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Federal court halts Christian prayers at North Carolina county meetings [W:656]

Kal'Stang said:
No they've just claimed a lie that politicians praying at the begining of a meeting is against the "seperation of church and state" clause. That seperation of church and state clause only had to do with laws being made. It had absolutely nothing to do with speaking or praying or anything else religious. People have corrupted it. Why have they done this? Because they find other religions to be offensive or religion in general offensive.
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If you want to take everything in the constitution this narrowly, you don't have a right to own a gun. The 2nd amendment doesn't say anything about guns.
 
Kal'Stang said:
Via laws correct. But there is no right to stop a politician from speaking about God, allah or any other diety or conducting prayers at any time they wish in a setting where people are not forced to be there to hear it.
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When you say "via laws" you're talking about harassment and impeding... Prayer is neither - well unless I strap someone down on a chair and started preaching fire and brimstone...

There is no right not to be offended and there is no "law" protecting anyone from being offended considering "offended" is objective.
 
Manc Skipper said:
Have your prayer before the meeting, not during it. How hard is that? Or are you trying to offend those whom you believe have no right to be offended?
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Or people just need to stop being offended by other peoples religious beliefs when it is harmless.
 
Mr.Nick said:
When you say "via laws" you're talking about harassment and impeding... Prayer is neither - well unless I strap someone down on a chair and started preaching fire and brimstone...

There is no right not to be offended and there is no "law" protecting anyone from being offended considering "offended" is objective.
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Actually no i'm not. The government is not allowed to make any laws for or against any religion. And when I'm talking about "not being forced to hear it" I'm talking about situations where people have no choice...such as going to a police station or a court.

Or am I misunderstanding what you mean?
 
Deuce said:
If you want to take everything in the constitution this narrowly, you don't have a right to own a gun. The 2nd amendment doesn't say anything about guns.
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I'm not going to even reply to comments like these with my own articulation anymore - I'll just prove you're a communist shill using the points of the "communist goals of 1963" outlined via the Naked Communist.

Communist Goals - 1963 Congressional Record

13. Do away with all loyalty oaths (constitution in this case).

29. Discredit the American Constitution by calling it inadequate, old-fashioned, out of step with modern needs, a hindrance to cooperation between nations on a worldwide basis.

30. Discredit the American Founding Fathers. Present them as selfish aristocrats who had no concern for the "common man."

31. Belittle all forms of American culture and discourage the teaching of American history on the ground that it was only a minor part of the "big picture." Give more emphasis to Russian history since the Communists took over.

33. Eliminate all laws or procedures which interfere with the operation of the Communist apparatus.

27. Infiltrate the churches and replace revealed religion with "social" religion. Discredit the Bible and emphasize the need for intellectual maturity which does not need a "religious crutch."
 
paddymcdougall said:
How about if I chat loudly while the city council is attempting to pray?

As tererun says - pray on your own time. Go ahead. But not at the beginning of a government meeting.
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If you want to be ignorant and inconsiderate, why not? If this is what a group of people want to do, they should be able to, if you or anyone else don't like it, show up 5 minutes after the meeting starts...or better yet show some *gasp* t-o-l-e-r-a-n-c-e...:wow:
 
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Deuce said:
If you want to take everything in the constitution this narrowly, you don't have a right to own a gun. The 2nd amendment doesn't say anything about guns.
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1: Apples and oranges. Two different subjects.
2: A gun is considered an "arm" so yes it does. At the time the 2nd Amendment was written the word "arms" in context meant anything that was built to be a weapon. It included, swords, guns, knives, even cannons.
3: And I'm not taking it narrowly. I'm taking it at exactly what it was intended as and no more. Anything else is revisionism.
 
Kal'Stang said:
Actually no i'm not. The government is not allowed to make any laws for or against any religion. And when I'm talking about "not being forced to hear it" I'm talking about situations where people have no choice...such as going to a police station or a court.

Or am I misunderstanding what you mean?
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No I just didn't understand what you meant by "via laws" considering "via laws" are a gray area hence difficult to enforce.

Of course our government cant make any laws for or against religion - I was arguing that in this thread for a good couple hours this morning and some posters still didn't get the First Amendment - more specifically the first two sentences of the First Amendment.

All I was getting at was that it's not against the law to offend someone like some of the posters here ignorantly believe.
 
TheDemSocialist said:
A big win for civil liberties. All members should be treated equally and government bodies should not open sessions with a prayer. This is a win for a cornerstone on the Separation of Church and State.
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And while the peons were occupied with a phrase that doesn't appear the the Constitution, the nation burned...
 
Mr.Nick said:
I'm not going to even reply to comments like these with my own articulation anymore - I'll just prove you're a communist shill using the points of the "communist goals of 1963" outlined via the Naked Communist.

Communist Goals - 1963 Congressional Record

13. Do away with all loyalty oaths (constitution in this case).

29. Discredit the American Constitution by calling it inadequate, old-fashioned, out of step with modern needs, a hindrance to cooperation between nations on a worldwide basis.

30. Discredit the American Founding Fathers. Present them as selfish aristocrats who had no concern for the "common man."

31. Belittle all forms of American culture and discourage the teaching of American history on the ground that it was only a minor part of the "big picture." Give more emphasis to Russian history since the Communists took over.

33. Eliminate all laws or procedures which interfere with the operation of the Communist apparatus.

27. Infiltrate the churches and replace revealed religion with "social" religion. Discredit the Bible and emphasize the need for intellectual maturity which does not need a "religious crutch."
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None of these points were made here.
 
Verthaine said:
Maybe that's the problem with politics.Maybe they should be paid for the hours they work.
Just a thought.
Maybe the problem of flooding on the Fremont Rd underpass might get solved if they got paid to actually do their jobs..
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That would be interesting.

Verthaine said:
Along with term limits,maybe politicians should be paid for the actual work they do.
Again,just a thought.
I really don't care what a politician does in their free time.
As long as that giant pothole near the Scarsdale Country Club gets fixed.
Which it isn't.
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Fine by me.

Verthaine said:
You are of course correct.By your argument I should have no right to complain when they aren't doing their jobs like fixing the roads,since no matter what they do or don't do,they are still getting paid for it.
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Actually my arguement is about them doing something someone else finds offensive. Some one complaining about something not being done that they should be doing but are not is valid to do.
 
Arbo said:
And while the peons were occupied with a phrase that doesn't appear the the Constitution, the nation burned...
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The phrase doesn't appear, but the concept is clearly in the First Amendment. Just like the word "gun" does not appear in the Constitution, but are clearly covered by the Second Amendment.
 
Arbo said:
And while the peons were occupied with a phrase that doesn't appear the the Constitution, the nation burned...
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"Separation of church and state" is communist manifested nonsense.

Communist Goals - 1963 Congressional Record

27. Infiltrate the churches and replace revealed religion with "social" religion. Discredit the Bible and emphasize the need for intellectual maturity which does not need a "religious crutch."

28. Eliminate prayer or any phase of religious expression in the schools on the ground that it violates the principle of "separation of church and state."

I suppose we could replace "schools" with "government institutions."
 
rocket88 said:
None of these points were made here.
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They were clearly made - they just weren't stated verbatim...

Hell, the people who are making these "progressive" arguments don't even know they're communists and are doing the bidding for the communists.

If you knew something about history and how a society accepts a "revolution" such as socialism you would understand that it takes progress - like brainwashing children to unconditionally accept an ideology - in this case it's "socialism" but you call it "progress."

Same book different different name.
 
Kal'Stang said:
That would be interesting.



Fine by me.



Actually my argument is about them doing something someone else finds offensive. Some one complaining about something not being done that they should be doing but are not is valid to do.
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It's what I've been arguing all along.If the entire city council are Christians,Buddhists,Satanists,Muslims,Oogaboogaists,or whatever and they all agree that they want to have a prayer before conducting business,I personally have no problem with it.As long as that damn pothole gets filled sometime this freakin' century.
 
rocket88 said:
The phrase doesn't appear, but the concept is clearly in the First Amendment. Just like the word "gun" does not appear in the Constitution, but are clearly covered by the Second Amendment.
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There is no concept...

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof"

What is so ****ing hard to understand about those two sentences?

That **** is easier to interpret than a Dr. Seuss entry.

All it means is that theocracies are banned and people can worship how, when and wherever they please.

That's all it means....

It doesn't mean that elected officials cant pray, or that bibles should be banned from public libraries or that a group cant pray before a town hall meeting.... It means none of that....
 
rocket88 said:
The phrase doesn't appear, but the concept is clearly in the First Amendment. Just like the word "gun" does not appear in the Constitution, but are clearly covered by the Second Amendment.
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Pretty weak stuff you put out... The first doesn't really cover such a concept, what it covers is quite different.
 
Verthaine said:
It's what I've been arguing all along.If the entire city council are Christians,Buddhists,Satanists,Muslims,Oogaboogaists,or whatever and they all agree that they want to have a prayer before conducting business,I personally have no problem with it.As long as that damn pothole gets filled sometime this freakin' century.
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A few posting are more concerned about people praying rather than **** that actually matters like the pothole that keeps on screwing up their rims and causing accidents...
 
Mr.Nick said:
A few posting are more concerned about people praying rather than **** that actually matters like the pothole that keeps on screwing up their rims and causing accidents...
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In my humble opinion,far too many people,whether they are religious or not, are too busy poking their noses in other peoples business rather than attending to their own.
If it's not not one group bitching about people people praying in public,then it is another group bitching about gays getting married.If it is not one group bitching about some religious group putting religious displays on government property,then it is another group bitching about how their religion doesn't automatically get their way all the time.
 
Mr.Nick said:
I'm not going to even reply to comments like these with my own articulation anymore - I'll just prove you're a communist shill using the points of the "communist goals of 1963" outlined via the Naked Communist.

Communist Goals - 1963 Congressional Record

13. Do away with all loyalty oaths (constitution in this case).

29. Discredit the American Constitution by calling it inadequate, old-fashioned, out of step with modern needs, a hindrance to cooperation between nations on a worldwide basis.

30. Discredit the American Founding Fathers. Present them as selfish aristocrats who had no concern for the "common man."

31. Belittle all forms of American culture and discourage the teaching of American history on the ground that it was only a minor part of the "big picture." Give more emphasis to Russian history since the Communists took over.

33. Eliminate all laws or procedures which interfere with the operation of the Communist apparatus.

27. Infiltrate the churches and replace revealed religion with "social" religion. Discredit the Bible and emphasize the need for intellectual maturity which does not need a "religious crutch."
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Why are you posting the demented ravings of a complete nutjob, a man Glenn Beck idolises. Skousen's so-called "Communist Goals" came out of his rather deranged mind. The communists supported by the USSR were bad enough but the words of Skousen came only from his rather disturbed brain.
 
Kal'Stang said:
No where in my post did I state what God wanted or thinks.

And why keep it out of the council and legislative chambers? Because others might be offended? Pfft. No one has a right to not be offended.
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you wrote, "And God listens to ALL prayers, including ones that are given by groups." ... How do you know this?

you keep it out of chambers because that's a secular space and I like the idea of separation of church and state ... I like the following ...

Erecting the 'wall of separation between church and state,' therefore, is absolutely essential in a free society.”
― Thomas Jefferson

“The government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion.”
― John Adams

“The purpose of separation of church and state is to keep forever from these shores the ceaseless strife that has soaked the soil of Europe in blood for centuries.”
― James Madison

“They knew that to put God in the constitution was to put man out. They knew that the recognition of a Deity would be seized upon by fanatics and zealots as a pretext for destroying the liberty of thought. They knew the terrible history of the church too well to place in her keeping or in the keeping of her God the sacred rights of man. They intended that all should have the right to worship or not to worship that our laws should make no distinction on account of creed. They intended to found and frame a government for man and for man alone. They wished to preserve the individuality of all to prevent the few from governing the many and the many from persecuting and destroying the few.”
― Robert G. Ingersoll

“Those who would renegotiate the boundaries between church and state must therefore answer a difficult question: why would we trade a system that has served us so well for one that has served others so poorly?”
― Sandra Day O'Connor

“When the government puts its imprimatur on a particular religion it conveys a message of exclusion to all those who do not adhere to the favored beliefs. A government cannot be premised on the belief that all persons are created equal when it asserts that God prefers some.”
― Harry A. Blackmun
 
iliveonramen said:
Well I was asking about the reasoning or need to pray publicly. That was what my question was about.

As for making out in public...nobody is trying to force people not to pray out in public. They are forcing them to not pray before a commissioner meeting which generally isn't the place for conducting business generally viewed as private.
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Meh, it's a null factor. Religion hasn't been private....pretty much ever. It's been a domineering force in human history, civilization, and society. I don't know why all of a sudden it's something people should "keep to themselves" or keep at home or whatever nonsense. And end of the day if the commission meeting accomplishes its goals and works for the People and abides the laws of man; I don't care. I see no need to get worked up over null factors.
 
paddymcdougall said:
That's ridiculous. I am at the meeting to comment on civic issues and to hear what my govt is up to. You're saying I shouldn't be a good citizen? Instead, the govt will host a prayer and drive me away?

Give it up, all of you prayer defenders. Prayers should not be part of a govt meeting, held on govt property, funded by taxpayers of all and none religions.

Pray all you want. Don't make me hear it as the price of seeing my govt in action.
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If you'd get driven off by a prayer and not participate because you couldn't even sit still while people prattled nonsense before the start of the meeting....you probably shouldn't be involved in government. Intolerant people are how we end up with tyranny.
 
TheDemSocialist said:
Yea... Well the founding documents of our country say otherwise.
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They have been praying in our federal buildings and White House and Courts and Congress and States since the very beginning. They may make no law! So long as their rule is by the rights and liberties of the individual, they are free to do as they like. Prayer in our government is not new. Hell we put "One Nation Under God" into our Pledge of Allegiance in the 50's. So people had been doing it and talking of it well before then as well.

It's a prayer, it's not a nuke, it's not a law, it's not force. Y'all need to chill out and stop overreacting to these things.
 
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