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Desmond Tutu Would Prefer Hell Over A Homophobic Heaven

TacticalEvilDan said:
Actually, yeah. You don't eat or sleep or live in god's house, you go there to worship, the very thing a lost sinner would need to see the most.
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That is not what the Bible says.

TacticalEvilDan said:
So ... murder Oedipus? Did I read that right?
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Hehehe! No. Cast him from among the congregation for his sexual immorality.

TacticalEvilDan said:
This actually seems to contradict your point, when we're talking about sinners who are not part of the body of Christ.
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It means we are to judge the actions of Christians and leave the outside to it's own devices and let God judge them.
 
Black Manta said:
It is what Jesus himself said...

"Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.”

“How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!”
Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”

I do not know the mind of God outside of what the Bible teaches. So all I can say is have faith and follow the teachings.
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Yeah, the "believe this, or you will spend an eternity in hell" is a good way to get followers for your religion, but not something I think God would actually do. Especially when religion is run by people, and trusting people for others salvation makes no sense.

Also you can't trust everything from the Bible, it was written by people, thousands of years ago, in 3 different languages from oral traditions, and edited over and over again. I can't believe that God would send one to hell for all eternity for not believing in a book with that many flaws.
 
Black Manta said:
Hehehe! No. Cast him from among the congregation for his sexual immorality.
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I'm really not kidding. I don't see any other way to read "deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh." This is why I'm far more interested in what Jesus did than what he said, and why I'm far more interested in what he said than what his followers said.


Black Manta said:
It means we are to judge the actions of Christians and leave the outside to it's own devices and let God judge them.
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So then you are not to judge them. If you can't judge them, how are you to decide to bar the way in to the church?
 
Your Star said:
No, you will err on what you were taught to be Christ, and God's teachings, big difference.
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I have no idea what you mean? What big difference? I can read scripture for myself and come to my own conclusion. So yes I go strictly by the word as handed down.
 
Black Manta said:
I have no idea what you mean? What big difference? I can read scripture for myself and come to my own conclusion. So yes I go strictly by the word as handed down.
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My point being that you can't really know what God wants, no matter how much you want too.
 
TacticalEvilDan said:
I'm really not kidding. I don't see any other way to read "deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh." This is why I'm far more interested in what Jesus did than what he said, and why I'm far more interested in what he said than what his followers said.
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His followers wrote down what he said??? It is no difference. Either you believe it or you don't. Yes he is talking about spirituality handing the guy to Satan. Not killing him. Hence "destruction of the flesh" is not meant literally. Otherwise early Christians would have been throwing a multitude into the fire.

TacticalEvilDan said:
So then you are not to judge them. If you can't judge them, how are you to decide to bar the way in to the church?
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Because they are not one of God's children. We are not to judge them because it would be pointless. We know they are not Christians.
 
Your Star said:
My point being that you can't really know what God wants, no matter how much you want too.
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Which is why as I have been saying... We go by the Bible. It tells us as Christians what he wants. This is not a difficult concept.
 
Your Star said:
Yeah, the "believe this, or you will spend an eternity in hell" is a good way to get followers for your religion, but not something I think God would actually do. Especially when religion is run by people, and trusting people for others salvation makes no sense.
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What can I tell you? The Bible says what it says.

TacticalEvilDan said:
Also you can't trust everything from the Bible, it was written by people, thousands of years ago, in 3 different languages from oral traditions, and edited over and over again. I can't believe that God would send one to hell for all eternity for not believing in a book with that many flaws.
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I do trust everything as do many, many others. It is the word of God.

The book is flawless. In all it's translations with all it's different views. It takes you on a spiritual journey. The most amazing part is no matter which one you use or which translation you still end up at the same place.
 
Black Manta said:
His followers wrote down what he said??? It is no difference. Either you believe it or you don't.
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I assume accurate reporting for the sake of discussions with those who venerate the Bible. Still, even so assuming, someone'e behavior is always more telling than what they say, and what they say is always more telling than what is said by those who revere them.

Black Manta said:
Yes he is talking about spirituality handing the guy to Satan. Not killing him. Hence "destruction of the flesh" is not meant literally. Otherwise early Christians would have been throwing a multitude into the fire.
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If "destruction of the flesh" doesn't mean what it says, then what else doesn't mean what it says? This gets down to the biggest problem I have with the Bible -- when is it literal and when is it not and when does it mean one thing when we think it means something totally different? What's literal and what's figurative and what has to be viewed through the lens of historical context?

Black Manta said:
Because they are not one of God's children. We are not to judge them because it would be pointless. We know they are not Christians.
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If you can't judge them, how are you to decide to bar the way in to the church?
 
Black Manta said:
Which is why as I have been saying... We go by the Bible. It tells us as Christians what he wants. This is not a difficult concept.
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And all I'm saying is that the Bible is a flawed book, filled with lies, and non-truths.
 
TacticalEvilDan said:
I assume accurate reporting for the sake of discussions with those who venerate the Bible. Still, even so assuming, someone'e behavior is always more telling than what they say, and what they say is always more telling than what is said by those who revere them.
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OK.

TacticalEvilDan said:
If "destruction of the flesh" doesn't mean what it says, then what else doesn't mean what it says? This gets down to the biggest problem I have with the Bible -- when is it literal and when is it not and when does it mean one thing when we think it means something totally different? What's literal and what's figurative and what has to be viewed through the lens of historical context?
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We do have such a lens. It's called cross referencing the OT with the new as well as historical references and the original wording in Greek. Most modern Bible's have a guide to help with difficult wording or understanding of the wording. I mean we have been studying it for centuries, we have learned a thing or two, lol.

TacticalEvilDan said:
If you can't judge them, how are you to decide to bar the way in to the church?
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I think we are operating under a misconception here. No one is barred initially, unless they are obviously not interested in redemption. Anyone can walk into any church. To become a member or be welcomed back is a different story.
 
Your Star said:
And all I'm saying is that the Bible is a flawed book, filled with lies, and non-truths.
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Thats fine if you are not a Christian. If you are a Christian, the Bible is clear on what you have to do to be one and remain in God's good graces. Nothing wrong with either view as it is subjective.
 
Black Manta said:
Thats fine if you are not a Christian. If you are a Christian, the Bible is clear on what you have to do to be one and remain in God's good graces. Nothing wrong with either view as it is subjective.
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I am a Christian but I don't believe in everything in the Bible. To do so is just not possible for me.

And that has nothing to do with being gay, it has everything to do with knowing how it was written, and the content of some of it's passages.
 
Your Star said:
I am a Christian but I don't believe in everything in the Bible. To do so is just not possible for me.
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Heh a few years ago I would have said that makes you a bad Christian. Now I don't know. It's between you and God.

Your Star said:
And that has nothing to do with being gay, it has everything to do with knowing how it was written, and the content of some of it's passages.
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I know most of it and have studied it a great deal in it's original languages as well. Although I needed much help for that.

I am not sure what being gay has to do with anything I said to you?
 
Black Manta said:
We do have such a lens. It's called cross referencing the OT with the new as well as historical references and the original wording in Greek. Most modern Bible's have a guide to help with difficult wording or understanding of the wording. I mean we have been studying it for centuries, we have learned a thing or two, lol.
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Except that Jesus came to replace the covenant and the law, so why are we cross-referencing anything against the Old Testament? Why do Christians not follow the New Testament strictly?

That aside, how is one man's re-interpretation of something as clear as "destruction of the flesh" any better than another man's re-interpretation? Who has the divine inspiration and who has it wrong? If we can't even figure that out, how do we figure out who is or is not allowed into a church?

Black Manta said:
I think we are operating under a misconception here. No one is barred initially, unless they are obviously not interested in redemption. Anyone can walk into any church. To become a member or be welcomed back is a different story.
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This is getting awfully confusing. What Jesus said and did always seemed so much simpler than this.
 
TacticalEvilDan said:
Except that Jesus came to replace the covenant and the law, so why are we cross-referencing anything against the Old Testament? Why do Christians not follow the New Testament strictly?
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God spoke in the OT, it is a good learning tool and gives incite into God's nature. If you can't see that I don't know what to tell you.

TacticalEvilDan said:
That aside, how is one man's re-interpretation of something as clear as "destruction of the flesh" any better than another man's re-interpretation? Who has the divine inspiration and who has it wrong? If we can't even figure that out, how do we figure out who is or is not allowed into a church?
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One man? Who said anything about one man? How about hundreds and thousands of biblical scholars over the centuries? Will that do or do I need to now site everyone who has ever interpreted the Bible?

Sorry didn't mean to sound like a smart ass. I apologies.

TacticalEvilDan said:
This is getting awfully confusing. What Jesus said and did always seemed so much simpler than this.
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It is simple. You are making it complicated.
 
Not sure why this is so shocking to fire and brimstone evangelicals. They've long considered Catholicism itself something which is hell-worthy, no?

As for myself, as someone who was raised Catholic and is married to a Catholic woman, I am happy to see things like this happening in the Catholic church. On the heels of Pope Franky saying that atheists aren't automatically destined for hell, it gives me hope that the Catholic faith might finally enter into the 21st century.
 
Tucker Case said:
Not sure why this is so shocking to fire and brimstone evangelicals. They've long considered Catholicism itself something which is hell-worthy, no?
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Hey not all of us. I know plenty of Catholics that might be going to heaven, lol.

Tucker Case said:
As for myself, as someone who was raised Catholic and is married to a Catholic woman, I am happy to see things like this happening in the Catholic church. On the heels of Pope Franky saying that atheists aren't automatically destined for hell, it gives me hope that the Catholic faith might finally enter into the 21st century.
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***Update***: Many news outlets have since pointed out that CNN’s attribution of Rosica being a Vatican spokesperson is wrong. Rosica is just a religious leader with no formal ties to the Vatican. That doesn't change the fact that Catholicism still teaches that atheists are going to hell, but there you go.

Hehehehehe! Sorry Tucker, I just could not resist.
 
Tucker Case said:
Not sure why this is so shocking to fire and brimstone evangelicals. They've long considered Catholicism itself something which is hell-worthy, no?

As for myself, as someone who was raised Catholic and is married to a Catholic woman, I am happy to see things like this happening in the Catholic church. On the heels of Pope Franky saying that atheists aren't automatically destined for hell, it gives me hope that the Catholic faith might finally enter into the 21st century.
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Desmond Tutu is an Anglican bishop, not Catholic.
 
ThePlayDrive said:
Desmond Tutu is an Anglican bishop, not Catholic.
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Aren't they the Christian org responsible for the trouble for homosexuals in Africa??? No, I looked it up Evangelicals. Man I was like holy cow, lol.
 
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ThePlayDrive said:
There are a lot of Christian "orgs" who are responsible for such trouble...
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No. I was talking about a specific incident by a specific group. It was Evangelicals.
 
Black Manta said:
Please point out were I said I hope people go to hell?
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Do you not read the posts that you like? You liked one of the first posts of thread and it's first line was "I hope he enjoys his eternal suffering that is so painful we can't imagine it on earth." You hope that someone goes to Hell and so do many other Christians. That toxicity, as you call it, needs to be banished before it infects all of us.
 
Your Star said:
I am a Christian but I don't believe in everything in the Bible. To do so is just not possible for me.

And that has nothing to do with being gay, it has everything to do with knowing how it was written, and the content of some of it's passages.
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i am not a expert on the bible, but i do have more than basic knowledge

Jesus--- i am the way, the truth, and the life"

Jesus--- "no one goes to the father but through me"

if you do not believe in the bible, its impossible to be a christian, becuase it means you do not accept the blood and body of Christ
 
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