation, to be sure, and then there are sectors of the economy that are outstripping inflation. Health care is one of them.

Even the nations with pre paid health care are feeling the pinch, despite the fact that they pay a lot less than we do. That's why we need to think outside of the box instead of copying what someone else has done.

Re: Warren Buffet Says Scrap Obamacare Start over

Dittohead not! said:

There is inflation, to be sure, and then there are sectors of the economy that are outstripping inflation. Health care is one of them.

Even the nations with pre paid health care are feeling the pinch, despite the fact that they pay a lot less than we do. That's why we need to think outside of the box instead of copying what someone else has done.

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You are still avoiding the point.

Carry on.

Re: Warren Buffet Says Scrap Obamacare Start over

Gimmesometruth said:

You are still avoiding the point.

Carry on.

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If, as you say, cost control is the point, and I totally agree that it has to be the point, then applying market principles to the problem is a good way to accomplish that.

Re: Warren Buffet Says Scrap Obamacare Start over

Gimmesometruth said:

I was addressing the COST OF SERVICES, not the comparative health of populations.

Content and context phail.

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1. Services cost more when demand (from high levels of morbidity) strains supply.
2. By controlling supply and demand, healthcare costs in other SP countries are whatever they want to allocate to that part of the economy. Doesn't mean we could adequately meet the healthcare needs (which are much higher than theirs) in our country with similar funding levels.

Context and content was and is completely relevant to the discussion of medical costs.

Re: Warren Buffet Says Scrap Obamacare Start over

ReformCollege said:

1. Services cost more when demand (from high levels of morbidity) strains supply.
2. By controlling supply and demand, healthcare costs in other SP countries are whatever they want to allocate to that part of the economy. Doesn't mean we could adequately meet the healthcare needs (which are much higher than theirs) in our country with similar funding levels.

Context and content was and is completely relevant to the discussion of medical costs.

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So, our health care system is OK, it is just fat, lazy Americans who are straining the system. That's why we pay more than twice as much on average as France.

No kidding?

Re: Warren Buffet Says Scrap Obamacare Start over

sawdust said:

You act as if the individual mandate is all there is to Obamacare. Nothing could be further from the truth. That concept could be put down in a couple pages and Obamacare consists of thousands of pages of taxes, regulations and mandates. I don't doubt that the concept could have originated at the Heritage Foundation. Lots of people work at that think tank and lots of different suggestions came from them. Republicans are full of bad ideas. So are Democrats. That's one I don't agree with however, the totality of Obamacare was not authored by Heritage, they do not support it in it's present form and neither does anyone else who has to deal with it's expense or complexities. Obamacare is strictly a Democrat bill, Democrats own it and if they had any sense they'd listen to the American people and scrap it.

One fact is inescapable. The Heritage Foundation did nor write Obamacare, nor did they force it on Democrats or they responsible for the bill which is poorly conceived, poorly written and so far poorly executed.

With Respect to Romneycare, I don't like it either but I don't have the same objective to it that I do to Obamacare because I believe the constitution authorized the states to deal with issues like health insurance. If they like it or want it in Mass. So be it.

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The individual mandate is the crux of Obamacare. It IS the central tenant. It was what Heritage authored and advocated in the 1990's as their answer to Hillary care, which was much more like universal healthcare. The point of the individual mandate is leverage the existing private insurance infrastructure to provide insurance for everyone and cost down on it by making everyone buy it. The existing plan is essence the Romney plan. Obamacare has very, very little democratic ideas within. It, at the end of the day, is very Republican. You can review any of the almost dozen articles I posted, they will all say it.

To the original assertion about the Dems having their way.... no, the reason Obama used the Republican idea was to get Republican participation. But, as so many cases, if Obama likes a Republican idea, its time for Republicans to run away and act like they never heard of the (their own) idea in the first place.

The Cons own Obamacare. The conceived it, developed and implemented it at the state level.... we could have had a real national healthcare system like EVERY other 1st world county, but the Cons are trying to build their idea utopia, New Somalia, right here in the Americas.

http://www.theatlantic.com/internat...-health-care-americas-still-not-on-it/259153/

Re: Warren Buffet Says Scrap Obamacare Start over

upsideguy said:

The individual mandate is the crux of Obamacare. It IS the central tenant. It was what Heritage authored and advocated in the 1990's as their answer to Hillary care, which was much more like universal healthcare. The point of the individual mandate is leverage the existing private insurance infrastructure to provide insurance for everyone and cost down on it by making everyone buy it. The existing plan is essence the Romney plan. Obamacare has very, very little democratic ideas within. It, at the end of the day, is very Republican. You can review any of the almost dozen articles I posted, they will all say it.

To the original assertion about the Dems having their way.... no, the reason Obama used the Republican idea was to get Republican participation. But, as so many cases, if Obama likes a Republican idea, its time for Republicans to run away and act like they never heard of the (their own) idea in the first place.

The Cons own Obamacare. The conceived it, developed and implemented it at the state level.... we could have had a real national healthcare system like EVERY other 1st world county, but the Cons are trying to build their idea utopia, New Somalia, right here in the Americas.

Here's a Map of the Countries That Provide Universal Health Care (America's Still Not on It) - Max Fisher - The Atlantic

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Blaming Obamacare on anyone other than democrats is simply weird. I don't care if a conservative think tank talked about part of it in the nineties. The transformation of the idea is an unworkable mess that's very unpopular with the general public. Trying to push that on to conservatives is chicken**** in my opinion.

Re: Warren Buffet Says Scrap Obamacare Start over

sawdust said:

Blaming Obamacare on anyone other than democrats is simply weird. I don't care if a conservative think tank talked about part of it in the nineties. The transformation of the idea is an unworkable mess that's very unpopular with the general public. Trying to push that on to conservatives is chicken**** in my opinion.

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Hardly "blaming" the Cons for Obamacare. In fact, I am saying the Cons should be proud of the fact that they substantially designed the rudiments of what will eventually be our national healthcare system. Of course, the thing I blame them for is feigning outrage over the implementation of their very creation.

History will enjoy the great irony of it all.

Re: Warren Buffet Says Scrap Obamacare Start over

Mycroft said:

There is really only one way to deal with the ER problem: Remove the requirement that they treat anyone who walks in their doors.

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I know some people truly believe this kind of stuff, but others of us enjoy living in a civilized country. Certainly your post is a good rebuttal to those that want to declare America a Christian as what you advocate is anything but Christian:

Matthew 25 40-46 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’ 41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’ 44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’ 45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’ 46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

sawdust said:

Warren Buffett: Scrap Obamacare and Start Over | The Weekly Standard

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Defund Obamacare? Warren Buffett Quote Spurs GOP Hope - Business Insider

"Here's the problem with that evidence: Warren Buffett did not say that, and definitely not yesterday. And though certain unions within the AFL-CIO have well-documented problems with Obamacare, that sweeping statement misrepresents the union's position.

Debbie Bosanek, a spokesman for Buffett, told Business Insider that she alerted Buffett to the quote, and said he was shocked that it was attributed to him.

"It is a very false representation," Bosanek said. "Mr. Buffett never, ever said Obamacare should be scrapped. He never said it, and he never thought it."

sawdust said:

Warren Buffett: Scrap Obamacare and Start Over | The Weekly Standard

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Now if we can just get a quote out of Souros, the entire committee of overlords will have pointed out what a pos that law is.

Re: Warren Buffet Says Scrap Obamacare Start over

upsideguy said:

I know some people truly believe this kind of stuff, but others of us enjoy living in a civilized country. Certainly your post is a good rebuttal to those that want to declare America a Christian as what you advocate is anything but Christian:

Matthew 25 40-46 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’ 41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’ 44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’ 45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’ 46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

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I don't know the bible very well...I'm not religious...but I see nothing there that says the government is responsible for helping people...only people helping people. Voluntarily.

Re: Warren Buffet Says Scrap Obamacare Start over

Midwest Lib said:

I agree. Scrap it. The only people who "like" Obama care are the people on the left who will support, in a hyper-partisan manner, anything that their side puts to paper. Most free thinking liberals I know dislike Obamacare as much as many conservatives (although for some different reasons)

A big reason I voted for Obama in 2008 was the possibility of UHC and a single payer system. What we got was a bloated piece of crap that continues to serve big business above all.

I say scrap it and work on medicare for all.

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I think Obamacare needs an overhaul but single-payer is not the answer...unless you enjoying dealing with the post office, DMV and nearly every other government beauracracy/monopoly and would especially enjoy it if you're feeling horrible when you need to del with them.

What we need is something that:

- Saves money by eliminating middle-men who add their profits into our costs (health insurance).
- Reduces costs and drives innovation through competition
- Gets people's employers out of the equation and thus control over what level of healthcare we may receive and from which provider
- Keeps in place the individual mandate with back-payments assessed for those who don't comply. Tie payments to something we must have like utilities, rent/mortgage, mail delivery or payroll.
- Something that keeps those with pre-existing conditions from falling through the cracks.
- Something that offers annual rebates for choosing healthy lifestyles such as no drugs, no alcohol, low cholesterol, low triglycerides, low weight, low heart rate, documented to regularly work out, etc.; both individually and a separate rebate based on the group we belong to overall average.

Something that keeps all members of the same household on a single family membership provided they live under that same roof or are away at college.

Re: Warren Buffet Says Scrap Obamacare Start over

Twelve pages now, all about a statement that Buffet actually didn't make.

Re: Warren Buffet Says Scrap Obamacare Start over

Dittohead not! said:

If, as you say, cost control is the point, and I totally agree that it has to be the point, then applying market principles to the problem is a good way to accomplish that.

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So this is your brand of "thinking outside the box"?

Markets that are profit based...for medical care....are immoral. I would venture that greed is 99% of the reason why we spend @ 30% more for health care than the rest of the modern world. Profit based competition is not the answer to lowering health costs. You have had competitive markets within states for over the last 100 years and it has not lead to cost reductions.

Re: Warren Buffet Says Scrap Obamacare Start over

Smeagol said:

I think Obamacare needs an overhaul but single-payer is not the answer...unless you enjoying dealing with the post office, DMV and nearly every other government beauracracy/monopoly and would especially enjoy it if you're feeling horrible when you need to del with them........

What we need is something that:

- Saves money by eliminating middle-men who add their profits into our costs (health insurance).
- Reduces costs and drives innovation through competition
- Gets people's employers out of the equation and thus control over what level of healthcare we may receive and from which provider
- Keeps in place the individual mandate with back-payments assessed for those who don't comply. Tie payments to something we must have like utilities, rent/mortgage, mail delivery or payroll.
- Something that keeps those with pre-existing conditions from falling through the cracks.
- Something that offers annual rebates for choosing healthy lifestyles such as no drugs, no alcohol, low cholesterol, low triglycerides, low weight, low heart rate, documented to regularly work out, etc.; both individually and a separate rebate based on the group we belong to overall average.

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I see, you are against govt bureaucracy.....but are ok with private corporations testing you regularly for drugs, alcohol, going through your frig and garbage.....


Wow.

Re: Warren Buffet Says Scrap Obamacare Start over

Dittohead not! said:

So, our health care system is OK, it is just fat, lazy Americans who are straining the system. That's why we pay more than twice as much on average as France.

No kidding?

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Sounds about right. But you are also ignoring that France pays whatever France wants to pay for their healthcare. They set the cost and amount of services and control who gets what. Doesn't mean they have better services then us, I highly doubt our country could get away with France's level of funding without a huge increase in morbidity.

Re: Warren Buffet Says Scrap Obamacare Start over

Gimmesometruth said:

I see, you are against govt bureaucracy.....but are ok with private corporations testing you regularly for drugs, alcohol, going through your frig and garbage.....


Wow.

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I think you're missing a key factor. Nobody has to try to get the rebate. If you don't want to do things that'll make your healthcare less expensive of offer support that show you do, then fine, just skip getting a Christmas bonus rebate check once a year.

Re: Warren Buffet Says Scrap Obamacare Start over

Dittohead not! said:

Twelve pages now, all about a statement that Buffet actually didn't make.

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Tell me about it.

Today in Conservative Obamacare Self-Delusion -- Daily Intelligencer

The quote was picked up by Jeffrey H. Anderson of the Weekly Standard — “You know things are bad for President Obama when even Warren Buffett has soured on Obamacare and says that ‘we need something else’” — and ricocheted around the conservative-news world, implanting itself in Jordan’s mind as yet the latest evidence that even supporters of Obamacare recognize it is doomed to failure.

In fact, the Buffett quote came from comments he made in 2010, when the health-care law was being cobbled together in Congress. His denunciation of “what we have right now” refers to the pre-Obamacare status quo. Buffett said in that interview he would prefer a better health-care bill than the one that was before Congress, but also preferred the one before Congress to doing nothing and would vote for it: “If it was a choice today between plan A, which is what we've got, or plan B, what is in front of — the Senate bill, I would vote for the Senate bill,” Buffett said. “But I would much rather see a plan C that really attacks costs.”

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Re: Warren Buffet Says Scrap Obamacare Start over

Gimmesometruth said:

So this is your brand of "thinking outside the box"?

Markets that are profit based...for medical care....are immoral. I would venture that greed is 99% of the reason why we spend @ 30% more for health care than the rest of the modern world. Profit based competition is not the answer to lowering health costs. You have had competitive markets within states for over the last 100 years and it has not lead to cost reductions.

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We haven't had a free market for medical care since the70's thanks to increased government control and mandates...especially in respect to insurance companies.

And what's immoral about free market medical care. Do you think it is immoral to make a profit on food? Housing? Etc?

Re: Warren Buffet Says Scrap Obamacare Start over

Mycroft said:

We haven't had a free market for medical care since the70's thanks to increased government control and mandates...especially in respect to insurance companies.

And what's immoral about free market medical care. Do you think it is immoral to make a profit on food? Housing? Etc?

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I agree. The only people who complain about profit in health care are the ones that have no clue about how markets work. Competition controls price, promotes efficiency, quality of care and service. Congress stripped competition out of health care when HMO's and PPO's locked in insurance companies profits. There is no proper functioning market in healthcare in this country today and that's why costs are out of control.

Profit also funds research and development of new procedures, new equipment and proper facilities. Thinking that a proper health care system can function without profit is just ignorant. Systems that run at break even eventually break down.

Re: Warren Buffet Says Scrap Obamacare Start over

Gimmesometruth said:

So this is your brand of "thinking outside the box"?

Markets that are profit based...for medical care....are immoral. I would venture that greed is 99% of the reason why we spend @ 30% more for health care than the rest of the modern world. Profit based competition is not the answer to lowering health costs. You have had competitive markets within states for over the last 100 years and it has not lead to cost reductions.

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Not for medical care, but for medical insurance.

But, still, there is nothing immoral about capitalism.

Re: Warren Buffet Says Scrap Obamacare Start over

ReformCollege said:

Sounds about right. But you are also ignoring that France pays whatever France wants to pay for their healthcare. They set the cost and amount of services and control who gets what. Doesn't mean they have better services then us, I highly doubt our country could get away with France's level of funding without a huge increase in morbidity.

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We should. If the French can do it, we should be able to as well. Remember, as to quality, the WHO rates France among the best, if not the best, in the world.

But, we could do better yet if we were to simply have a universal, high deductible, insurance that covered everyone, sort of like the plan that Singapore has, but on a larger scale.

If the US is exceptional, then we should be able to devise an exceptional health care system instead of one that is just exceptionally expensive.

Re: Warren Buffet Says Scrap Obamacare Start over

Dittohead not! said:

We should. If the French can do it, we should be able to as well. Remember, as to quality, the WHO rates France among the best, if not the best, in the world.

But, we could do better yet if we were to simply have a universal, high deductible, insurance that covered everyone, sort of like the plan that Singapore has, but on a larger scale.

If the US is exceptional, then we should be able to devise an exceptional health care system instead of one that is just exceptionally expensive.

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Lol. Just a warning, I'm about to smack you down for using the WHO as a credible resource.

The WHO only looks at 5 things in its study. Those are.
Health (50%) : disability-adjusted life expectancy Overall or average : 25%
Distribution or equality : 25%

Responsiveness (25%) : speed of service, protection of privacy, and quality of amenities Overall or average : 12.5%
Distribution or equality : 12.5%

Fair financial contribution : 25%

Lets look at these one at a time.
Life expectancy: We have more gun fatalities and automobile accidents. In fact, the number of drunk driving deaths in the US. This has exactly what to do with doctors, and nurses? There goes 50% of the metric right out the window, and I didn't even need to bring up our world leading level of obesity, heart disease, diabetes, hypertension, or hypercholesteremia.

Responsiveness: I agree the US should improve in these areas. A lot of this has to do with our broken emergency room system, where anyone with a runny nose without health insurance can walk in and take up time and resources away from actual medical emergencies.

Fair Financial contribution: Um what? I didn't realize our healthcare system was an equality contest. What does fair in this case even mean? My definition of fair is everyone pays proportional to what they consume in healthcare irregardless of income. In which case I'd say we rank #2 in my fairness rankings, right behind Singapore.
Point is, who ever is doing the study is going to set what their definition of "fair" is, and their definition is going to determine the rankings. Its a useless metric.

So anyways, I hope I've shown you that at least 75% of the WHO is completely useless. You want a real comparison of healthcare? Here you go.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct...48xnIaxD4Zz2MjSOiv2FotRQ&ust=1379898986253077

The Best Medical Schools In The World - Academic Ranking of World Universities Ranking