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Federal court halts Christian prayers at North Carolina county meetings [W:656]

Kal'Stang said:
Praying is not just an individual thing, it can also be communal. And God listens to ALL prayers, including ones that are given by groups.
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It should not be communal during public/governmental meetings, particularly when it becomes a part of the public record. A time and place for everything, and a public meeting is not the time nor place for a prayer.
 
TheNextEra said:
Not if I am paying an employee for a job and he is doing it there. Then it costs me.
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What job would that be? Frankly I have no doubt that you excuse a lot of things you pay for (mostly unknowingly). This is merely a reasonable excuse to use as a weapon against something you don't like. The other 99.99999999999999% things that go on that aren't relevant county business, you'll excuse. Probably few if any are getting paid at a county meeting.
 
roguenuke said:
From what I understand, they believe in the baser instincts of man being what drives us and that being okay. But like many religions, there are diverse beliefs within the whole. We actually have a Satanic Bible in our home (along with a couple of Bibles, a book of Mormon, a Koran, and some other religious texts). It isn't a philosophy I personally ascribe to, but it seems to be anything from worshiping Satan (and sometimes this means some sort of odd or even cruel rituals, other times it is merely believing that he was bullied by/treated by God wrongly) to using Satan as a symbol of believing that we are our own gods.
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I'm an agnostic, but fascinated by religion and people's religious beliefs ... I need to read up more on this ... thanks ...
 
Kal'Stang said:
Praying is not just an individual thing, it can also be communal. And God listens to ALL prayers, including ones that are given by groups.
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Sure...it can be communal and there's a place for that. In this situation...for some reason there's a need to pray in a place that's not a house of worship out loud in front of others.
 
Kal'Stang said:
Praying is not just an individual thing, it can also be communal. And God listens to ALL prayers, including ones that are given by groups.
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I'm always amazed by how much people know about what God wants and thinks ... it's almost spooky ... anyway, pray away, but keep it out of council and legislative chambers ... I don't even like it when Presidents say "God Bless the United States of America." ... I'm less bothered when they quote the Bible because it's just another book and it does have some good stuff in there, as many books do ...
 
iliveonramen said:
Sure...but prayer is a personal thing. Doing it in front of people or in the public arena doesn't serve a purpose. If I went outside in front of people and started randomly...I dunno picking up dog **** and eating it I'm obviously doing it in front of people because I want an audience. It obviously have some need to be recognized and need attention.

I don't see how public prayer isn't just individuals needing some recognition like "HEY GUYS I'M RELIGIOUS!"
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I think making out is a personal thing, but I ain't gonna run around trying to force people not to make out in public.
 
Having a politician get up during a legislative session and promote a particular religious viewpoint is a 1st amendment violation. They are using the power of government to spread the word of their faith. However, the supreme court rulings have not banned prayer itself, only prayers that are considered sectarian in nature. You can open an official meeting with a prayer, provided it is not seen as promoting a specific faith. The specifics of how you can actually do that are pretty murky, but that is the legal standard at this time.
 
ChezC3 said:
and you do that by being silent during prayer time.
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How about if I chat loudly while the city council is attempting to pray?

As tererun says - pray on your own time. Go ahead. But not at the beginning of a government meeting.
 
Ikari said:
I think making out is a personal thing, but I ain't gonna run around trying to force people not to make out in public.
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Well I was asking about the reasoning or need to pray publicly. That was what my question was about.

As for making out in public...nobody is trying to force people not to pray out in public. They are forcing them to not pray before a commissioner meeting which generally isn't the place for conducting business generally viewed as private.
 
roguenuke said:
Some students and/or parents disagree with you. I personally wouldn't care up to the point where a teacher tried to teach my child something about religion or push her/his religion on my child. But I still looked in disdain at the Bible verse plastered on the door of the school my son will be attending next month (I figure though it is almost certainly going to be removed prior to them getting back to school and was probably from one of the church services held there on some Sundays).
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Honestly it doesn't matter what people "think". What matters is reality. I myself am totally against organized religion and semi-against people espousing it. But I will not try to deprive them of thier right just because I think it is offensive because I do not have a right to do so. But many think that they do have that right. Reality is that they don't and in order to force thier belief they are twisting an Amendment to mean something that it never meant.
 
roguenuke said:
It should not be communal during public/governmental meetings, particularly when it becomes a part of the public record. A time and place for everything, and a public meeting is not the time nor place for a prayer.
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Why? Because people might find it offensive? Sorry but there is no right to not be offended.
 
Mr.Nick said:
No one is being forced to listen to a prayer because no one is being forced to be at the meeting to begin with. You're at that meeting out of your own free will - not because someone forced you.
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That's ridiculous. I am at the meeting to comment on civic issues and to hear what my govt is up to. You're saying I shouldn't be a good citizen? Instead, the govt will host a prayer and drive me away?

Give it up, all of you prayer defenders. Prayers should not be part of a govt meeting, held on govt property, funded by taxpayers of all and none religions.

Pray all you want. Don't make me hear it as the price of seeing my govt in action.
 
iliveonramen said:
Sure...it can be communal and there's a place for that. In this situation...for some reason there's a need to pray in a place that's not a house of worship out loud in front of others.
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Why? Because people might find it offensive? Sorry but there is no right to not be offended.
 
Kal'Stang said:
Why? Because people might find it offensive? Sorry but there is no right to not be offended.
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There is a right to not have the government push someone's else's religion on you.
 
windowdressing said:
I'm always amazed by how much people know about what God wants and thinks ... it's almost spooky ... anyway, pray away, but keep it out of council and legislative chambers ... I don't even like it when Presidents say "God Bless the United States of America." ... I'm less bothered when they quote the Bible because it's just another book and it does have some good stuff in there, as many books do ...
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No where in my post did I state what God wanted or thinks.

And why keep it out of the council and legislative chambers? Because others might be offended? Pfft. No one has a right to not be offended.
 
Kal'Stang said:
No where in my post did I state what God wanted or thinks.

And why keep it out of the council and legislative chambers? Because others might be offended? Pfft. No one has a right to not be offended.
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Nobody has said anything about it being because it's offensive, but for some reason you've attacked this straw man three times now.
 
Deuce said:
There is a right to not have the government push someone's else's religion on you.
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Via laws correct. But there is no right to stop a politician from speaking about God, allah or any other diety or conducting prayers at any time they wish in a setting where people are not forced to be there to hear it.
 
Kal'Stang said:
Horrible arguement. Politicians are not paid an hourly rate. They are payed via a salary.
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Maybe that's the problem with politics.Maybe they should be paid for the hours they work.
Just a thought.
Maybe the problem of flooding on the Fremont Rd underpass might get solved if they got paid to actually do their jobs..

Kal'Stang said:
Which means that if you want to claim that you are paying them to "pray" when they pray at a council meeting then you also have to admit that you are praying when they are not at any offical function but instead in their own church. You are also paying them to sleep at night. You are paying them to take a dump or piss. You are paying them eat at a restaurant with their spouses and children with no official function. And many many many other things.
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Along with term limits,maybe politicians should be paid for the actual work they do.
Again,just a thought.
I really don't care what a politician does in their free time.
As long as that giant pothole near the Scarsdale Country Club gets fixed.
Which it isn't.

Kal'Stang said:
So if we went by your arguement then you have a so called "right" to force that politician to not ever pray, not ever go to a personal church, not ever donate to a religious charity group etc etc.

Just because taxpayers pay a politicians salary does not give the taxpayers a right to dictate to them how to live their lives or what to say in public or at functions. Being a politician does not strip you of any Rights at any time or place.
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You are of course correct.By your argument I should have no right to complain when they aren't doing their jobs like fixing the roads,since no matter what they do or don't do,they are still getting paid for it.
 
Kal'Stang said:
Why? Because people might find it offensive? Sorry but there is no right to not be offended.
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Sure...for the most part there isn't. Generally people want to minimize offensiveness to others in work situations....or formal public events...like a commissioners meeting. Which brings me to my previous point. Why is there such a need to pray in front of others. If one person finds it offensive...maybe pray in your office before the meeting? Maybe pray silently to your self? Besides the court officially not allowing the praying in this case that's usually just how people should conduct themselves.
 
Have your prayer before the meeting, not during it. How hard is that? Or are you trying to offend those whom you believe have no right to be offended?
 
Deuce said:
Nobody has said anything about it being because it's offensive, but for some reason you've attacked this straw man three times now.
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No they've just claimed a lie that politicians praying at the begining of a meeting is against the "seperation of church and state" clause. That seperation of church and state clause only had to do with laws being made. It had absolutely nothing to do with speaking or praying or anything else religious. People have corrupted it. Why have they done this? Because they find other religions to be offensive or religion in general offensive.
 
rocket88 said:
Yes, we know that conservatives are the most victimized group in history. Maybe if you practiced what you preached about getting over the victim complex....
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Those poor Libbos can't get a break. Right?
 
Cephus said:
You have freedom of religion, you just don't have the freedom to push it on others. Try again.
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Saying a prayer is hardly pushing religion on others. Not to mention, that is not what the Constitution addresses anyway.
 
iliveonramen said:
Sure...for the most part there isn't. Generally people want to minimize offensiveness to others in work situations....or formal public events...like a commissioners meeting. Which brings me to my previous point. Why is there such a need to pray in front of others. If one person finds it offensive...maybe pray in your office before the meeting? Maybe pray silently to your self? Besides the court officially not allowing the praying in this case that's usually just how people should conduct themselves.
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I used to have a quote from Abe Lincoln in my sig...I think it applies here...

"You can please some of the people some of the time, but you cannot please all the people all the time."
 
Deuce said:
Nobody has said anything about it being because it's offensive, but for some reason you've attacked this straw man three times now.
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Manc Skipper said it in post 445
 
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