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Moderate Democrats are quitting on Obamacare

Middleground said:
And our survival birth rate better is that your... na-na-na-na-na-na! :roll:
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Hah, except that you were making your comment about cancer and how awesome Canada is with Cancer treatment.

Also, the higher infant mortality rate in the US has nothing to do with the health care system and everything to do with the increase in pregnancies among teens and women over 35. That cultural shift in who is having babies has driven a high pre-mature birth rate in the US which is responsible for the high infant mortality rate. That is a cultural issue, rather than a health care issue. And it also turns out that the survival rate of preemies is higher in the US than it is in Canada. So na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na back at you.

And even though Canada has a rather low preemie rate, they still rank second to last in first day infant mortality rate. The US ranks last, but they have a preemie rate of 13/1000 to Canada's 7/1000 which drives their high mortality rate.

So woohoo, Canadian women have children at a more normal age. :rock

... has nothing to do with your health care system.


And my nationalistic pride has nothing--I mean nothing--to do with why I think our healthcare system (as far from perfect as it is presently) is eons better than yours.
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No, it has EVERYTHING to do with it. Were you not so filled with national pride you might have actually dug into the statistics to see if they really say what you think they say.
 
jmotivator said:
Hah, except that you were making your comment about cancer and how awesome Canada is with Cancer treatment.
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I was? Where's my quote?



No, it has EVERYTHING to do with it. Were you not so filled with national pride you might have actually dug into the statistics to see if they really say what you think they say.
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I'm aware of some stats. I am also aware that overall, Canada statistically ranks better than American healthcare. You need to seriously accept that despite your national pride.
 
Middleground said:
I was? Where's my quote?
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How soon you forget...


I'm aware of some stats. I am also aware that overall, Canada statistically ranks better than American healthcare. You need to seriously accept that despite your national pride.
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You are likely thinking of the studies where they rank a whole multitude of pointless things like "access to insurance", and then weight the non-healthcare related statistics many times higher than the actual health care in the given country. In short, if their goal is to promote the magic of socialized medicine they rank high... but when you compare on ACTUAL HEALTH CARE they rate poorly... which is why with these pro-socialized medicine statistics they never seem to catch the nuance for why the actual health care data is skewed and chalk up all differences to socialized medicine.

As the old joke goes: 87% of Canadians love Canadian Health care while the other 13% are sick.
 
my original quote:
I can't speak for other countries, but I can assure you that a patient in Canada with lung cancer will be taken care of with the highest amount of urgency and care, no matter the initial prognosis.
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your quote:

Hah, except that you were making your comment about cancer and how awesome Canada is with Cancer treatment.
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Do I have to break it down for you or do you now see the light? I never mentioned anything about the success rate of oncology here in Canada. I just said that cancer patients will be well taken care of, no matter if they are in the 1st or 4th stage. I am fully aware that the American system has greater success with some forms of cancer (like breast) but what I was trying to do was stop with the ridiculous fallacy that Canadians with serious illnesses have to wait a whack load of time to get treatment. That is simply an untrue 'fact' that only the ignorant and uninformed believe.


You are likely thinking of the studies where they rank a whole multitude of pointless things like "access to insurance", and then weight the non-healthcare related statistics many times higher than the actual health care in the given country. In short, if their goal is to promote the magic of socialized medicine they rank high... but when you compare on ACTUAL HEALTH CARE they rate poorly... which is why with these pro-socialized medicine statistics they never seem to catch the nuance for why the actual health care data is skewed and chalk up all differences to socialized medicine.
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For ****'s sake, when half your population does not have easy access to healthcare, then it's going to suck. That is the whole ****ing point.

As the old joke goes: 87% of Canadians love Canadian Health care while the other 13% are sick.
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Don't quit your day job.
 
Middleground said:
Did you actually read it?

Here, let me help you. Here's a chart that will give you good visual effect:

View attachment 67151146
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Hate to repeat myself but facts are facts.


The nonpartisan Fraser Institute reported that 46,159 Canadians sought medical treatment outside of Canada in 2011, as wait times increased 104 percent — more than double — compared with statistics from 1993.

Specialist physicians surveyed across 12 specialties and 10 provinces reported an average total wait time of 19 weeks between the time a general practitioner refers a patient and the time a specialist provides elective treatment — the longest they have ever recorded.
 
sawyerloggingon said:
Hate to repeat myself but facts are facts.


The nonpartisan Fraser Institute reported that 46,159 Canadians sought medical treatment outside of Canada in 2011, as wait times increased 104 percent — more than double — compared with statistics from 1993.

Specialist physicians surveyed across 12 specialties and 10 provinces reported an average total wait time of 19 weeks between the time a general practitioner refers a patient and the time a specialist provides elective treatment — the longest they have ever recorded.
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Not sure where you're getting your information. But I don't think it's accurate:

Myth: There are long waits for care, which compromise access to care.There are no waits for urgent or primary care in Canada. There are reasonable waits for most specialists' care, and much longer waits for elective surgery. Yes, there are those instances where a patient can wait up to a month for radiation therapy for breast cancer or prostate cancer, for example. However, the wait has nothing to do with money per se, but everything to do with the lack of radiation therapists. Despite such waits, however, it is noteworthy that Canada boasts lower incident and mortality rates than the U.S. for all cancers combined, according to the U.S. Cancer Statistics Working Group and the Canadian Cancer Society. Moreover, fewer Canadians (11.3 percent) than Americans (14.4 percent) admit unmet health care needs.

Read more: Debunking Canadian health care myths - The Denver Post Debunking Canadian health care myths - The Denver Post
Read The Denver Post's Terms of Use of its content: Terms of Use - The Denver Post
Follow us: @Denverpost on Twitter | Denverpost on Facebook

The truth, as usual, is something in between the two extremes. Does Canada have problems in its health care system? Absolutely. Does the Canadian system match with the horror film depiction of the Republican party? Absolutely not. In analyzing and health care system which is as complex and vast as the Canadian and American system it is not useful to focus on individual anecdotes. After all, if you look into any systems covering that many people you will always be able to find some failures. One needs to only watch Sicko and Jon Stossel reports back-to-back to find multiple stories of people who have been failed by both systems. Instead, we should focus on the overall data from each country to judge which system is superior.

(Snip)

The truth, as usual, is something in between the two extremes. Does Canada have problems in its health care system? Absolutely. Does the Canadian system match with the horror film depiction of the Republican party? Absolutely not. In analyzing and health care system which is as complex and vast as the Canadian and American system it is not useful to focus on individual anecdotes. After all, if you look into any systems covering that many people you will always be able to find some failures. One needs to only watch Sicko and Jon Stossel reports back-to-back to find multiple stories of people who have been failed by both systems. Instead, we should focus on the overall data from each country to judge which system is superior.

(Snip)


Conclusion:

In America we spend more and yet still receive less health care overall in comparison to our Canadian friends up North. Perhaps instead of trying to run away from the "we will become Canada" argument the Obama administration should simply concede the argument. In reality, the plan proposed by Democrats has significant differences with the Canadian system. Most importantly, the United States system at least intends to maintain a private insurance system. Still, without a doubt the Democratic proposal would make our health care system more similar to the Canadian system. If this is true the data above reveals that actually may not be bad thing.

Health care reform fact or fiction part four: Is Canada's health care better or worse? - National Political Buzz | Examiner.com

Canadians happy with primary health care, study says - The Globe and Mail
 
Boo Radley;1062122240[B said:
]Not sure where you're getting your information. But I don't think it's accurate:[/B]

Myth: There are long waits for care, which compromise access to care.There are no waits for urgent or primary care in Canada. There are reasonable waits for most specialists' care, and much longer waits for elective surgery. Yes, there are those instances where a patient can wait up to a month for radiation therapy for breast cancer or prostate cancer, for example. However, the wait has nothing to do with money per se, but everything to do with the lack of radiation therapists. Despite such waits, however, it is noteworthy that Canada boasts lower incident and mortality rates than the U.S. for all cancers combined, according to the U.S. Cancer Statistics Working Group and the Canadian Cancer Society. Moreover, fewer Canadians (11.3 percent) than Americans (14.4 percent) admit unmet health care needs.

Read more: Debunking Canadian health care myths - The Denver Post Debunking Canadian health care myths - The Denver Post
Read The Denver Post's Terms of Use of its content: Terms of Use - The Denver Post
Follow us: @Denverpost on Twitter | Denverpost on Facebook

The truth, as usual, is something in between the two extremes. Does Canada have problems in its health care system? Absolutely. Does the Canadian system match with the horror film depiction of the Republican party? Absolutely not. In analyzing and health care system which is as complex and vast as the Canadian and American system it is not useful to focus on individual anecdotes. After all, if you look into any systems covering that many people you will always be able to find some failures. One needs to only watch Sicko and Jon Stossel reports back-to-back to find multiple stories of people who have been failed by both systems. Instead, we should focus on the overall data from each country to judge which system is superior.

(Snip)

The truth, as usual, is something in between the two extremes. Does Canada have problems in its health care system? Absolutely. Does the Canadian system match with the horror film depiction of the Republican party? Absolutely not. In analyzing and health care system which is as complex and vast as the Canadian and American system it is not useful to focus on individual anecdotes. After all, if you look into any systems covering that many people you will always be able to find some failures. One needs to only watch Sicko and Jon Stossel reports back-to-back to find multiple stories of people who have been failed by both systems. Instead, we should focus on the overall data from each country to judge which system is superior.

(Snip)


Conclusion:

In America we spend more and yet still receive less health care overall in comparison to our Canadian friends up North. Perhaps instead of trying to run away from the "we will become Canada" argument the Obama administration should simply concede the argument. In reality, the plan proposed by Democrats has significant differences with the Canadian system. Most importantly, the United States system at least intends to maintain a private insurance system. Still, without a doubt the Democratic proposal would make our health care system more similar to the Canadian system. If this is true the data above reveals that actually may not be bad thing.

Health care reform fact or fiction part four: Is Canada's health care better or worse? - National Political Buzz | Examiner.com

Canadians happy with primary health care, study says - The Globe and Mail
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My source was pretty clear, nonpartisan Fraser institute. The fact is Canadians leave Canada by the tens of thousands per year for health care. Those are just the ones that can afford it so you have to believe there are tens of thousands more that would if they could.
 
All this chatter does not change the fact the certain Dems are moving against Obamacare, probably because their constituents are calling/writing them. It doesn't matter what happens in Canada, the Obamacare law is a POS, pure and simple. It's plainly obvious that Obama himself didn't care what the law said, as long as he could get something passed and take credit for it. It's the usual symbolism over substance from the Left. I mean he needs stuff that he can write about in his future book deal after leaving office.
 
sawyerloggingon said:
My source was pretty clear, nonpartisan Fraser institute. The fact is Canadians leave Canada by the tens of thousands per year for health care. Those are just the ones that can afford it so you have to believe there are tens of thousands more that would if they could.
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Two things: 1) there are sources that rebut it, just. Non-partisan and 2) Canada is but one system. Cherry picking is not addressing the entirety of the argument. Btw, I can show you Americans going to Canada and that Canadians report being happier with their care than we are. Then we can more on to other systems, like say France.
 
Middleground said:
Is that what you really think, especially when you look at the bigger picture?
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:confused: If the point of a healthcare system is not to provide cures to the sick and comfort to the suffering... then what exactly is it for?
 
Boo Radley said:
Perhaps I did confuse, but that was an example of government money doing good work many often attribute, Inaccurately, to the American market place. It's government money. Government institutions.

And no matter the reasons, limited is limited. The 9 in 10 will still get ill, still get hurt, still use care you will pay for. Nothing you do outside of denying care will change that. So, we should devise a plan that effectively deals with the problems we have and just a small segment of the population.

And in tis country, it pays to be either very poor or wealthy enough. To be working poor is to be lost in no man's land. Talk about incentives (something many think they understand but don't).
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Lower income Americans are in better health than comparable Canadians. Twice as many American seniors with below-median incomes self-report "excellent" health compared to Canadian seniors (11.7 percent versus 5.8 percent). Conversely, white Canadian young adults with below-median incomes are 20 percent more likely than lower income Americans to describe their health as "fair or poor."

And no, health care can be removed from employment. This is part of the appeal of doing business overseas. They don't have to deal with the cost of healthcare (or paying a decent wage).
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I wholeheartedly agree that healthcare can be removed from employment. But when you simply increase the taxes that the employer pays in order to fund government healthcare, you havent' exactly reduced his costs - you've increased them, because now he has to pay for healthcare and the government to run it.

And no, we get more fluff, for the wealthy, but in terms of access, we get less. And if you're among the working poor here, you get less of everything measured.

As for downward pressure, that's not enough. The pressure of those things you mention simply will not do enough.
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In places where it's been implemented we've seen reductions in prices for normal procedures to half of the standard cost. I'd say that's pretty darn impressive.

It will still be too expensive for most, we'll still be paying for the uninsured. And we'll still be paying more for less than the rest of the world.

Your last part is more snarky than anything else. The point is working together as problem solvers is more effective than either being ideologues or being to concerned with being elected. Work on solving real issues.
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Right. So, just to be clear, you continue to be unable to demonstrate any combination of tax rates that at any point in our history have ever even come remotely close to producing the revenue that you would require to fund a massive new entitlement such as Single-Payer?
 
cpwill said:
Lower income Americans are in better health than comparable Canadians. Twice as many American seniors with below-median incomes self-report "excellent" health compared to Canadian seniors (11.7 percent versus 5.8 percent). Conversely, white Canadian young adults with below-median incomes are 20 percent more likely than lower income Americans to describe their health as "fair or poor."



I wholeheartedly agree that healthcare can be removed from employment. But when you simply increase the taxes that the employer pays in order to fund government healthcare, you havent' exactly reduced his costs - you've increased them, because now he has to pay for healthcare and the government to run it.



In places where it's been implemented we've seen reductions in prices for normal procedures to half of the standard cost. I'd say that's pretty darn impressive.



Right. So, just to be clear, you continue to be unable to demonstrate any combination of tax rates that at any point in our history have ever even come remotely close to producing the revenue that you would require to fund a massive new entitlement such as Single-Payer?
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We can play dueling sources if you want, but there Re still too points (and only two), 1) Canadians are happier than we are with their care and 2) Canada is not the only system out there.
 
Boo Radley said:
1) Canadians are happier than we are with their care and 2) Canada is not the only system out there.
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But are they happier with their system BECAUSE of that system or are they happy because they know for any "complex" procedure they need done quicker, they can just come to the U.S. for treatment?

I'm only asking because when surveys are done, sometimes the question is a little bit misleading. For instance, if you were to ask me "Am I happy where I am living" because it's somewhat in a country area, I would say yes. However, that is just because the city is only 15 miles from me. If you were to ask me the same question and I didn't live near a city I would say no.

Regardless, I think the question of Health Care cannot really be compared directly to another country because they are always differing factors so in that I agree.
 
TheNextEra said:
But are they happier with their system BECAUSE of that system or are they happy because they know for any "complex" procedure they need done quicker, they can just come to the U.S. for treatment?

I'm only asking because when surveys are done, sometimes the question is a little bit misleading. For instance, if you were to ask me "Am I happy where I am living" because it's somewhat in a country area, I would say yes. However, that is just because the city is only 15 miles from me. If you were to ask me the same question and I didn't live near a city I would say no.

Regardless, I think the question of Health Care cannot really be compared directly to another country because they are always differing factors so in that I agree.
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As I linked earlier, we wait here, so I doubt that. The thing is here, if you have a lot of money, you get good and fast service. If not, you wait. Or not get the care to start with. Most Canadians I suspect are not that wealthy, so they likely Appreciate actually have care. And you can find many links showing they really don't wait for urgent care.

But like I said, lets not pretend they are the only system out there.
 
Boo Radley said:
We can play dueling sources if you want, but there Re still too points (and only two), 1) Canadians are happier than we are with their care and 2) Canada is not the only system out there.
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1. Canadians are probably happier in general than we are. Canadians also have the safety valve of the U.S.
2. You are correct - Canada probably does single payer far more effectively than we could.


But just to be clear, you still have yet to identify the magical source of free money that is going to pay for all this?
 
cpwill said:
1. Canadians are probably happier in general than we are. Canadians also have the safety valve of the U.S.
2. You are correct - Canada probably does single payer far more effectively than we could.


But just to be clear, you still have yet to identify the magical source of free money that is going to pay for all this?
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Yes I have. I gave you a link on a plan. As there was nothing magical nor free about it. You're merely playing games.
 
Boo Radley said:
As I linked earlier, we wait here, so I doubt that.
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Not as long as they do, and we have greater access. There are more MRI machines in Atlanta Georgia than there are in the entire country of Canada.
 
Boo Radley said:
Yes I have. I gave you a link on a plan. As there was nothing magical nor free about it. You're merely playing games.
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Ah, no. You linked me claims that increased tax rates would magically produce this revenue. Then I pointed out to you that tax rates much higher than the ones proposed hadn't produced produced as much revenue as your links assumed would be coming in. Your response to that so far has been.... nothing.
 
cpwill said:
Not as long as they do, and we have greater access. There are more MRI machines in Atlanta Georgia than there are in the entire country of Canada.
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Depends on where your income. Seem here wait longer. Others not.
 
Boo Radley said:
Depends on where your income.
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not so much. If you are low income we have Medicaid.

Seem here wait longer. Others not.
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Wide majority not. I'll take the net aggregate superior system for a few hundred billion, Alex.
 
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