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US Police arrest Florida pastor

TheNextEra said:
Ok, so let's lay out all the cards on the table.

#1. Those religious fanatics you are so worried about are burning our flag all the time correct?

#2. You think we should be worried about "fueling" the hatred those religious fanatics feel about us correct?

Now, can you point out the problem? Do you think that by not burning those Islamic books that somehow they will magically stop hating us? Or is this just an excuse to try and appease radical Islam. If those "religious fanatics" don't care about burning our flag, why should I give two shakes of a piss care about someone burning their books?
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i am more worried that a video of a American burning the Koran would be used by radical Islamist as part of their propaganda of us being the "great satan" and would make moderate Muslims more likely to support the Islamic fundamentalists against what the fundamentalists portray as the great enemy.

and let us not forget that Islam is the second largest religion on earth, and the only religion that has more followers than Islam is Catholicism.
 
sangha said:
So the pastor has the freedom of speech to burn books, but we don't have the freedom to criticize him for burning books?
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Of course you have the right to criticize, and I have the right to ask why you are criticizing. Is it the equivalent when people burn Bibles or flags? Do you think those forms of symbolic expression should be outlawed?
 
Unitedwestand13 said:
i am more worried that a video of a American burning the Koran would be used by radical Islamist as part of their propaganda of us being the "great satan" and would make moderate Muslims more likely to support the Islamic fundamentalists against what the fundamentalists portray as the great enemy.

and let us not forget that Islam is the second largest religion on earth, and the only religion that has more followers than Islam is Catholicism.
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No matter WHAT we do they will use it as propaganda for us being the "Great Satan". Hell our freedoms that we have are used against us in that, so what difference does a book burning make? I'll give you a hint, nothing. If it's not a book, it's freedoms. If it isn't freedoms it is something else. They will ALWAYS find SOMETHING to hate us for no matter what.

If you want to give up freedoms and live in fear, move to Europe is all I can suggest. I would rather die protecting OUR freedoms, than live under THEIR oppression.
 
Unitedwestand13 said:
i am more worried that a video of a American burning the Koran would be used by radical Islamist as part of their propaganda of us being the "great satan" and would make moderate Muslims more likely to support the Islamic fundamentalists against what the fundamentalists portray as the great enemy.

and let us not forget that Islam is the second largest religion on earth, and the only religion that has more followers than Islam is Catholicism.
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This is exactly what Ben Franklin was referring to. :roll: Giving up certain freedom of expression due to fear of retaliation.
 
TheNextEra said:
No matter WHAT we do they will use it as propaganda for us being the "Great Satan". Hell our freedoms that we have are used against us in that, so what difference does a book burning make? I'll give you a hint, nothing. If it's not a book, it's freedoms. If it isn't freedoms it is something else. They will ALWAYS find SOMETHING to hate us for no matter what.

If you want to give up freedoms and live in fear, move to Europe is all I can suggest. I would rather die protecting OUR freedoms, than live under THEIR oppression.
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I don't understand why anyone would think otherwise. We cannot appease them. There will always be something about us that they hate.

That is why some people have no fear of mocking Christianity but they are absolutely TERRIFIED whenever someone mocks Islam. We should never limit our freedoms out of fear of this particular religion.

Remember a few years back, the huge international big deal that was made out of the South Park episode that was supposed going to depict Muhammed?

Really great post BTW! :) Totally agree.
 
Dr. Chuckles said:
No, criticism of a religion is well established to be within first amendment doctrine. Yes, because people are able to criticize ideas and ideologies here, and even do and say things that you disagree with.
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I have ZERO problem with Terry being a loud mouth smuck. I have ZERO problem with his opinion of Islam.

But I have ZERO tolerance for someone desecrating other people's religious objects breaking the law while doing so. From pissing on a crucifix to this, if the culprit so much as litters grab 'em up.

I realize some don't see a difference but to me there is a difference between talking and doing. Terry can criticize all he wants- book burning is beyond that.
 
I hate to see someone disrespect the flag, I am even an American legion member and have been for about 20 years. But I understand as an American they have every right to do it. Just as Maplethorpe and Terry, as much as I hate it, they have the right.
notquiteright said:
I have ZERO problem with Terry being a loud mouth smuck. I have ZERO problem with his opinion of Islam.

But I have ZERO tolerance for someone desecrating other people's religious objects breaking the law while doing so. From pissing on a crucifix to this, if the culprit so much as litters grab 'em up.

I realize some don't see a difference but to me there is a difference between talking and doing. Terry can criticize all he wants- book burning is beyond that.
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CanadaJohn said:
Absolutely - just as people respect the rights of Muslim clerics who speak in the most vile of terms about Jews, Christians and other "infidels". Usually, the difference is that when Muslim clerics and their followers speak out, most other people simply ignore their ignorance and get on with their lives, however, when someone speaks out in an ignorant way about Muslims, those Muslims like to burn synagogs, churches and other buildings, beat people in the street, kidnap and behead those who spoke the words, etc.
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Wait we are talking about actions in the USofA- when did any Muslims burn down a synagogue in the USofA? Or a church?

I recall a bunch of Christians protesting a Muslim Cultural Center near ground zero, but can't recall a Bible Burning done in Toledo...

I'd say most people do look past the ignorance some Muslims engage in while some drag every last scrap of it they can on in here.
 
mak2 said:
I hate to see someone disrespect the flag, I am even an American legion member and have been for about 20 years. But I understand as an American they have every right to do it. Just as Maplethorpe and Terry, as much as I hate it, they have the right.
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I agree up until I see the sidearm or the venue for the burn. I have no problem with the police arresting a flag burner carrying a firearm where it is prohibited. Expressing your 1st A right still has limits- in the Terry case it is clear he violated the law not by the actual protest but where, how and what he was carrying while exercising his right to free speech.
 
Higgins86 said:
I'm glad that an idiot wasn't allowed to burn thousands of religious texts and by doing so endanger nato soldiers in Afghan. Yes I'm very glad
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So you are comfortable smooching the assholes of terrorists. Good for you.
 
lolabird said:
Are you pulling from your a-- to start and maintain controversy?
Answer your own question.
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So, you opt for complete hypocrisy. Duly noted.

You favor eliminating free speech when it is one crazy Christian hating on Muslims, but see no problem with countless Muslims hating on Jews or Christians.
 
Arresting him for the tranpostation of kerosene adn the firearm is very appropriate, and I think he planned that for the Fox news reporters and days of publicity in the RW blogoshpere.
notquiteright said:
I agree up until I see the sidearm or the venue for the burn. I have no problem with the police arresting a flag burner carrying a firearm where it is prohibited. Expressing your 1st A right still has limits- in the Terry case it is clear he violated the law not by the actual protest but where, how and what he was carrying while exercising his right to free speech.
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Higgins86 said:
Pastor arrested before he could burn Qurans


Glad they could stop this dickhead before he cost more life's.
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I read into this thread, and just don't agree with your view.

It wouldn't have been *his fault* if *they responded* negatively. . . it would have been *their fault* for being total freaking idiots and willing to kill each other over what someone does with a freaking book.

They want to flip out and not care, cause a riot and kill each other - that's their ridiculous problem.

They are responsible for their own actions.

Hold the people who do the killing at fault for THEIR OWN emotions and out of control actions. Every time they do it 'in the name of their belief' they give people another legitimate reason to oppose their 'faith' - and that's their own damned fault, their own damned choice.

They're throwing them selves on the ground and demanding all sorts of things be done - and you're just wanting the entire world to give in, do whatever it takes to appease the bully.

Do you honestly think the bully is going to stop being the bully if we give them everything they want? WWII - the Bully was Germany, and the appeasement didn't end well.
 
Higgins86 said:
Pastor arrested before he could burn Qurans


Glad they could stop this dickhead before he cost more life's.
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Hopefully next time he burns the korans first and the posts a video of it. IF some guy wants to burn a bunch of books thats his business, I am sure the bookstores will appreciate his business. Had this guy been burning bibles I do not think the terrorist salad tossers would be saying he can't burn those bibles it would anger Christians.
 
notquiteright said:
Wait we are talking about actions in the USofA- when did any Muslims burn down a synagogue in the USofA? Or a church?

I recall a bunch of Christians protesting a Muslim Cultural Center near ground zero, but can't recall a Bible Burning done in Toledo...

I'd say most people do look past the ignorance some Muslims engage in while some drag every last scrap of it they can on in here.
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Sorry, but we're talking about trying to restict a person in the USA burning qurans because muslims will attack American troops and others in other parts of the world. Are you aware of any other religious group issuing a fatwa calling for the death of all members of another religious group or specifically an individual deemed to have insulted their spiritual leader?

Let's not play games and pretend all are equal in the way they treat those outside their faith or with no religious affiliation at all.
 
Aunt Spiker said:
I read into this thread, and just don't agree with your view.

It wouldn't have been *his fault* if *they responded* negatively. . . it would have been *their fault* for being total freaking idiots and willing to kill each other over what someone does with a freaking book.

l.
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The argument reminds me of the one people offer up saying women are responsible for being raped. It transfers responsibility so as to align with the perpetrator.

You want incitement? How about that damn Lee Rigby fellow. If he hadn't been a white Brit who had the audacity to appear in public wearing a uniform, none of the brave people who tried to decapitate him would have been incited into action. and what is it about Britain allowing all those Jews to run around freely? What's with that,anyway. Everybody knows being a Jew is like waving a red flag in front of these people, so the only sensible thing to do would be to eliminate the provocation, right?
 
mak2 said:
Come on, transporting 3000 books soaked in a flammable liquid on the highway is stupid. Otherwise I would be all for him practicing his free speech, no matter how stupid.
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Sounds like an episode of CHiPs
 
Montecresto said:
Because of what you say, I don't think he should have been prevented from doing this, if that's what the timely arrest turns out to be. But then again, free speech doesn't allow one to yell fire in a crowded theatre. And sense this could have a similar effect, meaning people could be harmed or worse as a result of him exercising his free speech............................??
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Should peoplke be arrested for saying they are going to draw a comic of Mohammad?

People have been killed overt hat too.
 
:lamo "Hey Ponch, what the hell is this? 3000 books soaked in kerosene in a barbacue grill?"

Sometime the real world can be stranger than TV.
 
mak2 said:
:lamo "Hey Ponch, what the hell is this? 3000 books soaked in kerosene in a barbacue grill?"

Sometime the real world can be stranger than TV.
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Well you know if it happened, Poinch would have dirtied his uniform while Jon would have come out clean as a whistle.
 
Captain Adverse said:
I would refer you (and anyone else who might have missed it buried behind page one) to this post I provided on the subject.

http://www.debatepolitics.com/break...e-arrest-florida-pastor-6.html#post1062305979

As I provide legal analysis and state in that post, I believe the symbolic "book burning" is protected Free Speech, and had the municipality merely granted the requested permits there would be no issue today. :)
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I always wondered why you called yourself Captain Adverse ;)

I read it but it doesn't really address my point. My point is not what the beliefs were that motivated his actions but his actions. He was knowingly choosing to do something that could cause harm to many people. Not just people present at the book burning, but Americans abroad. Not to mention the fact the he was denied his permits and knowingly broke the law by attempting to burn the books without them.
 
Higgins86 said:
Because it incites hatred and puts lives at risk...
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Soif people reacted poorly to gays kissing on the street that would be enough justification to legally limit it? Just think of the larger implications of your argument: you want to limit reasonable activity that harms no one because the overreaction of ****s.
 
opendebate said:
So if anyone cares to respond feel free. There are limitations to our rights aren't there? That whole "fire in crowded room" thing. If someone has stated that they intend to do harm and you catch them in the act (kerosene soaked books and firearm in hand) it seems like the kind of incident that would limit your rights.

Since the time of ancient republics rights have been understood to have legal limits. The Magna Carta, the English Bill of Rights, and the Massachusetts Body of Liberties all set limits on rights.

Citizens also have the responsibility to exercise their rights within reasonable limits that do not abridge the equal freedom of others.

Bill of Rights Institute: Limits on Rights | Bill of Rights Institute

I am honestly just looking for an intelligent conversation about this not a street fight. I am torn on this issue.
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this was already addressed

http://www.debatepolitics.com/break...e-arrest-florida-pastor-6.html#post1062305899

PS and no, there is no inherent harm in burning books, and people so not have a right to be free from offense
 
opendebate said:
I always wondered why you called yourself Captain Adverse ;)

I read it but it doesn't really address my point. My point is not what the beliefs were that motivated his actions but his actions. He was knowingly choosing to do something that could cause harm to many people. Not just people present at the book burning, but Americans abroad. Not to mention the fact the he was denied his permits and knowingly broke the law by attempting to burn the books without them.
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I think his motivations are irrelevant to the essential issue, since all people who protest are seeking to be seen, heard, and reacted to.

As I stated in that analysis one's freedom of expression should not be limited simply because someone else might get angry and react with violence. The fact that they might should not be a deterrent, because then THEY control what is and is not Free Speech simply by threat and violence.

The radical fundamentalists (of both sides) are inherently reactionary. Those who would be offended by the actions taken in the story (had they been permitted) are the same people who already burn flags, bibles, and kill American citizens. They have no moral high ground from which to condemn the actions of this protestor.

It seems evident that he was denied the permits specifically because of the date he wished to conduct the protest on, "9/11." So now, because foreign fundamentalists might react to a protest of their assault on our nation because they are offended by a symbolic book burning...we must be careful on THAT date NOT to further offend THEM? If you accept this limitation then they now control how we can demonstrate on the date of OUR national tragedy.

Freedom of expression (speech or otherwise) is one of our fundamental rights. Unless the speaker is clearly inciting "immediate violence," as in the example I gave in the post I directed you to, he should be free to express his point as he wishes.
 
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