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Moderate Democrats are quitting on Obamacare

:roll: yeah. because what our budget can really handle right now is another massive entitlement program.

We're paying more than other countries right now. It can be done, paid for, and cost all of us less. To to mention remove it from employment, helping everyone.
 
Moderate Democrats are quitting on Obamacare



This law is junk, we always knew, Dems are getting to know it, and Obama has already admitted it (with the delayed implementation to 2015).

I would disagree...
"Once again reality has taken over from the Republicans, as a new study finds that only a small minority of businesses affected have made any significant changes in the number of hours their employees work. According to a 2012 report by the Kaiser Family Foundation, 98 percent of large firms (those that employ 200 or more workers), and 94 percent of medium-sized firms (those with 50 to 199 employees) offer health care coverage to their employees. It is counterintuitive to believe that any company that offered health coverage when it was not required would drop that coverage or reduce employee hours to avoid the requirement that they provide coverage now, although this is another claim prominent in Republican conversations.... …most of these firms [those with 50 or more employees] would already be providing health care insurance for their employees and therefore need not be concerned about the sanctions in the ACA. If some number of firms actually are limiting or reducing employment to stay below the 50 worker cutoff then the impact would be too small to be noticed in the economy as a whole."
Read more: GOP Talking Point Goes Down In Flames: Obamacare NOT Harming Workers -
 
We're paying more than other countries right now. It can be done, paid for, and cost all of us less. To to mention remove it from employment, helping everyone.

Sure we can pay less - rationing does that. But you don't really address the point, which is that our budget cannot absorb another massive entitlement program.
 
Sure we can pay less - rationing does that. But you don't really address the point, which is that our budget cannot absorb another massive entitlement program.

More nonsense? You're better than that silliness. Nt being able to pay for something is rationing. No where in the world, not even here, des everyone get everything they want. But others do a better job of making sure everyone gets what they need, at less cost, and still allowing money to buy more.
 
And THAT is why so many people wanting so called voluntary surgery end up in the US. They don't want to or can't suffer the pain of a bad hip or back until there is room for them in maybe 6 months to a year.

So many? Show me a link.
 
More nonsense? You're better than that silliness. Nt being able to pay for something is rationing. No where in the world, not even here, des everyone get everything they want. But others do a better job of making sure everyone gets what they need, at less cost, and still allowing money to buy more.

That is... shall we say, highly debatable. Not that other countries do not spend less, but that they get the same care for their smaller spending. If "what everyone needs" is "not to die when they get cancer", for example, the American model is superior.

However, again, besides the point - the budget cannot absorb another major entitlement program. :shrug: We simply do not have the ability to take the spending on healthcare in this country and put it on the public fisc.
 
That is... shall we say, highly debatable. Not that other countries do not spend less, but that they get the same care for their smaller spending. If "what everyone needs" is "not to die when they get cancer", for example, the American model is superior.

However, again, besides the point - the budget cannot absorb another major entitlement program. :shrug: We simply do not have the ability to take the spending on healthcare in this country and put it on the public fisc.

Your first point, how well you survive cancer depends a lot on what you can afford.

Second point, it shouldn't effect the budget at all. The money we spend on insurance premiums, mark ups for the uninsured, and needless procedures would easily cover costs. Once you actually try to solve a problem, the more likely you are to solve it.
 
So many? Show me a link.

Enjoy

Fully 2% of Canada's populace at one point or another has left the country in order to seek medical care, while another 8% have had to move around within the country to find healthcare that their local government providers apparently couldn't give them.

Five Key Drivers of Canadians seeking care elsewhere:
1. Shorter Waiting Periods and Access to Care
2. Comparable or Better Quality Care
3. Ability to Afford Out-of-Country Costs
4. Access to services not available in Canada
5. Cosmetic Services

The Most Common Reasons Why Canadians Leave to Find Healthcare:
1. Orthopedic Procedures
2. Neurosurgery / Neurology
3. Weight Loss / Liposuction
4. Cosmetic / Plastic Surgery
5. Dental Procedures
6. Cardiovascular Procedures
7. Oncology
8. Fertility
9. Sex Reassignment

Those highlighted in blue are those that I believe are being referenced here. Those being struck out appear to be people seeking actual purely because-I-want-it care.

This, I would say, doesn't qualify as "just because I want it":
...A long wait for hip replacement surgery was what prompted the Quebec case that wound up before the Supreme Court.

George Zeliotis argued his yearlong wait for surgery was unreasonable, endangered his life, and infringed on the charter's guarantee of the right to life, liberty and security. The second plaintiff, Dr. Jacques Chaoulli, wanted the court to overturn a Quebec provision preventing doctors who don't operate within the medicare plan from charging for services in public hospitals...
 
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Your first point, how well you survive cancer depends a lot on what you can afford.

True. For example, if you are Great Britain, you can't afford very much. Here in the U.S., however, you have a better chance. I would posit that

Second point, it shouldn't effect the budget at all. The money we spend on insurance premiums, mark ups for the uninsured, and needless procedures would easily cover costs. Once you actually try to solve a problem, the more likely you are to solve it.

ah. so it is your theory that we will continue to pay our insurance premiums, except that those companies will now immediately turn over 100% of all monies received to the government, cost-free?

Reality, unfortunately, is not so kind. We could never catch in tax revenue enough to make up the costs you wish to put on the Federal Government.
 

CBC? :lamo

Anyway, you guys are always flawed because you cherry pick. Try this one:


* Canada had the highest percentage of patients (36%) who had to wait six days or more for an appointment with a doctor, but the United States had the second highest percentage (23%) who reported that they had to wait at least this long. New Zealand, Australia, Germany, and the U.K. all had substantially smaller numbers of people reporting waits of 6 days or longer. Canada and the United States, in that order, also had the lowest percentage of persons who said they could get an appointment with a doctor the same or next day.

Wait Times For Medical Care: How The US Actually Measures Up - Better Health

Or this:


Myth: There are long waits for care, which compromise access to care.There are no waits for urgent or primary care in Canada. There are reasonable waits for most specialists' care, and much longer waits for elective surgery. Yes, there are those instances where a patient can wait up to a month for radiation therapy for breast cancer or prostate cancer, for example. However, the wait has nothing to do with money per se, but everything to do with the lack of radiation therapists. Despite such waits, however, it is noteworthy that Canada boasts lower incident and mortality rates than the U.S. for all cancers combined, according to the U.S. Cancer Statistics Working Group and the Canadian Cancer Society. Moreover, fewer Canadians (11.3 percent) than Americans (14.4 percent) admit unmet health care needs.


Read more: Debunking Canadian health care myths - The Denver Post Debunking Canadian health care myths - The Denver Post
Read The Denver Post's Terms of Use of its content: Terms of Use - The Denver Post
Follow us: @Denverpost on Twitter | Denverpost on Facebook

You should know that there are many systems out there. Most doing better than ours overall.
 
True. For example, if you are Great Britain, you can't afford very much. Here in the U.S., however, you have a better chance. I would posit that



ah. so it is your theory that we will continue to pay our insurance premiums, except that those companies will now immediately turn over 100% of all monies received to the government, cost-free?

Reality, unfortunately, is not so kind. We could never catch in tax revenue enough to make up the costs you wish to put on the Federal Government.

Not entirely true. Few here can afford care. We pay a lot for insurance to cover it. Most of item paid by employers. We also do a lot of treatment not paid for, which rises costs.

And no, I said nothing about paying insurance companies nor turning over anything. I said that money could be moved, paid in taxes. One insurer (which in and of itself would reduce costs).
 
Not entirely true. Few here can afford care. We pay a lot for insurance to cover it. Most of item paid by employers. We also do a lot of treatment not paid for, which rises costs.

And no, I said nothing about paying insurance companies nor turning over anything. I said that money could be moved, paid in taxes. One insurer (which in and of itself would reduce costs).

Yep. We have all seen that monopolies tend to help to keep those pesky product and service costs down. ;)
 
Yep. We have all seen that monopolies tend to help to keep those pesky product and service costs down. ;)

Not the same. Job would be to prove care at reasonable cost and not profit.


On a side note, insurance companies as they stand have not kept costs down. In fact, long before reform, we've been paying more and more for less and less. The ob of the insurer is to take in money while trying not to pay out. The successful company has few sick people, and lots of well people paying, which largely defeats the purpose.
 
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Not entirely true. Few here can afford care. We pay a lot for insurance to cover it. Most of item paid by employers. We also do a lot of treatment not paid for, which rises costs.

On the contrary. When we actually pay for care, the costs are dramatically lower. When we pre-pay for group care via third-parties, the incentives are for each individual to attempt to beggar his neighbor, and so that is what we do, with the result of rapidly rising costs.

And no, I said nothing about paying insurance companies nor turning over anything. I said that money could be moved, paid in taxes. One insurer (which in and of itself would reduce costs).

:) ah, so we are going to collect enough in taxes.

Okay. Healthcare spending in this country is approximately 12% of GDP. So we need to add 12% of GDP in taxes.

Situation. We are currently collecting around 16-17% of GDP in federal taxes. So in order to meet your standard of "not effecting the budget at all", we would need to increase revenues to about 28% of GDP.

Problem: We have never in the history of the United States of America managed to collect that much tax revenue, even when top nominal rates were 91%

Tax_rate_vs_revenue_Chart.png


The dream of "well we'll just run that money through the government instead" is a pipe dream, and has about as much substance behind it as the smoke it implies. That's before you get to the dynamic effects (which, hint: make the numbers even worse).
 
On the contrary. When we actually pay for care, the costs are dramatically lower. When we pre-pay for group care via third-parties, the incentives are for each individual to attempt to beggar his neighbor, and so that is what we do, with the result of rapidly rising costs.



:) ah, so we are going to collect enough in taxes.

Okay. Healthcare spending in this country is approximately 12% of GDP. So we need to add 12% of GDP in taxes.

Situation. We are currently collecting around 16-17% of GDP in federal taxes. So in order to meet your standard of "not effecting the budget at all", we would need to increase revenues to about 28% of GDP.

Problem: We have never in the history of the United States of America managed to collect that much tax revenue, even when top nominal rates were 91%

Tax_rate_vs_revenue_Chart.png


The dream of "well we'll just run that money through the government instead" is a pipe dream, and has about as much substance behind it as the smoke it implies. That's before you get to the dynamic effects (which, hint: make the numbers even worse).

Lower, but not affordable for all. You merely cut out a segment of the population, and a larger one than you think.

As for taxes, we most reroute money, which would less than we're spending now.

Financing

The program would be federally financed and administered by a single public insurer at the state or regional level. Premiums, copayments, and deductibles would be eliminated. A single payer system as embodied in national legislation (H.R. 676) could be financed in several ways. One progressive option would be to fund it with a combination of existing federal and state revenues for health care, a payroll tax on employers (4-7 percent, much less that what employers pay today to provide less secure coverage), a 6 percent tax on unearned income, a 6 percent surtax on the highest 5 percent of income-earners, and a small tax on financial transactions.

Under this plan, 95 percent of people would pay less for health care. (Gerald Friedman, "Medicare for All" would save billions, and could be redistributive. Dollars and Sense, March/April 2012).

What is Single Payer? | Physicians for a National Health Program

A universal public system would be financed in the following way: The public funds already funneled to Medicare and Medicaid would be retained. The difference, or the gap between current public funding and what we would need for a universal health care system, would be financed by a payroll tax on employers (about 7%) and an income tax on individuals (about 2%). The payroll tax would replace all other employer expenses for employees’ health care, which would be eliminated. The income tax would take the place of all current insurance premiums, co-pays, deductibles, and other out-of-pocket payments. For the vast majority of people, a 2% income tax is less than what they now pay for insurance premiums and out-of-pocket payments such as co-pays and deductibles, particularly if a family member has a serious illness. It is also a fair and sustainable contribution.

Single-Payer FAQ | Physicians for a National Health Program
 
If there was universal healthcare, he'd have a lot less worry.

Tell me, American... what do you think is so great about the system you have now?

I have a good insurance policy, with very low co-pays.
 
Lower, but not affordable for all. You merely cut out a segment of the population, and a larger one than you think.

No, lower. Thanks to the wonderful laboratory of Democracy, we actually have an increasingly good idea of what kinds of reforms are capable of reducing costs (or, at least, holding them steady) while continuing to provide equal or greater actual health care.

The chief problem with our current healthcare system is an abundance of awkward and disruptive government interference. This has led to the dominance of a third-party-payment model which discourages cost-awareness and encourages over-consumption among health care consumers. Government pays for roughly half of our healthcare consumption, and of all third-party payment options, government is the one least likely to be capable or willing to nimbly find ways to impose cost awareness on those capable of sending it bills. The result is a healthcare system in which costs rapidly spiral out of control (we have a similar problem in our higher education industry). Any system which does not alter that disruption and incentivize cost-awareness among consumers for the vast majority of medical purchases will not address the chief underlying flaw of our current system, and we will continue to see costs spiral outside of the control of the citizenry and government.

Reforms which have pushed cost-awareness back onto consumers have demonstrated impressive results at lowering expenditures:

Indiana offered HSA's, - which have patients save money in tax-free accounts (where it grows and remains theirs forever and ever unless theys pend it) - matched with high deductible plans to it's employees. Employees began to respond to price signals, and medical costs per patient were reduced by 33% and expenditures to the state were reduced by 11%.

Safeway has instituted a program that gave financial incentives to people who engaged in healthy behavior by allowing price signals in the insurance side of the market to work (Indiana worked on the medical side), and saw it's per-captia health care costs remain flat from 2005-2009; when most companies saw theirs jump by 38%.

Whole Foods instituted HSA's, and let's the employees choose what they want the company to fund. This institutes price pressure on the medical side (WF covers the high-deductible plan 100%), and their CEO points out that as a result Whole Foods' per-capita costs are much lower than typical insurance programs, while maintaining employee satisfaction.

Medicare Part D utilized market pressure on the insurance side, and saw expenditures come in at 40% UNDER expenditures - the only such government program in history to do so.

Wendy's instituted HSA's, and saw the number of their employees who got preventative and annual checkup care climb even as they saw claims decrease by 14% (in one year).

Wal-Mart's low cost clinics and prescriptions save us oodles of cash. Wal-Mart reports that "half of their clinic patients report that they are uninsured" and that "if it were not for [Wal-Marts'] clinics they would haven't gotten care - or they would have gone to an emergency room".

Dr Robert Berry runs a practice called PATMOS (payment at time of service). he doesn't take insurance at all - but simply posts the prices of his services. By removing the cost of dealing with mutliple insurance agencies, medicare, and medicaid, the prices he is able to list are one half to ONE THIRD of industry standard.

So we know what works, because we've seen it. It's simply that implementing what works means less power in our nations capitals, which means less cash for our nations' politicians, which means less support for implementing it in the first place.

As for taxes, we most reroute money, which would less than we're spending now.

Oh, we'll just magically "reroute" it. :roll: sure. We'll hit the "reroute" button because people treat purchasing goods and services exactly the same way they treat paying taxes.

Financing

The program would be federally financed and administered by a single public insurer at the state or regional level. Premiums, copayments, and deductibles would be eliminated. A single payer system as embodied in national legislation (H.R. 676) could be financed in several ways. One progressive option would be to fund it with a combination of existing federal and state revenues for health care, a payroll tax on employers (4-7 percent, much less that what employers pay today to provide less secure coverage), a 6 percent tax on unearned income, a 6 percent surtax on the highest 5 percent of income-earners, and a small tax on financial transactions.

Under this plan, 95 percent of people would pay less for health care. (Gerald Friedman, "Medicare for All" would save billions, and could be redistributive. Dollars and Sense, March/April 2012).

What is Single Payer? | Physicians for a National Health Program

A universal public system would be financed in the following way: The public funds already funneled to Medicare and Medicaid would be retained. The difference, or the gap between current public funding and what we would need for a universal health care system, would be financed by a payroll tax on employers (about 7%) and an income tax on individuals (about 2%). The payroll tax would replace all other employer expenses for employees’ health care, which would be eliminated. The income tax would take the place of all current insurance premiums, co-pays, deductibles, and other out-of-pocket payments. For the vast majority of people, a 2% income tax is less than what they now pay for insurance premiums and out-of-pocket payments such as co-pays and deductibles, particularly if a family member has a serious illness. It is also a fair and sustainable contribution.

Single-Payer FAQ | Physicians for a National Health Program

Yeah, raising taxes. Except as I've already demonstrated, never in the history of our country have we raised enough taxes to "reroute our spending" into the federal coffers. You're simply not going to get it, especially once you factor in the fact that when you raise the cost of employment by (for example) 9%, you reduce demand for employees. These people think that making rates higher by 9%-15% would fund UHC? When our rates were 60 % higher we didn't raise enough to fund UHC.

But I'm open to being convinced. Average revenues in the pre-Great Recession Era were about 18.5% of GDP. If you can describe for me a single tax structure in American history that collected 6% of GDP over that amount for a 5 year period, I will re-assess my statement on the utter implausibility of the pie-in-the-sky notion that we can afford a massive new entitlement program.
 
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Worth noting: if you want to provide universal coverage to American citizens, then I have already described how that can be accomplished without the fairy tale of magical mountains of tax revenues that we have never seen in our past and are unlikely to see in our future. It even has the added benefit of helping our low-income and poorer populations build wealth and have actual access to healthcare (since Medicaids' reimbursement schedules are lower, many providers cannot afford to take, or have to limit their acceptance of Medicaid recipients).
 
No, lower. Thanks to the wonderful laboratory of Democracy, we actually have an increasingly good idea of what kinds of reforms are capable of reducing costs (or, at least, holding them steady) while continuing to provide equal or greater actual health care.

The chief problem with our current healthcare system is an abundance of awkward and disruptive government interference. This has led to the dominance of a third-party-payment model which discourages cost-awareness and encourages over-consumption among health care consumers. Government pays for roughly half of our healthcare consumption, and of all third-party payment options, government is the one least likely to be capable or willing to nimbly find ways to impose cost awareness on those capable of sending it bills. The result is a healthcare system in which costs rapidly spiral out of control (we have a similar problem in our higher education industry). Any system which does not alter that disruption and incentivize cost-awareness among consumers for the vast majority of medical purchases will not address the chief underlying flaw of our current system, and we will continue to see costs spiral outside of the control of the citizenry and government.

Reforms which have pushed cost-awareness back onto consumers have demonstrated impressive results at lowering expenditures:

Indiana offered HSA's, - which have patients save money in tax-free accounts (where it grows and remains theirs forever and ever unless theys pend it) - matched with high deductible plans to it's employees. Employees began to respond to price signals, and medical costs per patient were reduced by 33% and expenditures to the state were reduced by 11%.

Safeway has instituted a program that gave financial incentives to people who engaged in healthy behavior by allowing price signals in the insurance side of the market to work (Indiana worked on the medical side), and saw it's per-captia health care costs remain flat from 2005-2009; when most companies saw theirs jump by 38%.

Whole Foods instituted HSA's, and let's the employees choose what they want the company to fund. This institutes price pressure on the medical side (WF covers the high-deductible plan 100%), and their CEO points out that as a result Whole Foods' per-capita costs are much lower than typical insurance programs, while maintaining employee satisfaction.

Medicare Part D utilized market pressure on the insurance side, and saw expenditures come in at 40% UNDER expenditures - the only such government program in history to do so.

Wendy's instituted HSA's, and saw the number of their employees who got preventative and annual checkup care climb even as they saw claims decrease by 14% (in one year).

Wal-Mart's low cost clinics and prescriptions save us oodles of cash. Wal-Mart reports that "half of their clinic patients report that they are uninsured" and that "if it were not for [Wal-Marts'] clinics they would haven't gotten care - or they would have gone to an emergency room".

Dr Robert Berry runs a practice called PATMOS (payment at time of service). he doesn't take insurance at all - but simply posts the prices of his services. By removing the cost of dealing with mutliple insurance agencies, medicare, and medicaid, the prices he is able to list are one half to ONE THIRD of industry standard.

So we know what works, because we've seen it. It's simply that implementing what works means less power in our nations capitals, which means less cash for our nations' politicians, which means less support for implementing it in the first place.



Oh, we'll just magically "reroute" it. :roll: sure. We'll hit the "reroute" button because people treat purchasing goods and services exactly the same way they treat paying taxes.



Yeah, raising taxes. Except as I've already demonstrated, never in the history of our country have we raised enough taxes to "reroute our spending" into the federal coffers. You're simply not going to get it, especially once you factor in the fact that when you raise the cost of employment by (for example) 9%, you reduce demand for employees. These people think that making rates higher by 9%-15% would fund UHC? When our rates were 60 % higher we didn't raise enough to fund UHC.

But I'm open to being convinced. Average revenues in the pre-Great Recession Era were about 18.5% of GDP. If you can describe for me a single tax structure in American history that collected 6% of GDP over that amount for a 5 year period, I will re-assess my statement on the utter implausibility of the pie-in-the-sky notion that we can afford a massive new entitlement program.

Actually, you skip a lot. Much of advances in medicine are done at state schools doing work on the government dollar. Your programs you mention are all limited and have very small effect, thus not capable of actually doing the job required. So while it may impress some who don't understand the scope of our problem, the fact remains that you can't piecemeal this problem like that. Many are uninsured. Business pays quite a bit for insurance, and it hurts us in the world marketplace. Even with the reforms you mention, we till pay more and get less for or money than the rest of the world.

Not, as for you merely saying 6% can't be done, you are right that we can't do what we don't try to do. Remove obstructionists from any body working to solve problems, and you might be surprised what can be done. The point is, a plan was linked. The question is always more about whether we will work toward a better plan, or merely keep trying to stall progress?
 
Worth noting: if you want to provide universal coverage to American citizens, then I have already described how that can be accomplished without the fairy tale of magical mountains of tax revenues that we have never seen in our past and are unlikely to see in our future. It even has the added benefit of helping our low-income and poorer populations build wealth and have actual access to healthcare (since Medicaids' reimbursement schedules are lower, many providers cannot afford to take, or have to limit their acceptance of Medicaid recipients).

You're easily impressed. Indiana ranks a whopping 31st in health care systems:

How States Rank on Health Care
 
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Actually, you skip a lot. Much of advances in medicine are done at state schools doing work on the government dollar.

Indeed. But you are confusing "advances in medical science" with "advances in health care".

Your programs you mention are all limited and have very small effect, thus not capable of actually doing the job required

:doh This is like saying that because only one person out of a group of ten eats right, exercises, and is thus not obese, that eating right and exercising would not get the other nine in better shape. The programs are indeed limited to companies and states. Which means that right now, in the US, they have a better and more proven track record than single-payer, which no state has implemented.

So while it may impress some who don't understand the scope of our problem, the fact remains that you can't piecemeal this problem like that. Many are uninsured.

Many are. But not our poor - they have Medicaid. Furthermore, the policy proposal that you are refusing to address solves that by issuing them a health insurance plan at public expense.

Business pays quite a bit for insurance, and it hurts us in the world marketplace.

and in your model they would pay quite a bit for UHC and the effect would be the same, except that whereas before health insurance specifics were at least somewhat responsive to the consumers, now it is unresponsive entirely. Oh, and that you would also wreck a large portion of our economy by turning it into a state enterprise.

Even with the reforms you mention, we till pay more and get less for or money than the rest of the world.

1. That is incorrect. We pay more than the rest of the industrialized world and we get more than the rest of the industrialized world.
2. The reforms I mention would indeed put downward pressure on prices, as that is what they do when they are enacted as demonstrated.

Not, as for you merely saying 6% can't be done, you are right that we can't do what we don't try to do. Remove obstructionists from any body working to solve problems, and you might be surprised what can be done. The point is, a plan was linked. The question is always more about whether we will work toward a better plan, or merely keep trying to stall progress?

Oh, we'll all work together, remove obstruction, don't know until we try, pass the bill so we can find out what's in it, eh? :roll: Yeah. that works great. OR we can try to actually improve our healthcare system rather than simply turning over the rationing function to unelected bureaucrats while crashing the federal budget. You'll forgive me if I have a hard time looking at the ruins of socialism (and state control of the means of production of health care goods and services is absolutely that so don't start with the "oh no this is something totally different because socialism has no definition nor has anyone ever really tried it" crap) and saying "aha! here is progress!"

If you could show me where it was possible to collect that revenue you would have done so. However, even when top marginal tax rates were in the 90s, we didn't get anywhere close to the amount of money you are blithely insisting that we could bring in if we "all work together to a better plan" :roll:



But hey, I remain open to actual argument. Please demonstrate to me where any combination of rates (and we had some whoppers, back around the mid-20th-century) have ever produced the kind of additional tax revenue that you are suggesting we can pull in.
 
You're easily impressed. Indiana ranks a whopping 31st in health care systems:

How States Rank on Health Care

:doh Take a look at your own link, Boo. Notice how part of it reads "20070613" ? Now go click on the link and then go to the bottom and choose "View Source Articles".


That score is from a study that was released in June of 2007.


Indiana's medicaid reforms have been hugely successful, with an approval rating by participants of 98%. You're so big on preventative care? Indiana's program increased the amount of Medicaid recipients who sought out and received it from 39 to 59% in 12 months.

Woops? ;)
 
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:doh This is like saying that because only one person out of a group of ten eats right, exercises, and is thus not obese, that eating right and exercising would not get the other nine in better shape. The programs are indeed limited to companies and states. Which means that right now, in the US, they have a better and more proven track record than single-payer, which no state has implemented.

It's worth noting, now that I think back on it, that this is not entirely correct. We do have one model to look at to see how a single-payer model would function in this country. That program is Medicare. Massive amounts are lost to Fraud every year, the number of doctors willing to accept it is shrinking, and the costs (and that, after all, is what we are studying) are exploding, threatening to bankrupt the federal government in a short handful of years.
 
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