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Federal court halts Christian prayers at North Carolina county meetings [W:656]

Caine said:
They are still individuals, and are allowed to have their individual beliefs.
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Uhh yes they can. They can pray all they want in private in small groups just cant be on official legislative business.
 
brothern said:
What's your point? Just because something may be traditional, doesn't mean it is right.
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My point is that our earliest representatives didn't see prayer opening a meeting as a violation of church and state.
 
TheDemSocialist said:
Uhh yes they can. They can pray all they want in private in small groups just cant be on official legislative business.
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Still waiting to see why there is such a big deal about a 2 minute period.

You can't even try to PRETEND this isn't about "Hatred for Christianity".

Thats all this is.
 
TheDemSocialist said:
When its on the record of the official legislative documents it is..



Its not single individuals. I have no problem with someone praying on their own. Your missing this part: saying a prayer on the officially legislative record is endorsing a religion.. That is against the 1st amendment..
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You claim you don't have a problem with individuals praying however, apparently you draw the line with collective praying - as if there is a difference.

I think you just have a problem with Christianity.
 
Caine said:
Still waiting to see why there is such a big deal about a 2 minute period.

You can't even try to PRETEND this isn't about "Hatred for Christianity".

Thats all this is.
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This isnt about hatred of anyone. This is about separating religion from the state. And im a christian as well but im not gonna endorse official state business to praying.
 
Mr.Nick said:
You claim you don't have a problem with individuals praying however, apparently you draw the line with collective praying - as if there is a difference.

I think you just have a problem with Christianity.
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I dont have a problem with a group of people praying. I have a problem when its part of official business of the sate. And no i dont, i dont have a problem with Christianity at all, being a Lutheran.
 
Caine said:
Still waiting to see why there is such a big deal about a 2 minute period.

You can't even try to PRETEND this isn't about "Hatred for Christianity".

Thats all this is.
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That's exactly what this is about.

These authoritarians hate Christianity. We both know they wouldn't have an opinion if this was about non-Christians praying.
 
TheDemSocialist said:
This isnt about hatred of anyone. This is about separating religion from the state. And im a christian as well but im not gonna endorse official state business to praying.
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You have to consider the community this is being done in.

In rural southern communities who are comprised of 98% Christians, I see no problem with the local council doing something like this.

The only reason this went somewhere is because the ACLU trolled the meetings to collect data for a lawsuit on behalf of nobody.
 
TheDemSocialist said:
I dont have a problem with a group of people praying. I have a problem when its part of official business of the sate. And no i dont, i dont have a problem with Christianity at all, being a Lutheran.
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Praying is protected under the First Amendment therefore your opinion is moot, not to mention tyrannical.

People can pray whenever they want.
 
TheDemSocialist said:
This isnt about hatred of anyone. This is about separating religion from the state. And im a christian as well but im not gonna endorse official state business to praying.
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The First Amendment bans legislating religion.

There is no "separation of church and state." Hell, when Jefferson used the term in his letters he was referencing theocracies, as if any of that matters considering Jefferson's letters are not founding documents.
 
Caine said:
You have to consider the community this is being done in.

In rural southern communities who are comprised of 98% Christians, I see no problem with the local council doing something like this.
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Cool that still does not change the fact the they need to uphold the legal documents of this country.


The only reason this went somewhere is because the ACLU trolled the meetings to collect data for a lawsuit on behalf of nobody.
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Ill say they did this on behalf of me being a member of the ACLU
 
Mr.Nick said:
Praying is protected under the First Amendment therefore your opinion is moot, not to mention tyrannical.

People can pray whenever they want.
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Of course people can pray whenever they want they cant however pray as legislative bsiness.
 
TheDemSocialist said:
Cool that still does not change the fact the they need to uphold the legal documents of this country.



Ill say they did this on behalf of me being a member of the ACLU
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How many times does one have to say to you that "separation of church and state" doesn't exist for you to accept that fact?

I'm pretty sure a 10-year-old has the capacity to understand the First Amendment, why don't you?
 
TheDemSocialist said:
Of course people can pray whenever they want they cant however pray as legislative bsiness.
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That doesn't make any sense...

You do realize that forbidding an individual from praying anytime anywhere would violate the First Amendment?
 
Mr.Nick said:
How many times does one have to say to you that "separation of church and state" doesn't exist for you to accept that fact?

I'm pretty sure a 10-year-old has the capacity to understand the First Amendment, why don't you?
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Yes there is. "In the words of Thomas Jefferson, the clause against establishment of religion by law was intended to erect a wall of separation between church and state."-Justice Hugo Black
 
Mr.Nick said:
That doesn't make any sense...

You do realize that forbidding an individual from praying anytime anywhere would violate the First Amendment?
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:doh If you wanna pray on the floor of the legislator you can do it all you want be it in your head, in your voice to yourself, it cannot however be apart of the official legislative business on the record to open up the session. Wanna pray in the leigslator before with a group go ahead, wanna do it outside the doors go ahead, it cannot be apart of the official legislative business. This isnt "authoritatrian" or "tyrranical" or whatever you wanna call it. Its respecting liberty and having respect for others religions.
 
TheDemSocialist said:
Yes there is. "In the words of Thomas Jefferson, the clause against establishment of religion by law was intended to erect a wall of separation between church and state."-Justice Hugo Black
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You have clearly never read the Jefferson letters - I have.

You do realize Jefferson was making reference to theocracies? not that any of this matters considering Jeffersons letters are not founding documents or legislation .
 
TheDemSocialist said:
:doh If you wanna pray on the floor of the legislator you can do it all you want be it in your head, in your voice to yourself, it cannot however be apart of the official legislative business on the record to open up the session. Wanna pray in the leigslator before with a group go ahead, wanna do it outside the doors go ahead, it cannot be apart of the official legislative business. This isnt "authoritatrian" or "tyrranical" or whatever you wanna call it. Its respecting liberty and having respect for others religions.
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Have you ever heard of the concept of freedom of speech and expression?

Those are two more ideas protected by the First Amendment.

BTW, I love how you're slaughtering civil liberties, more specifically our First Amendment.
 
Mr.Nick said:
You have clearly never read the Jefferson letters - I have.

You do realize Jefferson was making reference to theocracies? not that any of this matters considering Jeffersons letters are not founding documents or legislation .
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That wasnt jefferson that was Justice Hugo Black...
 
Mr.Nick said:
Have you ever heard of the concept of freedom of speech and expression?
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:doh No one is saying they cant pray! Can you not read? What they are saying is that you cannot open official legislative business by endorsing a religion by praying! They are free to pray all they want on their own.


BTW, I love how you're slaughtering civil liberties, more specifically our First Amendment.
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Yea... Except i have various USSC documents and other lawsuits to back up that this lawsuit ensured the protection of the 1st amending.
 
TheDemSocialist said:
That wasnt jefferson that was Justice Hugo Black...
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You don't know what the hell you're talking about and a brief google doesn't do your argument any justice considering you're wrong.
 
TheDemSocialist said:
:doh No one is saying they cant pray! Can you not read? What they are saying is that you cannot open official legislative business by endorsing a religion by praying! They are free to pray all they want on their own.



Yea... Except i have various USSC documents and other lawsuits to back up that this lawsuit ensured the protection of the 1st amending.
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You do realize that the First Amendment bans religious based legislation?

You would have a point if it was LAW to open any meeting with a prayer but it's not law - it's individuals agreeing to pray collectively.

Do you not understand this or is free will too complicated for you to understand?
 
nota bene said:
My point is that our earliest representatives didn't see prayer opening a meeting as a violation of church and state.
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They also allowed slavery and gave no rights to women. We are not required to continue their hypocritical behavior or beliefs, especially when it contradicts the constitution.
 
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Mr.Nick said:
Have you ever heard of the concept of freedom of speech and expression?

Those are two more ideas protected by the First Amendment.

BTW, I love how you're slaughtering civil liberties, more specifically our First Amendment.
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Am official presiding over a taxpayer-funded official meeeting has the duty to run the meeting in a religiously neutral manner. That official is no longer an individual, her is representing the city government. Elected officials have other opportunites during the course of the meeting to express their opinions or say a prayer. But while presiding over the rituals that are part of the official meeting opening, the chairperson has a moral and legal obligation to be religiously neutral. Official City Council meetings cost a few hundred dollars per hour in staff time and other expenses. Using that money for religious purposes is wrong.

The honest fact is that most of you would not be defending this practice if it was a Muslim, Satanic or Scientology prayer or an atheist speech that was part of the official opening of the meeting every week.
 
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Mr.Nick said:
You do realize that the First Amendment bans religious based legislation?

You would have a point if it was LAW to open any meeting with a prayer but it's not law - it's individuals agreeing to pray collectively.

Do you not understand this or is free will too complicated for you to understand?
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When those "individuals" are elected officials making an agreement during, or about, the proceedings of an official meeting it is law.
 
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