• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Identical Twin Studies Prove Homosexuality is Not Genetic [W:212]

Re: Identical Twin Studies Prove Homosexuality is Not Genetic

Gaugingcatenate said:
Hmm...are you calling into question Lysander's knowledge? Insinuating that he does not really know what he is talking about? With that ALSO compounding the insinuation, right?
Click to expand...

His knowledge on THIS topic, sure. He can certainly address this by responding to my challenge.
 
Re: Identical Twin Studies Prove Homosexuality is Not Genetic

Ontologuy said:
False, obviously. :lol:

You simply whine about new scientific realities that conflict with your pre-conceived ideological agenda, nothing more. :roll:

Indeed, this thread's OP scientific link corroborates the epigenetic etiology of homosexuality, that homosexuality is not a genetic "variant", but a gestational epigenetic abnormality, i.e., a birth defect, like spina bifida and cleft palate.

These are the facts, CC, the scientific facts, that you continue to whine about in thread after thread.
Click to expand...

No, you have completely failed to prove your position. This has been shown in multiple threads by multiple posters. Your scientific links do not indicate "defect". You have been challenged to provide evidence of the "birth defect" but have refused.
 
Re: Identical Twin Studies Prove Homosexuality is Not Genetic

Ontologuy said:
Typical of ideologues (libertarian-left) you purposely play dumb to misconstrue the meaning of this thread's OP presentation with respect to the etiology of homosexuality I presented .. so that you can sling an ad hominem (homophobic) against the messenger of the scientific message that you perceive to be a threat to your ideological agenda. :roll:

The relevant fact to the point I made remains: the OP corroborates that there is no known genetic cause of homosexuality -- there's now not even a genetic cause suspected.

That corroborates the recent scientific presentation that homosexuality's etiology is indeed not genetic at all but is epigenetic, a gestational epigenetic abnormality, a birth defect.

Ideologues would do well to stop embarrassing themselves on the matter and instead pause for a moment to reflect what the birth defect reality of homosexuality means.

It means that bullying will be greatly reduced as a result, it means that religious fundamentalists will stop trying to "convert" homosexuals to homosexuality (a painful process for the homosexual), it means that scientific research to find a prevention for the birth defect of homosexuality could be months away from providing a simple vitamin supplement to the pregnant woman (like was done to greatly reduce the incidence of other gestational epigenetic birth defects like spina bifida) to prevent their offspring from having the intrinsic misery-creating birth defect of homosexuality, and in no way should all of this compromise the equal-rights or political position of those supporting equal rights for those suffering from homosexuality, indeed, discrimination should reduce as a result of accepting the epigenetic birth defect reality of homosexuality.

Though I can understand the existence of the irrational fear of ideologues and activists, it's simply that: irrational .. and, when the matter is considered rationally, there's really no reason not to simply accept the benefits that come with accepting the scientific truth of the matter as I've presented it.
Click to expand...

As I said, nothing above is relevant. You have failed to prove your position and have refused to substantiate it after repeated requests. No science indicates that homosexuality is a birth defect. If you believe it does, post a quote from any of that science that states it.
 
Re: Identical Twin Studies Prove Homosexuality is Not Genetic

Lysander said:
Continue enjoying being on the wrong side of things if you please.
Click to expand...

Except I'm not. It has been clearly demonstrated that you don't know what you are talking about.

What ya wanna know? Do you hate white people and kids to?
Click to expand...

Where did you come up with that irrelevant question?

Reverse that and you are 100% correct. Its amazing up until 1973 CORRECTLY homosexuality was considered a mental disease...
Click to expand...

Wrong again... which seems to be typical. As I demonstrated in another thread in a response to you, homosexuality was INcorrectly considered a mental disorder until 1973 when it was removed.
 
Re: Identical Twin Studies Prove Homosexuality is Not Genetic

Lysander said:
Well that's what it stands for. 14 words were coined by David Lane a freedom fighter and POW who is dead now.
Click to expand...

David Lane was a terrorist and a racist. His death means that there is one less scumbag on the planet. Please get your facts straight.
 
Re: Identical Twin Studies Prove Homosexuality is Not Genetic

ecofarm said:
Genetics likely provide an inclination but other (sociological and personal) factors are mitigating. The important thing to understand, given the various factors, is that it is not a choice. And, of course, it's natural.
Click to expand...

Actually, to be exact, it is probably more of a choice for some and less for others, depending upon both congenital biology and life experiences. After all, there is such a thing as adaptive homosexuality/lesbianism which occurs well outside the confines of prison. Indeed, there even appears to be such a thing as fashionable lesbianism these days.
 
Re: Identical Twin Studies Prove Homosexuality is Not Genetic

ecofarm said:
Genetics likely provide an inclination but other (sociological and personal) factors are mitigating. The important thing to understand, given the various factors, is that it is not a choice. And, of course, it's natural.
Click to expand...

...you just self-contradicted. If factors are sociological and personal, then choice does indeed play a significant role.
 
Re: Identical Twin Studies Prove Homosexuality is Not Genetic

cpwill said:
...you just self-contradicted. If factors are sociological and personal, then choice does indeed play a significant role.
Click to expand...

Choice does play a significant role because even if someone was gay (not by choice), they could CHOOSE to live a lifestyle in which they try to ignore their own feelings and existance. It has been done many times before when society wrongly shunned homosexuality.

That doesn't mean it just goes away though because they choose to ignore what their body is telling them nor does it mean homosexuality isn't genetic.
 
Re: Identical Twin Studies Prove Homosexuality is Not Genetic

TheNextEra said:
Choice does play a significant role because even if someone was gay (not by choice), they could CHOOSE to live a lifestyle in which they try to ignore their own feelings and existance. It has been done many times before when society wrongly shunned homosexuality.

That doesn't mean it just goes away though because they choose to ignore what their body is telling them nor does it mean homosexuality isn't genetic.
Click to expand...

:shrug: if that is true then the reverse is equally true. But you are ignoring our ability to shape ourselves - and our choices do indeed shape our sexuality, as does our cultural background and governing assumptions. The "Homosexuality is not and cannot ever be a choice" dogma is an ideological truth-claim driven by politics, not a realistic appraisal of the phenomenon.
 
Re: Identical Twin Studies Prove Homosexuality is Not Genetic

cpwill said:
:shrug: if that is true then the reverse is equally true. But you are ignoring our ability to shape ourselves - and our choices do indeed shape our sexuality, as does our cultural background and governing assumptions.
Click to expand...

We can shape ourselves to a point, but I have never been attracted to the same sex and I never made a choice to be heterosexual. I just was that way. There are certain things like flavors, selections, etc that are not influenced by choice.

cpwill said:
The "Homosexuality is not and cannot ever be a choice" dogma is an ideological truth-claim driven by politics, not a realistic appraisal of the phenomenon.
Click to expand...

Yet you and others cannot say when you made the so called "choice" to be heterosexual. If homosexuality is a choice, then so is heterosexuality. Did you "choose" or was your body and mind just attracted to the opposite sex?

Every single homosexual I have talked to about this has had the same experiences I have in regards to not choosing to be the way they are. I am heterosexual and did not make a choice to be, and they are homosexual and did not make a choice to be that way.
 
Re: Identical Twin Studies Prove Homosexuality is Not Genetic

TheNextEra said:
We can shape ourselves to a point, but I have never been attracted to the same sex and I never made a choice to be heterosexual. I just was that way. There are certain things like flavors, selections, etc that are not influenced by choice.
Click to expand...

Sort of. You likely never tried. In cultures where it is more common or even expected, bisexuality is not universal, but certainly widespread among males.

Yet you and others cannot say when you made the so called "choice" to be heterosexual.
Click to expand...

:shrug: you are attempting to make a complex and phased question into a binary one, which explains why your reasoning breaks down. We are each of us born with a range of possibilities and our life occurrences and - yes - choices shape where on that range we will end up.
 
Re: Identical Twin Studies Prove Homosexuality is Not Genetic

cpwill said:
Sort of. You likely never tried. In cultures where it is more common or even expected, bisexuality is not universal, but certainly widespread among males.
Click to expand...

Engaging in a homosexual act and being homosexual are two different things.

cpwill said:
:shrug: you are attempting to make a complex and phased question into a binary one, which explains why your reasoning breaks down. We are each of us born with a range of possibilities and our life occurrences and - yes - choices shape where on that range we will end up.
Click to expand...

Again, when did you CHOOSE to be heterosexual? Since you cannot answer the very simplest of questions, it shows that your side of the argument fails. You want to believe that homosexuality is a choice, I am not here to change your views. You are going to believe what you want to and I am going to continue to believe what I see around me. I have not seen a homosexual or heterosexual CHOOSE to be attracted to either the opposite sex or same sex.
 
Re: Identical Twin Studies Prove Homosexuality is Not Genetic

TheNextEra said:
Engaging in a homosexual act and being homosexual are two different things.
Click to expand...

"We are what we repeatedly do", I believe the man said.

Again, when did you CHOOSE to be heterosexual?
Click to expand...

It's not a binary issue. Looking back I can definitely see how several of my experiences and choices have shaped my current sexual desires and expressions. The extreme can be seen in those who become addicted to pornography and get into the most unusual of expressions - from animal to child to humiliation.

But here's a question for your, TNE; in our culture it is considered extremely shameful and severely punishable to have sex with underage minors (children). But in not a few of the central asian cultures, it is rather common. Are those men influenced by their culture, personal history, and choices to be able to be sexually stimulated by children? Or would you argue that it is in their genetic code, they have no choice, and particular races are simply predisposed to pedophilia?

Since you cannot answer the very simplest of questions, it shows that your side of the argument fails
Click to expand...

The question is a false question because of an artificial binary assumption. It is like asking if one is capable of reading and writing for communications' purposes without specifying what language.
 
Re: Identical Twin Studies Prove Homosexuality is Not Genetic

cpwill said:
...you just self-contradicted. If factors are sociological and personal, then choice does indeed play a significant role.
Click to expand...

Sociological and personal factors that do not involve making a choice.
 
Re: Identical Twin Studies Prove Homosexuality is Not Genetic

Sig said:
Actually, to be exact, it is probably more of a choice for some and less for others, depending upon both congenital biology and life experiences.
Click to expand...

Did you choose to be straight?
 
Re: Identical Twin Studies Prove Homosexuality is Not Genetic

CaptainCourtesy said:
No, you have completely failed to prove your position. This has been shown in multiple threads by multiple posters. Your scientific links do not indicate "defect". You have been challenged to provide evidence of the "birth defect" but have refused.
Click to expand...
False, obviously.

The number of people whining in no way negates the whining from being simply that: whining.

Continue to feign dumbnesss in the matter if you wish -- that's just another form of whining about obvious realities that fly in the face of your pre-conceived ideological agenda.
 
Re: Identical Twin Studies Prove Homosexuality is Not Genetic

CaptainCourtesy said:
As I said, nothing above is relevant. You have failed to prove your position and have refused to substantiate it after repeated requests. No science indicates that homosexuality is a birth defect. If you believe it does, post a quote from any of that science that states it.
Click to expand...
Yep .. Dr. Rice and his team's silence on the challenge to deny that their etiological presentation makes homosexuality obviously a birth defect .. .. is golden.

:cool:
 
Re: Identical Twin Studies Prove Homosexuality is Not Genetic

cpwill said:
"We are what we repeatedly do", I believe the man said.



It's not a binary issue. Looking back I can definitely see how several of my experiences and choices have shaped my current sexual desires and expressions. The extreme can be seen in those who become addicted to pornography and get into the most unusual of expressions - from animal to child to humiliation.

But here's a question for your, TNE; in our culture it is considered extremely shameful and severely punishable to have sex with underage minors (children). But in not a few of the central asian cultures, it is rather common. Are those men influenced by their culture, personal history, and choices to be able to be sexually stimulated by children? Or would you argue that it is in their genetic code, they have no choice, and particular races are simply predisposed to pedophilia?



The question is a false question because of an artificial binary assumption. It is like asking if one is capable of reading and writing for communications' purposes without specifying what language.
Click to expand...


I've been saying this forever here at DP.. The narrative (And they all pat themselves on the back for it) being that we (straight people) did not choose our sexuality is a non sequitur. I've argued from the pedophilia point of view as well suggesting that there are a lot more potential pedophiles than there are homosexuals, and that is usually enough to send them packing and I see it worked for you as well. Secondly, I'd point out that "most" homophiles frame the question wrongly anyway. When someone says that homosexuality is a choice, they are not necessarily stating that the choice is a conscious one. The choice comes in many forms and is what I believe to be directly related to what environment you place yourself in and under what conditions that occurs. granted, my take is more anecdotal, and not provably factual, but it stands to reason that, homosexuality appears to be more about confluence, as opposed to any single set of criterion, example, conscious choice, genetic etc..


Tim-
 
Re: Identical Twin Studies Prove Homosexuality is Not Genetic

Hicup said:
When someone says that homosexuality is a choice, they are not necessarily stating that the choice is a conscious one. The choice comes in many forms and is what I believe to be directly related to what environment you place yourself in and under what conditions that occurs.
Click to expand...
Yes, exactly... just because someone didn't 'choose' something doesn't mean that they didn't have any choice in the matter.

I don't know of anyone that 'chooses' to get cancer, but I do know a lot of people that smoke.
 
Re: Identical Twin Studies Prove Homosexuality is Not Genetic

Hicup said:
I've been saying this forever here at DP.. The narrative (And they all pat themselves on the back for it) being that we (straight people) did not choose our sexuality is a non sequitur. I've argued from the pedophilia point of view as well suggesting that there are a lot more potential pedophiles than there are homosexuals, and that is usually enough to send them packing and I see it worked for you as well. Secondly, I'd point out that "most" homophiles frame the question wrongly anyway. When someone says that homosexuality is a choice, they are not necessarily stating that the choice is a conscious one. The choice comes in many forms and is what I believe to be directly related to what environment you place yourself in and under what conditions that occurs. granted, my take is more anecdotal, and not provably factual, but it stands to reason that, homosexuality appears to be more about confluence, as opposed to any single set of criterion, example, conscious choice, genetic etc..


Tim-
Click to expand...

Because it's an incredibly stupid argument.

BTW, a choice that isn't a conscious choice isn't really a choice. They did not sit down and choose their attraction or their love. There is just reason to denounce the pedophile. Children are not of age of consent and can be abused. The adult is, well an adult. So to deny rights to the homosexual, you need just cause. Otherwise you're just an asshole.

The born homosexual data hints at it being one factor. There may be others. But that doesn't mean the choice is any less made for them by factors beyond their control. They can refrain from love, hold their feeling inside, never act, but without just reason to do that, that's a lot to ask of even a patient and understanding soul. That wouldn't be me.
 
Re: Identical Twin Studies Prove Homosexuality is Not Genetic

ecofarm said:
Did you choose to be straight?
Click to expand...

I certainly chose to have sex with every woman I ever slept with. Then again, now that I think about, there was at least one occasion when I woke up with a vicious hangover, lying next to a total psychotic, and wondering "How did I get here?"

Anyway, I believe you have completely missed my point. The human experience of "choice" is always made within a certain context of congenital biology, direct experience, and the confines of a finite array of possibilities. Of course, these factors will vary widely from one human experience to another.

For example, while the human species is sociobiologically endowed with inhibitions against incest, these inhibitions will often be circumvented in contexts where the choice of sexual partners is very limited, such as on a farm a hundred or so miles away from regular social interaction with other humans. In such circumstances, it is not terribly unusual for some degree of brother-sister incest to occur, especially during adolescence. However, the very same siblings might never even consider having sexual relations with each other if they were living in the city where their choice of sexual partners would be far wider and thus far more agreeable to the incest taboo.
 
Re: Identical Twin Studies Prove Homosexuality is Not Genetic

Sig said:
I certainly chose to have sex with every woman I ever slept with.
Click to expand...

You were gonna sleep with a guy but decided to sleep with a woman instead?
 
Re: Identical Twin Studies Prove Homosexuality is Not Genetic

Taylor said:
Yes, exactly... just because someone didn't 'choose' something doesn't mean that they didn't have any choice in the matter.
Click to expand...

Yes, it does.


I don't know of anyone that 'chooses' to get cancer, but I do know a lot of people that smoke.
Click to expand...

What did they choose to do that turned them gay? If you chose to do the same, you'd be gay? Are their warnings about stuff that can make you gay? I've never seen such a label.
 
Re: Identical Twin Studies Prove Homosexuality is Not Genetic

ecofarm said:
You were gonna sleep with a guy but decided to sleep with a woman instead?
Click to expand...

No, I was gonna sleep with a sow, but decided to sleep with your mother since the sow wouldn't have me.

Incidentally, this is how you came into the world.
 
Re: Identical Twin Studies Prove Homosexuality is Not Genetic

Sig said:
.
Click to expand...

You prefer beastiality but chose to be straight? How often do animals "have" you?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom