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Matthew Shepard Murdered By Bisexual Lover And Drug Dealer, Stephen Jimenez Claims In

Re: Matthew Shepard Murdered By Bisexual Lover And Drug Dealer, Stephen Jimenez Claim

Boo Radley said:
A young man was beat to death, and your largest concern is what you consider a meme? You're even disrespectful of this poor young man?

Look, I'm all for the truth, even if it it goes against me. But let's have some standards for accepting stories and let's not be disrespectful of dead folks. I've said that even for conservatives I've seriously disagreed with.
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Disrespect for the dead??

No, it's a disrespect for the truth that is being discussed here.
 
Re: Matthew Shepard Murdered By Bisexual Lover And Drug Dealer, Stephen Jimenez Claim

rocket88 said:
What matters isn't the media, it's how many times Democrats or Republicans do it. Don't fool yourself into thinking that Repubs don't.
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Yes, yes, they all do it. We know, we really, really know. Now, back to the topic?
 
Re: Matthew Shepard Murdered By Bisexual Lover And Drug Dealer, Stephen Jimenez Claim

sangha said:
Because his actions were motivated by a hatred of homosexuality

The police and the perp all say it was motivated by homophobia. So does the Advocate
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And all other drug related murders are a result of hatred of heterosexuality.
 
Re: Matthew Shepard Murdered By Bisexual Lover And Drug Dealer, Stephen Jimenez Claim

j-mac said:
No, I am not, this is a 15 year old crime, and I think it is deplorable that anyone die like that, and the persons responsible deserve the death penalty for what they did. But it wasn't a "hate crime"... We are discussing the narrative here, and how it was created on a lie. If that is too much for you, to discuss the agenda born out of this horrible crime, then all I can say is too bad.
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Whether it was a hate crime or not is debatable. As I told you back during WS days, killing someone is crime enough and don't support any special designation. Still, they did kill that young man. The rest is largely irrelevant.

And the Sarcasm of Saint Matthew was disrespectful. Sorry.


Not from what I see.
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Well, your view is often obscured. ;)
 
Re: Matthew Shepard Murdered By Bisexual Lover And Drug Dealer, Stephen Jimenez Claim

Grant said:
Disrespect for the dead??

No, it's a disrespect for the truth that is being discussed here.
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Hardly. Otherwise it would focus on facts and not questionable sources and sarcasm (Saint Matthew).
 
Re: Matthew Shepard Murdered By Bisexual Lover And Drug Dealer, Stephen Jimenez Claim

lizzie said:
Fascinating. I have always thought it a little hard to believe the narrative we were being fed about the case. I just found it hard to believe that people care enough about an individual's sexuality to do this for no other reason.
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Why was it hard to believe? That kind of homophobic attack is far from uncommon and, for some reason, appears to evoke the most violent and visceral of assaults. Here's just one more homophobic attack that became a homophobic murder.

Murder of Jody Dobrowski - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

While this new theory might be interesting, it certainly does not stop Matthew Shepard's murder from being a homophobic event. Homophobia is about the reason, and the sexuality of the victim. A screwed-up, self-denying bisexual is every bit as likely to commit acts of homophobic violence as a screwed-up, fag-hating straight guy. In fact, I'd suggest that a lot of the psychological impetus for most, if not all, homophobic attacks lies in the suppressed, latent homosexual desires of the attacker. Since I don't believe very many people at all are 100% straight or 100% gay in orientation, this new theory seems to change the essential nature of the event not one bit.
 
Re: Matthew Shepard Murdered By Bisexual Lover And Drug Dealer, Stephen Jimenez Claim

Boo Radley said:
Hardly. Otherwise it would focus on facts and not questionable sources and sarcasm (Saint Matthew).
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Questionable sources? Why not concern yourself with the facts instead?

St. Mathew is hardly an exaggeration after all the publicity about him, It certainly is no big deal. You're just being terribly oversensitive/
 
Re: Matthew Shepard Murdered By Bisexual Lover And Drug Dealer, Stephen Jimenez Claim

Grant said:
And all other drug related murders are a result of hatred of heterosexuality.
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Can you explain the "gay panic" defense used in court?
 
Re: Matthew Shepard Murdered By Bisexual Lover And Drug Dealer, Stephen Jimenez Claim

Andalublue said:
Why was it hard to believe? That kind of homophobic attack is far from uncommon and, for some reason, appears to evoke the most violent and visceral of assaults. Here's just one more homophobic attack that became a homophobic murder.
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Actually its uncommonality is what made the story so newsworthy.

While this new theory might be interesting, it certainly does not stop Matthew Shepard's murder from being a homophobic event. Homophobia is about the reason, and the sexuality of the victim. A screwed-up, self-denying bisexual is every bit as likely to commit acts of homophobic violence as a screwed-up, fag-hating straight guy. In fact, I'd suggest that a lot of the psychological impetus for most, if not all, homophobic attacks lies in the suppressed, latent homosexual desires of the attacker. Since I don't believe very many people at all are 100% straight or 100% gay in orientation, this new theory seems to change the essential nature of the event not one bit.
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It seems your personally held beliefs have little to do with this murder. Anyone can commit a murder and the reasons are as varied as the people involved.

I'm in full support of Gay Rights but don't have to be lied to in order to maintain that support.
 
Re: Matthew Shepard Murdered By Bisexual Lover And Drug Dealer, Stephen Jimenez Claim

There is a truth that whether or not this case was a lie, the fundamentalist religious forces of the christian right have made systematic efforts to harm the gay community out of spite and malice. One case of discrimination being wrong does not make the rest of them wrong. If the whole idea that this was a anti-gay attack is wrong, the people behind bars still seemed to have killed the kid. So i am not terribly bothered by them being in jail over some drug violence which could have been avoided if we did not have crazy drug laws fueling violence. There is one thing for sure, the people whining about a false narrative will now seize upon this opportunity to make another false narrative of their own that gay rights issues are invalid because of this. Two wrong do make a right wing right.

If this book does happen to be correct which seems based on anonymous reporting and accounts that might be manufactured by people who see the murderers as heroes, then it is just a reason to seek out the truth rather than simply trying to manufacture something to promote your goals. The truth is out there about anti-gay violence, the destruction of gay people's lives through prejudicial policies on hiring and living, and the spiteful denial of happiness and benefits to gay couples through banning of gay marriage. If they made stuff up they did not have to do that as there are many instances of these things going on. It really makes no difference about the greater issue if this is true or not, but the republicans are about to have a field day with this and use it to go up against the rising acceptance of gays. I am hoping it is a bit to little and a bit too late for all of that. When the wave of right wing propaganda hits it may backfire on them and show more people the sort of petty and hateful people they are. People are not accepting gays because of matthew shephard. They are accepting them because they have met them and are recognizing most of them are good people just trying to live their lives and be happy. The right wing had better be careful on how they handle this because the righteous heavy handed bible thumping methods they love to employ may only hurt them.
 
Re: Matthew Shepard Murdered By Bisexual Lover And Drug Dealer, Stephen Jimenez Claim

Deuce said:
Can you explain the "gay panic" defense used in court?
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I am not saying this book is true, but that is pretty easy to explain. Let us say it is true. Shephard was brutally murdered to send a message due to drug violence. Not out of the ordinary when dealing with drug crimes, and people who may have been taking meth. The two guys were caught. Their lawyer realized they were guilty and about to go to jail, and it was public knowledge this kid was gay. Way back then the massive prejudice against gays opened the door for the use of gay panic as a way for the lawyer to excuse the crime or to mitigate the punishment. It is the same thing as saying a black guy came up to me and I was afraid so I shot. It plays on public prejudices and fears and it was probably their best hope considering they were guilty, and may have influenced a jury. it seems even the book doesn't claim they were innocent, just that the reason was wrong. Unless i missed something in the articles.
 
Re: Matthew Shepard Murdered By Bisexual Lover And Drug Dealer, Stephen Jimenez Claim

tererun said:
There is a truth that whether or not this case was a lie, the fundamentalist religious forces of the christian right have made systematic efforts to harm the gay community out of spite and malice. One case of discrimination being wrong does not make the rest of them wrong. If the whole idea that this was a anti-gay attack is wrong, the people behind bars still seemed to have killed the kid. So i am not terribly bothered by them being in jail over some drug violence which could have been avoided if we did not have crazy drug laws fueling violence. There is one thing for sure, the people whining about a false narrative will now seize upon this opportunity to make another false narrative of their own that gay rights issues are invalid because of this. Two wrong do make a right wing right.

If this book does happen to be correct which seems based on anonymous reporting and accounts that might be manufactured by people who see the murderers as heroes, then it is just a reason to seek out the truth rather than simply trying to manufacture something to promote your goals. The truth is out there about anti-gay violence, the destruction of gay people's lives through prejudicial policies on hiring and living, and the spiteful denial of happiness and benefits to gay couples through banning of gay marriage. If they made stuff up they did not have to do that as there are many instances of these things going on. It really makes no difference about the greater issue if this is true or not, but the republicans are about to have a field day with this and use it to go up against the rising acceptance of gays. I am hoping it is a bit to little and a bit too late for all of that. When the wave of right wing propaganda hits it may backfire on them and show more people the sort of petty and hateful people they are. People are not accepting gays because of matthew shephard. They are accepting them because they have met them and are recognizing most of them are good people just trying to live their lives and be happy. The right wing had better be careful on how they handle this because the righteous heavy handed bible thumping methods they love to employ may only hurt them.
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:doh: There is so much fail in this one post, I don't know even where to start.....Aw forget it.
 
Re: Matthew Shepard Murdered By Bisexual Lover And Drug Dealer, Stephen Jimenez Claim

j-mac said:
:doh: There is so much fail in this one post, I don't know even where to start.....Aw forget it.
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In other words you didn't like it but couldn't come up with a reason it was wrong. Thanks for letting me know, but i pretty much had that figured out.
 
Re: Matthew Shepard Murdered By Bisexual Lover And Drug Dealer, Stephen Jimenez Claim

tererun said:
In other words you didn't like it but couldn't come up with a reason it was wrong. Thanks for letting me know, but i pretty much had that figured out.
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More like it is so wrong, and knowing how you approach opposition, it is a waste of time to dismantle everything wrong with it. :2wave:
 
Re: Matthew Shepard Murdered By Bisexual Lover And Drug Dealer, Stephen Jimenez Claim

j-mac said:
More like it is so wrong, and knowing how you approach opposition, it is a waste of time to dismantle everything wrong with it. :2wave:
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So in other words I am right and you still have no actual rebuttal. You can keep on saying it, but we know the truth.
 
Re: Matthew Shepard Murdered By Bisexual Lover And Drug Dealer, Stephen Jimenez Claim

tererun said:
So in other words I am right and you still have no actual rebuttal. You can keep on saying it, but we know the truth.
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You keep thinking that :lamo :laughat: tererun
 
Re: Matthew Shepard Murdered By Bisexual Lover And Drug Dealer, Stephen Jimenez Claim

Grant said:
Questionable sources? Why not concern yourself with the facts instead?

St. Mathew is hardly an exaggeration after all the publicity about him, It certainly is no big deal. You're just being terribly oversensitive/
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I admit I don't like the tone. Like I said, I never have when someone talks smart ass about someone dead.

As for the source, just because someone says doesn't mean it's true. We don't accept until proven otherwise. We doubt until proven true. What's here isn't proof. Not even decent evidence. We need much more.
 
Re: Matthew Shepard Murdered By Bisexual Lover And Drug Dealer, Stephen Jimenez Claim

TheNextEra said:
Let's say we take what you say as the truth and they did lie.

So you're saying that ALL gay people knowingly lie and therefore people shouldn't believe ANYTHING a gay person says. Are you really going that route?
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LOL. You don't really think that every gay person supports the gay special rights groups do you?

Really weak attempt at putting words in my mouth. Try harder next time.

However, those that support gay special rights groups, I don't believe anything they say. Either the people speaking for such groups or their useful idiots that just lap up anything and everything they say. They already admit they don't mind telling lies so why would any serious person believe them? Are you really going to vouch for the integrity of self admitted liars?
 
Re: Matthew Shepard Murdered By Bisexual Lover And Drug Dealer, Stephen Jimenez Claim

tererun said:
So in other words I am right and you still have no actual rebuttal. You can keep on saying it, but we know the truth.
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j-mac said:
You keep thinking that :lamo :laughat: tererun
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Hmm, who to believe? Based on past records on gay topics, I'm probably going with the one who perhaps didn't agree with the murder of Matthew Shepard. Tere wins.
 
Re: Matthew Shepard Murdered By Bisexual Lover And Drug Dealer, Stephen Jimenez Claim

Andalublue said:
Hmm, who to believe? Based on past records on gay topics, I'm probably going with the one who perhaps didn't agree with the murder of Matthew Shepard. Tere wins.
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Are you saying that I agree with the murder of Matthew Shepard? Where did I say anything even close? I think you need to retract that bit of vitriolic bull ****!
 
Re: Matthew Shepard Murdered By Bisexual Lover And Drug Dealer, Stephen Jimenez Claim

ItAin'tFree said:
LOL. You don't really think that every gay person supports the gay special rights groups do you?
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Gay special rights groups? You seem to be suffering from the delusion that equality is a special right. However, if there were special rights like gays get to kill people or steal without punishment I am pretty sure a large number of gays would oppose them.
ItAin'tFree said:
Really weak attempt at putting words in my mouth. Try harder next time.
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Yeah, you were the one who put special in there and showed you are playing a dumb game of pretending discrimination and harassment are a right you have.
ItAin'tFree said:
However, those that support gay special rights groups, I don't believe anything they say. Either the people speaking for such groups or their useful idiots that just lap up anything and everything they say. They already admit they don't mind telling lies so why would any serious person believe them? Are you really going to vouch for the integrity of self admitted liars?
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Sorry dude, you have put your own words in your mouth here and shown yourse4lf to be an opponent of equality and a lover of religious law.
 
Re: Matthew Shepard Murdered By Bisexual Lover And Drug Dealer, Stephen Jimenez Claim

I truly believed that there more to this story then the press put out..........Sounds like a lovers quarrel went bad.
 
Matthew Shepard Murdered By Bisexual Lover And Drug Dealer, Stephen Jimenez C...

The comments all get to be rather silly. IF the book is correct (a book researched and written by a man that happens to BE gay) then the narrative of the ACTUAL incident went from "man brutally murdered by his occasional lover over a drug related incident" to "gay victim brutally murdered by homophobic heterosexuals...lets build a monument and champion this cause!" And the responses here? 1-author must be lying and/or 2-so what if it was all a lie used to create a cause...it still happens to other homosexuals.

So what if it was all a lie.

And in case you miss just how inane that sounds...

So what if it was all a lie.
 
Re: Matthew Shepard Murdered By Bisexual Lover And Drug Dealer, Stephen Jimenez C...

VanceMack said:
The comments all get to be rather silly. IF the book is correct (a book researched and written by a man that happens to BE gay) then the narrative of the ACTUAL incident went from "man brutally murdered by his occasional lover over a drug related incident" to "gay victim brutally murdered by homophobic heterosexuals...lets build a monument and champion this cause!" And the responses here? 1-author must be lying and/or 2-so what if it was all a lie used to create a cause...it still happens to other homosexuals.

So what if it was all a lie.

And in case you miss just how inane that sounds...

So what if it was all a lie.
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#2 is really "closeted bisexual drug dealer murders gay man and tries to get off by playing to the homophobia of the public and jury with a 'gay panic' defense - a defense a gay jurist would not buy"
 
Re: Matthew Shepard Murdered By Bisexual Lover And Drug Dealer, Stephen Jimenez C...

sangha said:
#2 is really "closeted bisexual drug dealer murders gay man and tries to get off by playing to the homophobia of the public and jury with a 'gay panic' defense - a defense a gay jurist would not buy"
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OK...STILL not the narrative the nation was sold...but OK...I can see that.
 
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