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Edward Snowden Asylum To Be Offered By Venezuela,President Nicolás Maduro Says[W:271]

Edward Snowden Asylum To Be Offered By Venezuela,President Nicolás Maduro Says[

Geoist said:
There is no whistleblower protocol for people in his position. We already debunked that myth a few pages back.
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I don't see that..anyhow. When he was a federal employee at the CIA, he could have raised his grievances thru the IG's office, he could have gone to the Congress, etc yet he did not. Instead he took advantage of his clearance and position to get deeper into the Gov's treasure chest of secrets; he moved onto Dell and then Booz because he was filtering out how to get right to the source, which he did in his last position at Booz. He kept digging his way into the NSA by digging himself deeper and deeper into the infrastructure. When he found what he wanted, he stole it and fled the country. There is nothing honorable about stealing; furthermore, there is nothing more cowardly than picking a fight and running.

What Snowden did is leak highly classified information, and illegal act, and overrode an entire system of government's check and balances as it relates to the program's of the NSA. Which by the way, while immoral to some, are legal nonetheless.

Is he so mighty and superior that he alone is to decide what is and shouldn't be kept secret by the government??
 
Edward Snowden Asylum To Be Offered By Venezuela,President Nicolás Maduro Says[

DA60 said:
Snowden, by definition, IS a whistleblower.

'whis·tle·blow·er or whis·tle-blow·er or whistle blower (hwsl-blr, ws-)
n.
One who reveals wrongdoing within an organization to the public or to those in positions of authority:'

whistleblower - definition of whistleblower by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.


He's also a hero and thank goodness he did what he did.
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This isn't about a literal definition in the dictionary for whether or not it would apply is subjective. Who says the NSA is wrong, you? What if I don't? Then it doesn't apply?

Whether or not he receives whistleblower status is based in applicable laws and legal protocol not the dictionary's literal definition.
 
Re: Edward Snowden Asylum To Be Offered By Venezuela,President Nicolás Maduro Says[

greyhat said:
I don't see that..anyhow. When he was a federal employee at the CIA, he could have raised his grievances thru the IG's office, he could have gone to the Congress, etc
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You think complaining about a corrupt overreaching government to that same corrupt overreaching government would accomplish anything?
 
Re: Edward Snowden Asylum To Be Offered By Venezuela,President Nicolás Maduro Says[W:

Grey Hat. Spend some time considering this. The federal government has been spying on its citizens. The fact that it does that is classified. Is it classified for reasons of national security or is it classified because the government simply doesn't want the people to know it is spying on them? If you think about it, the reason has to be the latter. Intercepting a text message I might send to one of my sisters is hardly a question of national security. You can say that intercepting a terrorist's text message is a matter of national security but you have to know in advance that it is a suspected terrorist in order to justify it as such.

The fact is not some, but most classified information is classified not because knowledge of it will harm the U.S. but because it will embarrass the U.S. Informing the public of this is actually heroic because it is a single man standing up to the giant government. It is heroic because it lets the public know that its government is doing something wrong. It is illegal because the government makes it so, not because it hurts anybody. So Snowden's actions are both illegal and heroic in the eyes of many. Common sense should lead you to that conclusion.
 
Re: Edward Snowden Asylum To Be Offered By Venezuela,President Nicolás Maduro Says[W:

fmw said:
Grey Hat. Spend some time considering this. The federal government has been spying on its citizens. The fact that it does that is classified. Is it classified for reasons of national security or is it classified because the government simply doesn't want the people to know it is spying on them? If you think about it, the reason has to be the latter.
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The government's reaction would be very very different if only the American people knew about PRISM and not every person in the world. Or other governments we've spied on. Or terrorists who (hopefully not) might be smart enough to change the way they operate to avoid due scrutiny by PRISM.

fmw said:
Intercepting a text message I might send to one of my sisters is hardly a question of national security. You can say that intercepting a terrorist's text message is a matter of national security but you have to know in advance that it is a suspected terrorist in order to justify it as such.
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If the actual text message was being checked, then the situation is obviously unconstitutional and wrong. But that's not the case at all. The data being monitored is metadata. Information about what numbers you call, and how often. If the NSA see's something potentially suspicious, they ask the DOJ for permission. Personally, I'm more concerned about how the DOJ determines whether or not to give the NSA a warrant than I am about PRISM. From what I've heard, of the 500 something requests for warrants, over 95% have been granted. I don't know the specifics of each case, or the process, but I think that's the link that needs to be strongest, in order to protect the rights of Americans.

fmw said:
The fact is not some, but most classified information is classified not because knowledge of it will harm the U.S. but because it will embarrass the U.S. Informing the public of this is actually heroic because it is a single man standing up to the giant government. It is heroic because it lets the public know that its government is doing something wrong. It is illegal because the government makes it so, not because it hurts anybody. So Snowden's actions are both illegal and heroic in the eyes of many. Common sense should lead you to that conclusion.
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This knowledge is classified because of the diplomatic fallout that results from, for example, France realizing we spy on them. It's classified because of the increased difficulty in tracking and capturing terrorists when they realize we're spying on them in this manner. At the end of the day, Snowden's actions only hurt America's diplomatic ties and ability to preempt terrorist actions.
 
Re: Edward Snowden Asylum To Be Offered By Venezuela,President Nicolás Maduro Says[W:

repeter said:
The government's reaction would be very very different if only the American people knew about PRISM and not every person in the world. Or other governments we've spied on. Or terrorists who (hopefully not) might be smart enough to change the way they operate to avoid due scrutiny by PRISM.



If the actual text message was being checked, then the situation is obviously unconstitutional and wrong. But that's not the case at all. The data being monitored is metadata. Information about what numbers you call, and how often. If the NSA see's something potentially suspicious, they ask the DOJ for permission. Personally, I'm more concerned about how the DOJ determines whether or not to give the NSA a warrant than I am about PRISM. From what I've heard, of the 500 something requests for warrants, over 95% have been granted. I don't know the specifics of each case, or the process, but I think that's the link that needs to be strongest, in order to protect the rights of Americans.



This knowledge is classified because of the diplomatic fallout that results from, for example, France realizing we spy on them. It's classified because of the increased difficulty in tracking and capturing terrorists when they realize we're spying on them in this manner. At the end of the day, Snowden's actions only hurt America's diplomatic ties and ability to preempt terrorist actions.
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The difference between you and me is that you believe what the government tells you and I know better than to do that.
 
Re: Edward Snowden Asylum To Be Offered By Venezuela,President Nicolás Maduro Says[W:

fmw said:
The difference between you and me is that you believe what the government tells you and I know better than to do that.
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No, the difference is more fundamental than that. I believe that government can do good, and you don't (I hope I'm not putting words in your mouth that you wouldn't agree with).
 
Edward Snowden Asylum To Be Offered By Venezuela,President Nicolás Maduro Says[

greyhat said:
Prove it!
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Am still waiting for proof..., com'on, where is the proof????
 
Re: Edward Snowden Asylum To Be Offered By Venezuela,President Nicolás Maduro Says[

greyhat said:
Am still waiting for proof..., com'on, where is the proof????
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Look at the constitutional enumerated powers granted to the Fed and tell me where the NSA is provided for.

Oh and you might want to take a quick gander at the 4th amendment. Possibly even the 5th and the 14th.
 
Edward Snowden Asylum To Be Offered By Venezuela,President Nicolás Maduro Says[

blaxshep said:
Look at the constitutional enumerated powers granted to the Fed and tell me where the NSA is provided for.

Oh and you might want to take a quick gander at the 4th amendment. Possibly even the 5th and the 14th.
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LOL- so you mean to tell me that The House of Representatives & The Senate passed laws that SCOTUS has used to establish legal precedent and POTUS & The Executive branch have used to implement the NSA's programs while under the watch of The Senate and other appropriate review only for us to find out that according to one-all-might and omnipotent criminal thief coward that its all a facade and this is just one big conspiracy to undermine our privacy?? Really?! Com'on...

You do not have a right to privacy over the electronic spectrum- period. You do not have a right to email, texts, cell calls etc- and for the 50th time no one is "listening" to your calls or reading your text messages or emails..collecting metadata isn't protected under the Constitution..period.
 
Re: Edward Snowden Asylum To Be Offered By Venezuela,President Nicolás Maduro Says[

greyhat said:
..collecting metadata isn't protected under the Constitution..period.
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The heart of the matter. Well said.

A physical equivalent would be for someone to see you at the park, and note that you talked to person x for 10 minutes, person y for 10 minutes, and then to person x for another 5 minutes. It's well within the plain view doctrine, and completely legal.
 
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Re: Edward Snowden Asylum To Be Offered By Venezuela,President Nicolás Maduro Says[

greyhat said:
LOL- so you mean to tell me that The House of Representatives & The Senate passed laws that SCOTUS has used to establish legal precedent and POTUS & The Executive branch have used to implement the NSA's programs while under the watch of The Senate and other appropriate review only for us to find out that according to one-all-might and omnipotent criminal thief coward that its all a facade and this is just one big conspiracy to undermine our privacy?? Really?! Com'on...

You do not have a right to privacy over the electronic spectrum- period. You do not have a right to email, texts, cell calls etc- and for the 50th time no one is "listening" to your calls or reading your text messages or emails..collecting metadata isn't protected under the Constitution..period.
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Wrong! I'm surprised they didn't ask the NSA for George Zimmerman's and Treyvon Martin's phone calls.
 
Re: Edward Snowden Asylum To Be Offered By Venezuela,President Nicolás Maduro Says[W:

Slyfox696 said:
You're wishing to deal in hypotheticals, and I'm dealing with facts. I cannot answer your question without facts.
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Too hard to think about I know...too bad.
 
Edward Snowden Asylum To Be Offered By Venezuela,President Nicolás Maduro Says[

DaveFagan said:
Wrong! I'm surprised they didn't ask the NSA for George Zimmerman's and Treyvon Martin's phone calls.
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Why would they???....oh wait, Big Brother was not only watching with his satellite but also recording the call- heck the neighbors alarm camera was zoomed in on the whole thing. The NSA likes to hear and see... Please!
 
Re: Edward Snowden Asylum To Be Offered By Venezuela,President Nicolás Maduro Says[

Update: Looks Like Snowden has decided to stay in Russia.

Snowden says he wants asylum in Russia.....

MOSCOW (AP) — Edward Snowden emerged from weeks of hiding in a Moscow airport Friday, still defiant but willing to stop leaking secrets about U.S. surveillance programs if Russia will give him asylum until he can move on to Latin America.

Snowden said he was ready to meet President Vladimir Putin's condition that he stop leaking secrets if it means Russia would give him shelter that could eventually help him get to Latin America. There was no immediate response from Putin's office, but speakers of both houses of the Kremlin-controlled parliament spoke in support of Snowden's plea.

Vyacheslav Nikonov, a senior lawmaker with the main Kremlin party, described Snowden as "a bit nervous but smiling" and noted his "perfect haircut." He said that when asked to describe his stay at Moscow's Sheremetyevo airport, Snowden answered with one word: "Safe.".....snip~

Snowden says he wants asylum in Russia
Associated Press – 3 hrs ago <<<<< More Here.
 
Re: Edward Snowden Asylum To Be Offered By Venezuela,President Nicolás Maduro Says[

greyhat said:
Why would they???....oh wait, Big Brother was not only watching with his satellite but also recording the call- heck the neighbors alarm camera was zoomed in on the whole thing. The NSA likes to hear and see... Please!
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Some of your "talking points" in case you misplaced your copy

NSA Talking Points On Utah Data Center: We're Teaming Up With Tech Companies To 'Protect' The Internet | Techdirt

"•DISCUSS THE FOR TAKING NATIONAL ACTION TO THE CYBERSECURITY PROBLEMS WE FACE. ◦US DEPENDENCE ON THE INTERNET PROBABLY GREATER THAN ANY OTHER NATION
◦NOT JUST MEANS OF COMMUNICATIONS BUT DATA IS THERE As WELL -- FINANCIAL DATA, DATA
◦CYBERSPACE CONTROLS OUR CRITICAL INFRASTRUCTURE -- BANKING, ENERGY, AIR TRAFFIC CONTROL, UTILITIES
◦THREAT IS GROWING -- INFRASTRUCTURE TARGETTED FOR AND POTENTIALLY FOR DISRUPTION OR DESTRUCTION BY GROWING NUMBER OF AND ACTORS"
 
Re: Edward Snowden Asylum To Be Offered By Venezuela,President Nicolás Maduro Says[

DA60 said:
Prove it using links to unbiased, factual proof.



Edward Snowden PRISM: Ron Paul Approves Of Snowden's Leaks
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Look at the 4th amendment, protection against unlawful search and seizures.

"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

Let me break this down. First, its the right to be "...secure in [our] persons, houses, papers and effects..." Metadata is like me watching you talk to somebody, and taking note of that. It isn't intruding physically into our houses, persons, nor is it reading our papers or going through our effects.

"...Searches and seizures..." Metadata is neither taking anything from us, nor is it searching anything that belongs to anyone. It's observing interactions taking place. It is not a search because its intent is not to check what we're saying.

"...Particularly describing the places to be searched..." Imagine that all our electronic interactions are moved into a physical realm. Our personal data would be stuff we carry on us. Our text messages and so forth (the words in the conversations) are like two people talking face to face.

And metadata is like us walking up to someone and shaking their hand, waving at them, or hugging them. But even less so, because hugging vs. shaking hands tells us how close the two people are. Metadata doesn't even do that. It does nothing more than show us who is talking to whom. Not what the contents of the conversation are, nor does it provide us with any information about the people themselves.

I don't think that the entire process is fully constitutional, however. If there is one link in the chain I'm worried about, it is the process by which the DOJ gives the NSA a warrant to probe into the individuals they've observed. I don't know much about this process. I don't know what the checks and balances are, what the requirements are, all I know is that over 95% of 500 requests have been granted.

If everyone wants to pick something about PRISM that's shady, this is the thing to go after and demand accountability for. Sure, it's creepy to think that the government is watching to see who we all talk to, but there's nothing unconstitutional about it. The DOJ giving out warrants to basically every person the NSA is remotely interested in is the worrying thing about all this, and I hope you all realize that.
 
Re: Edward Snowden Asylum To Be Offered By Venezuela,President Nicolás Maduro Says[W:

Crossroads said:
Too hard to think about I know...too bad.
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Too ridiculous to think about, especially considering you didn't even bother to cite any specific examples.
 
Edward Snowden Asylum To Be Offered By Venezuela,President Nicolás Maduro Says[

Metadata is like USPS making note of whom you write to and how frequently; the data is on the outside and not protected as established by SCOTUS.

In fact, USPS already does a similar program where they take a picture of all mail and store it for future use- yep, just like the NSA's electronic version. In fact, the FBI used the USPS program to trace those ricin laced letters sent to some senators and POTUS a few months ago.

The NSA program is equivalent to the USPS program but electronically; your right to privacy ends when you hit "send" and your communication flows thru a third party (ISP) and enters the realm of the electronic spectrum.
 
Re: Edward Snowden Asylum To Be Offered By Venezuela,President Nicolás Maduro Says[W:

repeter said:
No, the difference is more fundamental than that. I believe that government can do good, and you don't (I hope I'm not putting words in your mouth that you wouldn't agree with).
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No, I think the government can do good and I think it does. I'm not an anarchist. I just think we have way, way, way too much government and that has helped it become corrupt. I think it now does more harm than good.
 
Re: Edward Snowden Asylum To Be Offered By Venezuela,President Nicolás Maduro Says[

Update on Snowden: ;)

Russia: no asylum application from Snowden.....

Russian immigration officials said Saturday they have not received an application from Edward Snowden, the U.S. National Security Agency leaker who wants to get asylum in Russia.

Snowden came to Moscow's Sheremetyevo international airport on June 23 from Hong Kong, apparently intending to board a flight to Cuba. But he did not get on that flight and is believed to have spent the last three weeks marooned in the airport's transit zone.

On Friday, he met with human rights activists there and said he would seek Russian asylum, at least as a temporary measure before going to Venezuela, Bolivia or Nicaragua, all of which have offered him asylum.

But the Interfax news agency quoted Russian migration service head Konstantin Romodanovsky as saying no asylum request had been received as of Saturday. The state news agency RIA Novosti cited migration service spokeswoman, Zalina Kornilova, as also saying no request had been received.

Snowden had made a previous bid for Russian asylum, but President Vladimir Putin said he would have to agree to stop further leaks of information about American intelligence service activities before it would be considered. Snowden withdrew the bid, but participants in Friday's meeting said he was now ready to agree to stop leaks.

Granting asylum to Snowden would add significant new stress to already-troubled Washington-Moscow relations.

Obama and Putin discussed Snowden, among other issues, during a telephone call on Friday, the White House said in a terse statement that provided no specifics of their conversation about the NSA leaker. White House spokesman Jay Carney said the call was planned several days ago, suggesting that it was unrelated to Snowden's meeting with the activists.

Russia so far has sidestepped the issue by claiming that it cannot take action on Snowden because his presence in the transit zone puts him technically outside Russian territory. But by agreeing to the condition that he stop leaks, Snowden could force Russia's hand.....snip~

Russia: no asylum application from Snowden
Associated Press – 5 hrs ago <<<<< More here way more.
 
Re: Edward Snowden Asylum To Be Offered By Venezuela,President Nicolás Maduro Says[W:

Geoist said:
To claim that he has defected to Venezuela is about as accurate as saying he has defected to Mars.
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Why, did he also ask for asylum from the oppressive dictatorship that controls Mars?
 
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