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Detroit Files for Largest Municipal Bankruptcy in US History

Re: Detroit emergency manager files bankruptcy

a351 said:
Let's not be obtuse. The fact that five individuals *liked* the OP should be indicative in and of itself. On many other assorted sites and social media I've seen others take glee in the announcement. Politics at its worst.

In the same way that New Jersey's anemic recovery under Christie has proven conservative principles to be inept and inapplicable in any scenario. Or, we could concede the fact that some issues extend beyond purely political terms.
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Don't know enough about New Jersey economics to argue that. Let me know when a New Jersey city files for bankruptcy and one that is spending over 100 billion dollars more a year for the past five years than it takes in?
 
Re: Detroit emergency manager files bankruptcy

Conservative said:
Your opinion noted. Don't think the population loss anything to do with the bloated pensions authorized for public employees
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It has to do with why they can't pay them though. Think it through.
 
Re: Detroit emergency manager files bankruptcy

molten_dragon said:
It has to do with why they can't pay them though. Think it through.
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Right, they cannot pay them because like with the Federal SS program the govt. spent the money and don't have enough working people to make up the difference. No pension should ever have to be paid for by current workers. It really is scary how the Federal Govt. has brainwashed so many people.
 
Re: Detroit emergency manager files bankruptcy

molten_dragon said:
It has to do with why they can't pay them though. Think it through.
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Part of not being able to keep up with current outlays is the fact that the local govt never adjusted it's spending to reflect a changing tax base or economic realities. I don't think you can blame that on something as ill defined as "liberalism", but it definitely points to politicians and voters having a clear hand in the issue
 
Re: Detroit emergency manager files bankruptcy

Dr. Chuckles said:
Part of not being able to keep up with current outlays is the fact that the local govt never adjusted it's spending to reflect a changing tax base or economic realities. I don't think you can blame that on something as ill defined as "liberalism", but it definitely points to politicians and voters having a clear hand in the issue
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Sure, Detroit did a piss poor job of reducing the city's expenses when the population started leaving.

However some expenses are hard to reduce. When you promise someone a pension of $X/month, you can't just stop paying them that, even when you lose half your taxpayers, and the property values of the other half take a dive.
 
Re: Detroit emergency manager files bankruptcy

Conservative said:
Don't know enough about New Jersey economics to argue that. Let me know when a New Jersey city files for bankruptcy and one that is spending over 100 billion dollars more a year for the past five years than it takes in?
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Find me a city that runs deficits of 100 billion annually and we'll talk it over on my yacht.
 
Re: Detroit emergency manager files bankruptcy

a351 said:
Find me a city that runs deficits of 100 billion annually and we'll talk it over on my yacht.
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You are right, my mistake it was 100 million a year being spent more than is being taken in, NOT billion
 
Re: Detroit emergency manager files bankruptcy

molten_dragon said:
Sure, Detroit did a piss poor job of reducing the city's expenses when the population started leaving.

However some expenses are hard to reduce. When you promise someone a pension of $X/month, you can't just stop paying them that, even when you lose half your taxpayers, and the property values of the other half take a dive.
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From my understanding, the local govt did little to nothing to change it's spending habits, even when taking on new obligations. So it wasn't as if the problem simply appeared and continued based on past obligations.

It's been a continuous march where the local govt seemingly just ignored the issue
 
Re: Detroit emergency manager files bankruptcy

A big reason why the city is taking in less revenue is because they have lost a big part of what made their workforce middle class. They have now replaced a lot of lost jobs with low wage jobs that further eroded revenue and then you have people leaving the state to find work which further eroded revenue. You also have a host of other issues that involve corruption of politicians who did not properly fund pensions and handing over public municipalities to private interest on a silver platter. Now poverty and crime has gone up and they can't even fund police to respond to it. And, then you have that problem of the city's hundreds of millions of dollars in unpaid taxes.
 
greyhat said:
Umm. You have you, your financial planner/adviser or fund manager to blame for holding these if you do. It's called default risk for a reason.
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I bought them 25 years ago, Greyhat. The decision long ago became my responsibility. Unlike others, I don't look to shift blame.
 
MaggieD said:
I bought them 25 years ago, Greyhat. The decision long ago became my responsibility. Unlike others, I don't look to shift blame.
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Glad to hear you don't blame anyone.
 
greyhat said:
Glad to hear you don't blame anyone.
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Oh, wait! I blame the City of Detroit politicians who don't know how to balance a budget, spend billions they don't have, promise wages and pensions they know damned well they can't pay, etc., etc. People (and cities) who run fiscal whorehouses and don't pay their bills don't escape responsibility. I blame them.
 
Re: Detroit emergency manager files bankruptcy

Dapper Andy said:
It's this sort of thinking that put Detroit into such financial difficulty in the first place.

The Western world needs to start investing money wisely. Wall Street firms that collected money will or have already paid back loans but any bail out to Detroit will do nothing more than kick this can down the road until they need to be bailed out again.
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Since when has wise investment of funds ever been a consideration of our government? Money well spent is measured by the number of votes it brings in.
 
MaggieD said:
Oh, wait! I blame the City of Detroit politicians who don't know how to balance a budget, spend billions they don't have, promise wages and pensions they know damned well they can't pay, etc., etc. People (and cities) who run fiscal whorehouses and don't pay their bills don't escape responsibility. I blame them.
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Blame them for the mess; however you can't blame them for you investing in their bonds.
 
MaggieD said:
Oh, wait! I blame the City of Detroit politicians who don't know how to balance a budget, spend billions they don't have, promise wages and pensions they know damned well they can't pay, etc., etc. People (and cities) who run fiscal whorehouses and don't pay their bills don't escape responsibility. I blame them.
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greyhat said:
Blame them for the mess; however you can't blame them for you investing in their bonds.
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Can you really blame them though when the people keep voting them back into office?

The blame lies in the people for allowing this to happen. It's not like Detroit deteriorated overnight. It's not even like this started with the recession either. The city has been like this now for half a century.
 
haymarket said:
A big reason Orr did this was that the major creditors and pension holders would
not give in to his demands. I strongly hope and pray that the judge will see the very practical difference between major corporations who hold bonds with the city and people on pensions who pushed a broom or cleaned bathrooms or drove a bus for 35 years to get a small pension. The judge should treat the two very very differently.
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Oh yes of-course, it's the greedy creditors who've caused this long decline, not the City Leaders, not the twisted ideology that allowed them to devolve down into bankruptcy instead of adapting and changing with the times....

UnFreakinBelievable...

Yes the city politicians and massive public sector unions sucked it dry, as its residents continuosly kept ellecting one Effed up Democrat after another.

So of course its time to employ the dreaded " eat the rich " tactic and completely ignore the cancer that destroyed the Cities finances...
 
Dapper Andy said:
Can you really blame them though when the people keep voting them back into office?

The blame lies in the people for allowing this to happen. It's not like Detroit deteriorated overnight. It's not even like this started with the recession either. The city has been like this now for half a century.
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People don't know the fiscal condition of their state. They don't know what pension benefits are promised to public sector workers. They don't know how under-funded pension plans are . . . how many cops they have on the street they don't need (now that their population has gone from 1.8 million to just over 700,000 . . . they don't know how union contracts constrict a city's ability to fire workers . . . lay them off . . . they don't know how politicians are paying their brothers-in-law to punch in on the city timeclock at 7 AM in the morning, go to their "other jobs" and punch back out at 5 PM.

Put the blame where it belongs. On the dufus's that mismanaged and stole from the city coffers.
 
Why don't they just have the Detroit Tigers, Red Wings, Pistons, Lions and Eminem bail them out?
 
ANYONE WANNA JOIN ME IN FOUNDING OMNI CONSUMER PRODUCTS (OCP) CORPORATION?

We can buy up Detroit's debt, take over the police force, and build our own Robocops!!! Wooohoooo!!!
 
Mach said:
Sure, he'll see the vast majority of the U.S. that doesn't use cartel and monopolies (unions, government) and relies on 401Ks and the like instead. When they lose their money, taxpayers don't cover that bill, so fair is indeed fair.
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So in your value system breaking your contractual promises is simply something done because your extremist beliefs let you do it.
 
haymarket said:
So in your value system breaking your contractual promises is simply something done because your extremist beliefs let you do it.
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Breaking contractual promises is done all the time. There's a cost. Taxpayers are better off paying that cost and letting union aristocracy get 401K's like the rest of America.
 
Fenton said:
Oh yes of-course, it's the greedy creditors who've caused this long decline, not the City Leaders, not the twisted ideology that allowed them to devolve down into bankruptcy instead of adapting and changing with the times....

UnFreakinBelievable...

Yes the city politicians and massive public sector unions sucked it dry, as its residents continuosly kept ellecting one Effed up Democrat after another.

So of course its time to employ the dreaded " eat the rich " tactic and completely ignore the cancer that destroyed the Cities finances...
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And to think that all that happened during fifty years when the population of Detroit doubled, hundreds of new businesses created more jobs than ever, tax revenues were at record highs for year after year and people from the suburbs flooded into Detroit bringing their money and values with them.

Imagine that!
 
MaggieD said:
People don't know the fiscal condition of their state. They don't know what pension benefits are promised to public sector workers. They don't know how under-funded pension plans are . . . how many cops they have on the street they don't need (now that their population has gone from 1.8 million to just over 700,000 . . . they don't know how union contracts constrict a city's ability to fire workers . . . lay them off . . . they don't know how politicians are paying their brothers-in-law to punch in on the city timeclock at 7 AM in the morning, go to their "other jobs" and punch back out at 5 PM.

Put the blame where it belongs. On the dufus's that mismanaged and stole from the city coffers.
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Their city government is the people and I say they knew very well what was happening. It was in their face daily. To not know the city is broke and the unions will not budge a dime is known all over the country. This is nothing new to all the outsiders around the country let alone the people living in the city of Detroit. They knew all right, they just didn't give a ****. Kick the can down the road is the mentality of most all our government bodies. Look no further than DC, it is a mess with 17 trillion in debt and growing by a trillion a year and no one cares. This country is headed to the same place as Detroit. But we know where it's headed, no denying that, the people know.
 
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