• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Putin's Message to Obama

So Libya was a success? Man, if that success, I'd hate to see failure. Anyway, there's no question that Putin is a sack of ****.
 
Putin will never be in favor of UN actions against a country's leader for crimes against the leader's own people. To do so would put himself in jeopardy of equal reprisals.
 
Putin will never be in favor of UN actions against a country's leader for crimes against the leader's own people. To do so would put himself in jeopardy of equal reprisals.

Why? Just be a belligerent like the US and deny the authority of the ICC!
 
No bad actor would!
 
Putin will never be in favor of UN actions against a country's leader for crimes against the leader's own people. To do so would put himself in jeopardy of equal reprisals.

Good morning, CJ. :2wave:

I am not a Putin admirer by a long shot, but I was amazed and pleased to read that he was urging restraint on this Syria mess, instead of using a hard line offense. He went on record by suggesting that everyone wait to see what the UN investigation found. From reading both the posts on DP, plus many comments people have made in our local newspaper, it appears that most of the American people agree with him! Seems even our opponents can sometimes make a good point! :thumbs:
 
Good morning, CJ. :2wave:

I am not a Putin admirer by a long shot, but I was amazed and pleased to read that he was urging restraint on this Syria mess, instead of using a hard line offense. He went on record by suggesting that everyone wait to see what the UN investigation found. From reading both the posts on DP, plus many comments people have made in our local newspaper, it appears that most of the American people agree with him! Seems even our opponents can sometimes make a good point! :thumbs:

Good morning Lady P - hope all is well with you.

I'd say Putin may believe in the same desired outcomes here that the majority of American people favor but for entirely different reasons.

If you want to really know what's behind this, I'd say it's Obama's lack of diplomacy and respect for Russia and Putin in the Snowden matter as well as Obama's cancelling of the two leaders's private sit-down during this week's G20 meeting in St. Petersburg. Putin is now sticking it to Obama.
 
Good morning Lady P - hope all is well with you.

I'd say Putin may believe in the same desired outcomes here that the majority of American people favor but for entirely different reasons.

If you want to really know what's behind this, I'd say it's Obama's lack of diplomacy and respect for Russia and Putin in the Snowden matter as well as Obama's cancelling of the two leaders's private sit-down during this week's G20 meeting in St. Petersburg. Putin is now sticking it to Obama.

"Turn about is fair play."
 
Notice the imperial attitude of all these world leaders in how they address each other. Putin is no longer addressing the United States, but Obama.

Obama is not the King of the U.S. Our Congress runs the show. It's not about what Obama wants, it's about what our Congress votes as being ok action to take.

I'm not exactly sure where you developed the idea that Congress runs the show. We are not a parliamentary form of government. In theory our branches of government are somewhat co-equal in power (checks and balances), though each has a specific function. In practice, we (the People) have allowed the Imperial Presidency to thrive, particularly since the 1980's.

Unitary executive theory - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Obama Embraces the Imperial Presidency | National Review Online
Ronald Reagan and Executive Power | Executive Power and the Contemporary Presidency
Growth of Presidential Power
 
Good morning Lady P - hope all is well with you.

I'd say Putin may believe in the same desired outcomes here that the majority of American people favor but for entirely different reasons.

If you want to really know what's behind this, I'd say it's Obama's lack of diplomacy and respect for Russia and Putin in the Snowden matter as well as Obama's cancelling of the two leaders's private sit-down during this week's G20 meeting in St. Petersburg. Putin is now sticking it to Obama.

I never thought I'd see Putin as a smart statesman on the world stage! He ignored snubs by BHO while urging restraint on a much larger problem which could affect the entire Mideast. :wow:
 
Good morning Lady P - hope all is well with you.

I'd say Putin may believe in the same desired outcomes here that the majority of American people favor but for entirely different reasons.

If you want to really know what's behind this, I'd say it's Obama's lack of diplomacy and respect for Russia and Putin in the Snowden matter as well as Obama's cancelling of the two leaders's private sit-down during this week's G20 meeting in St. Petersburg. Putin is now sticking it to Obama.

For me, Putin's reasons for being right are irrelevant if it goes the distance in avoiding MORE carnage in Syria due to US bombing power.
 
I'm not exactly sure where you developed the idea that Congress runs the show. We are not a parliamentary form of government. In theory our branches of government are somewhat co-equal in power (checks and balances), though each has a specific function. In practice, we (the People) have allowed the Imperial Presidency to thrive, particularly since the 1980's.

Unitary executive theory - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Obama Embraces the Imperial Presidency | National Review Online
Ronald Reagan and Executive Power | Executive Power and the Contemporary Presidency
Growth of Presidential Power

Totally correct. We have the worlds best disguised dictatorship, one with a rotating seat.
 
For me, Putin's reasons for being right are irrelevant if it goes the distance in avoiding MORE carnage in Syria due to US bombing power.

Nothing's going to stop the carnage in Syria, whether the US intervenes or not - that's why it's now a bad idea to get involved - two years ago, when the US could have made a difference, was the time to get involved but Obama was busy golfing. Now that there are so many divergent interests involved and proxies for other countries in the region, this will not end well or soon. Add to that the Baathist in charge, a minority in the country like Sadaam's ruling party in Iraq, and you have a bunch of "bitter enders" in charge who would rather die destroying the country than surrender and die at that hands of those who take over.
 
Nothing's going to stop the carnage in Syria, whether the US intervenes or not - that's why it's now a bad idea to get involved - two years ago, when the US could have made a difference, was the time to get involved but Obama was busy golfing. Now that there are so many divergent interests involved and proxies for other countries in the region, this will not end well or soon. Add to that the Baathist in charge, a minority in the country like Sadaam's ruling party in Iraq, and you have a bunch of "bitter enders" in charge who would rather die destroying the country than surrender and die at that hands of those who take over.

CJ, why don't you see if you can get the CRMP to take on this job you see as necessary?
 
Gath, all the discrediting examples you point to on Russia equally apply to the US with its selective outrage of human rights abuses!!

Putin IS correct in the video clip.

Well you certainly fell for it. Did you not? :)

He is not correct entirely in that clip. What he does is use some of correct terms and posits himself not far from those terms so as to sound more true worthy.

He know that USA and NATO is stretched with campaigns in: Bosnia, Dardania, Avghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Egypt, etc. Some troops have been deployed ever since the 1990's. He knows that the struggle to maintain democracy there is ongoing and that people have started thinking maybe's (i.e., maybe it was a bad idea, maybe they should discussed it more, etc).

So knowing this he does not claims something more of a distance he goes on saying that they have all (except Dardania) failed. It would not suite his purpose to mention that Dardania the Muslim country entirely benefited from the NATO airstrike and military presence. Same could be said for Bosnia. But he mentions these other areas where the struggle is still on.

So this is the damnest lie because it sounds soo near reality, yet it is not. Nothing has failed. It is still a struggle, a continuity. It takes more cognitive effort to separate where reality is and where he says he is, how near they are, and how a world a difference Putin's RT and our media mean.
 
CJ, why don't you see if you can get the CRMP to take on this job you see as necessary?

I don't see any job as necessary now, nor do I see the RCMP, perhaps the equivalent of your ATF, but basically a federal police force, as having a role in Syria.

Perhaps that was a slag at Canada's military - I'm not aware of the American military having a poor view of the Canadian military and the people who serve in it.

Canada does not claim to be the world's only superpower - nor does Canada claim to be the world's morality master - That seems to be America's self appointed job. Canada doesn't have the weaponry that the American military is proposing be used in a limited manner now, in Syria - it's why Canada has said it will not participate. But if you think Canada hasn't been at America's side in many of its interventions in the world, you're not paying attention.
 
The French are broke and likely see this as a chance to get a much needed infusion of U.S. cash for spendning a minor amount of it on "helping" the U.S. blow stuff up in Syria. ;)

Yeah, and it is the Frnech that have filed 5 Actionable Action Resolutions in the UN.....the same who say they don't need no stinking badges to go into another Sovereign Country.
 
I don't see any job as necessary now, nor do I see the RCMP, perhaps the equivalent of your ATF, but basically a federal police force, as having a role in Syria.

Perhaps that was a slag at Canada's military - I'm not aware of the American military having a poor view of the Canadian military and the people who serve in it.

Canada does not claim to be the world's only superpower - nor does Canada claim to be the world's morality master - That seems to be America's self appointed job. Canada doesn't have the weaponry that the American military is proposing be used in a limited manner now, in Syria - it's why Canada has said it will not participate. But if you think Canada hasn't been at America's side in many of its interventions in the world, you're not paying attention.


No! No slag whatsoever on your military, I know nothing of them. It was more a tongue in cheek comment. Mainly just to say, let Canada handle it. We're sick of war, we're broke and we REALLY need to set this out. Can you make that happen bud? Oh, and you are correct, America does make those foolish claims. I wish that chest thumping would end.
 
No! No slag whatsoever on your military, I know nothing of them. It was more a tongue in cheek comment. Mainly just to say, let Canada handle it. We're sick of war, we're broke and we REALLY need to set this out. Can you make that happen bud? Oh, and you are correct, America does make those foolish claims. I wish that chest thumping would end.

It's easy to sit this one out now, and you should. No good can come from any half-assed "teaching a lesson" to Assad. If you're not prepared to invade and take over, best to just let the actors in the region fight it out and when they get tired, set up relations with whomever remains standing.
 
GHWB was a senior administrator, political appointed manager, not an operative like Putin was. That's the difference.

I still see no difference. The time line of CIA atrocities is exceedingly lengthy, and he was their director for a period. And lets not forget about his father!
 
My response is simply this...if you don't like the messenger simply superimpose the face of someone you'd find more appealing and still listen to the message.

Everything he has stated is rational, reasonable, and responsible. Trying to undermine the message with fallacious comparisons simply because the messenger is a political opponent is disingenuous.

If there is actual evidence then our duty is to reveal it. Claiming how it was obtained is a secret, therefore we can't show it demands we grant our government a level of trust it has yet to prove itself worthy of. Basically, our government lies to us ALL THE TIME!

It is also true that the Syrian government has requested investigation of the incident, so why must we act militarily before such an investigation by NEUTRAL parties is concluded?

Finally, it is also true that we will inevitably cause "collateral damage" among the civilian population. Strange that we'd think ourselves morally justified to cause such harm on the grounds that such harm has already been caused.

It is irrelevent that the message comes from Putin, it is still a valid message nonetheless.

Fair enough. However, one must ultimately remember that the situation in question does not exist within any kind of political or international vacuum.

We ultimately have to ask ourselves just what it is exactly that Putin's Russia (as well as Iran, China, North Korea, and any number of other authoritarian governments which happen to be opposed to our interests) ultimately have to gain here by preventing the United States from toppling Assad's regime. Backing down from a confrontation in Syria now could very well destroy what little international credibility the Obama Administration has left, and encourage nations like Iran and North Korea to behave more boldly without fear of repercussion.

After all, what possible basis could we be said to have for criticizing nuclear weapons testing in any nation if we allow Bashar Assad to use chemical weapons on his people with more or less total impunity?

Putin has absolutely no problem with any of these scenarios, simply because breaking back of Western global power in general, and American global hegemony in particular, has been one of his foremost goals basically since day one of his administration.

If you were to find yourself lost in the woods on a stormy night, and a seemingly friendly bear happened along and made a very reasonable argument for why it would probably be a good idea to spend the night in his cave, sheltered from the elements, would you not be more than a little apprehensive about taking him up on it?

Needless to say, it is entirely possible for someone to say exactly the right things for all of the wrong reasons. :lol:

Perhaps because we, all of us are peaceful people. We do not want war even if it is already occurring. We may want to avoid it and would rather accept a peaceful lie than a required truthful ugly war.

All too true, unfortunately.

It'd be a shame if the modern Western World were to ultimately wind up repeating the mistakes of such historical wet blankets as Neville Chamberlain in our quest for "peace" uber alles.
 
Last edited:
Putin will never be in favor of UN actions against a country's leader for crimes against the leader's own people. To do so would put himself in jeopardy of equal reprisals.

Correct. He'll also never be able to resist an act that he feels would embarrass the US and will happily take every chance he can to strike at the heart of the US-Russia rivalry.

Granting temporary asylum to Edward Snowden is a very good example of that.
 
Fair enough. However, one must ultimately remember that the situation in question does not exist within any kind of political or international vacuum.

We ultimately have to ask ourselves just what it is exactly that Putin's Russia (as well as Iran, China, North Korea, and any number of other authoritarian governments which happen to be opposed to our interests) ultimately have to gain here by preventing the United States from toppling Assad's regime. Backing down from a confrontation in Syria now could very well destroy what little international credibility the Obama Administration has left, and encourage nations like Iran and North Korea to behave more boldly without fear of repercussion.

It'd be a shame if the modern Western World were to ultimately wind up repeating the mistakes of such historical wet blankets as Neville Chamberlain in our quest for "peace" uber alles.

And if one were advocating "peace uber alles" you might be correct.

However, when one is advocating strong mutual alliances with like minded nations and exhibiting a willingness to adhere to the terms of such alliances, then most of your questions are answered.

So that's how you preceive the USA? A nation exerting an indirect form of government, and of imperial dominance in which we "The Hegemon" (leader state) rules geopolitically subordinate states by the implied means of power, the threat of force, rather than by direct military force?

Apparently this is beginning to require the ever more frequent application of "direct force" from time to time as well. Our subjects appear to be getting more and more unruly.

Much of this kind of thought comes from the understandible pride we have in our current status as the strongest military and economic power on earth. (Although our economic might seems to be falling a bit behind our military power.) Yet where have such policies gotten us? We are feared by some, hated by others, admired by some, despised by others...and still everyone has to stop and think "how will the USA respond if we do this or that?" Now I put it to YOU this way...how would YOU feel about any nation whose actions forced you to pause and think "how will the (place nation of choice) respond if we do this or that?"

In my mind the greatest respect goes to a nation that has the power to act militarily, but always seeks the best diplomatic solution to any problem. Thus reserving military intervention as the last, least acceptible option until all others have been exhausted. This does not mean appeasement because alliances are always respected. It merely means using all the other non-violent but still useful diplomatic tools in any nations arsenal: Mediation, aid, advice, trade sanctions, embargoes, etc.

That's my position. I don't believe we rule the world, and so I don't believe it is our place to act like we do.
 
Last edited:
If you were to find yourself lost in the woods on a stormy night, and a seemingly friendly bear happened along and made a very reasonable argument for why it would probably be a good idea to spend the night in his cave, sheltered from the elements, would you not be more than a little apprehensive about taking him up on it?

Needless to say, it is entirely possible for someone to say exactly the right things for all of the wrong reasons. :lol:

The stupidest part in this analogy is that the Bear has experience with many of people in similar religion! The stupidest part is that this is not a secret neither. Chechen are small people locked somewhere there in the back of that cave struggling to come out alive as we speak. The cave captured and ripped Afghanistan before. The Bear killed the Ottoman Empire. The Bears Serbian little kids caused us harm ever since the Ottoman Empire.

So the Bears reputation in treating people of this religion in unkindly terms is not a secret. Yet you have people considering entering it nevertheless...

The worst part in this, they will be crawling out of the cave without their wealth, clothes, skin, meat, and perhaps even vital organs. Just ugly bones begging for help, and then it would be up to us to do something about it!

If we do not then China might. How it would treat the ugly living bones that cry for help may not be as known for now.

All too true, unfortunately.

It'd be a shame if the modern Western World were to ultimately wind up repeating the mistakes of such historical wet blankets as Neville Chamberlain in our quest for "peace" uber alles.

Right, the Brit leader who came back with a signed document from Hitler that was suppose to mean that Hitler would abide by it. Having said that what you guys need is a good momentum.

Alternatively, I think all this fuss is just for Russia to ask something more from the Syrian conflict. I think Assad is going down one way or another. Just that him relying on Putin posits Putin to a better place to ask more from the G20 meeting that will come up.

It is trade fellas. More percentage for Putin's RT influencing this much in Assad.
 
Back
Top Bottom