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I still don't see why you think Canadians flock to the US for healthcare. It's absolutely untrue.
I gave you a link. WTF?
I still don't see why you think Canadians flock to the US for healthcare. It's absolutely untrue.
And our survival birth rate better is that your... na-na-na-na-na-na! :roll:
And my nationalistic pride has nothing--I mean nothing--to do with why I think our healthcare system (as far from perfect as it is presently) is eons better than yours.
Hah, except that you were making your comment about cancer and how awesome Canada is with Cancer treatment.
No, it has EVERYTHING to do with it. Were you not so filled with national pride you might have actually dug into the statistics to see if they really say what you think they say.
I was? Where's my quote?
I'm aware of some stats. I am also aware that overall, Canada statistically ranks better than American healthcare. You need to seriously accept that despite your national pride.
I can't speak for other countries, but I can assure you that a patient in Canada with lung cancer will be taken care of with the highest amount of urgency and care, no matter the initial prognosis.
Hah, except that you were making your comment about cancer and how awesome Canada is with Cancer treatment.
You are likely thinking of the studies where they rank a whole multitude of pointless things like "access to insurance", and then weight the non-healthcare related statistics many times higher than the actual health care in the given country. In short, if their goal is to promote the magic of socialized medicine they rank high... but when you compare on ACTUAL HEALTH CARE they rate poorly... which is why with these pro-socialized medicine statistics they never seem to catch the nuance for why the actual health care data is skewed and chalk up all differences to socialized medicine.
As the old joke goes: 87% of Canadians love Canadian Health care while the other 13% are sick.
Did you actually read it?
Here, let me help you. Here's a chart that will give you good visual effect:
View attachment 67151146
Hate to repeat myself but facts are facts.
The nonpartisan Fraser Institute reported that 46,159 Canadians sought medical treatment outside of Canada in 2011, as wait times increased 104 percent — more than double — compared with statistics from 1993.
Specialist physicians surveyed across 12 specialties and 10 provinces reported an average total wait time of 19 weeks between the time a general practitioner refers a patient and the time a specialist provides elective treatment — the longest they have ever recorded.
Boo Radley;1062122240[B said:]Not sure where you're getting your information. But I don't think it's accurate:[/B]
Myth: There are long waits for care, which compromise access to care.There are no waits for urgent or primary care in Canada. There are reasonable waits for most specialists' care, and much longer waits for elective surgery. Yes, there are those instances where a patient can wait up to a month for radiation therapy for breast cancer or prostate cancer, for example. However, the wait has nothing to do with money per se, but everything to do with the lack of radiation therapists. Despite such waits, however, it is noteworthy that Canada boasts lower incident and mortality rates than the U.S. for all cancers combined, according to the U.S. Cancer Statistics Working Group and the Canadian Cancer Society. Moreover, fewer Canadians (11.3 percent) than Americans (14.4 percent) admit unmet health care needs.
Read more: Debunking Canadian health care myths - The Denver Post Debunking Canadian health care myths - The Denver Post
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The truth, as usual, is something in between the two extremes. Does Canada have problems in its health care system? Absolutely. Does the Canadian system match with the horror film depiction of the Republican party? Absolutely not. In analyzing and health care system which is as complex and vast as the Canadian and American system it is not useful to focus on individual anecdotes. After all, if you look into any systems covering that many people you will always be able to find some failures. One needs to only watch Sicko and Jon Stossel reports back-to-back to find multiple stories of people who have been failed by both systems. Instead, we should focus on the overall data from each country to judge which system is superior.
(Snip)
The truth, as usual, is something in between the two extremes. Does Canada have problems in its health care system? Absolutely. Does the Canadian system match with the horror film depiction of the Republican party? Absolutely not. In analyzing and health care system which is as complex and vast as the Canadian and American system it is not useful to focus on individual anecdotes. After all, if you look into any systems covering that many people you will always be able to find some failures. One needs to only watch Sicko and Jon Stossel reports back-to-back to find multiple stories of people who have been failed by both systems. Instead, we should focus on the overall data from each country to judge which system is superior.
(Snip)
Conclusion:
In America we spend more and yet still receive less health care overall in comparison to our Canadian friends up North. Perhaps instead of trying to run away from the "we will become Canada" argument the Obama administration should simply concede the argument. In reality, the plan proposed by Democrats has significant differences with the Canadian system. Most importantly, the United States system at least intends to maintain a private insurance system. Still, without a doubt the Democratic proposal would make our health care system more similar to the Canadian system. If this is true the data above reveals that actually may not be bad thing.
Health care reform fact or fiction part four: Is Canada's health care better or worse? - National Political Buzz | Examiner.com
Canadians happy with primary health care, study says - The Globe and Mail
My source was pretty clear, nonpartisan Fraser institute. The fact is Canadians leave Canada by the tens of thousands per year for health care. Those are just the ones that can afford it so you have to believe there are tens of thousands more that would if they could.
Is that what you really think, especially when you look at the bigger picture?
Perhaps I did confuse, but that was an example of government money doing good work many often attribute, Inaccurately, to the American market place. It's government money. Government institutions.
And no matter the reasons, limited is limited. The 9 in 10 will still get ill, still get hurt, still use care you will pay for. Nothing you do outside of denying care will change that. So, we should devise a plan that effectively deals with the problems we have and just a small segment of the population.
And in tis country, it pays to be either very poor or wealthy enough. To be working poor is to be lost in no man's land. Talk about incentives (something many think they understand but don't).
And no, health care can be removed from employment. This is part of the appeal of doing business overseas. They don't have to deal with the cost of healthcare (or paying a decent wage).
And no, we get more fluff, for the wealthy, but in terms of access, we get less. And if you're among the working poor here, you get less of everything measured.
As for downward pressure, that's not enough. The pressure of those things you mention simply will not do enough.
It will still be too expensive for most, we'll still be paying for the uninsured. And we'll still be paying more for less than the rest of the world.
Your last part is more snarky than anything else. The point is working together as problem solvers is more effective than either being ideologues or being to concerned with being elected. Work on solving real issues.
Lower income Americans are in better health than comparable Canadians. Twice as many American seniors with below-median incomes self-report "excellent" health compared to Canadian seniors (11.7 percent versus 5.8 percent). Conversely, white Canadian young adults with below-median incomes are 20 percent more likely than lower income Americans to describe their health as "fair or poor."
I wholeheartedly agree that healthcare can be removed from employment. But when you simply increase the taxes that the employer pays in order to fund government healthcare, you havent' exactly reduced his costs - you've increased them, because now he has to pay for healthcare and the government to run it.
In places where it's been implemented we've seen reductions in prices for normal procedures to half of the standard cost. I'd say that's pretty darn impressive.
Right. So, just to be clear, you continue to be unable to demonstrate any combination of tax rates that at any point in our history have ever even come remotely close to producing the revenue that you would require to fund a massive new entitlement such as Single-Payer?
1) Canadians are happier than we are with their care and 2) Canada is not the only system out there.
But are they happier with their system BECAUSE of that system or are they happy because they know for any "complex" procedure they need done quicker, they can just come to the U.S. for treatment?
I'm only asking because when surveys are done, sometimes the question is a little bit misleading. For instance, if you were to ask me "Am I happy where I am living" because it's somewhat in a country area, I would say yes. However, that is just because the city is only 15 miles from me. If you were to ask me the same question and I didn't live near a city I would say no.
Regardless, I think the question of Health Care cannot really be compared directly to another country because they are always differing factors so in that I agree.
We can play dueling sources if you want, but there Re still too points (and only two), 1) Canadians are happier than we are with their care and 2) Canada is not the only system out there.
1. Canadians are probably happier in general than we are. Canadians also have the safety valve of the U.S.
2. You are correct - Canada probably does single payer far more effectively than we could.
But just to be clear, you still have yet to identify the magical source of free money that is going to pay for all this?
As I linked earlier, we wait here, so I doubt that.
Yes I have. I gave you a link on a plan. As there was nothing magical nor free about it. You're merely playing games.
Depends on where your income. Seem here wait longer. Others not.Not as long as they do, and we have greater access. There are more MRI machines in Atlanta Georgia than there are in the entire country of Canada.
Depends on where your income.
Seem here wait longer. Others not.