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Edward Snowden Asylum To Be Offered By Venezuela,President Nicolás Maduro Says[W:271]

Re: Edward Snowden Asylum To Be Offered By Venezuela,President Nicolás Maduro Says[W:

By the way, the people saying that Snowden should have gone through proper channels to report this info, there were not any proper channels to go through that would have worked.

For example, when NSA whistleblower Thomas Drake tried to blow the whistle on fraud and corruption within the NSA – based upon the NSA spying on all Americans instead of targeting only suspected criminals – he was prosecuted under the Espionage Act.

Drake notes:

I differed as a whistleblower to Snowden only in this respect: in accordance with the Intelligence Community Whistleblower Protection Act, I took my concerns up within the chain of command, to the very highest levels at the NSA, and then to Congress and the Department of Defense. I understand why Snowden has taken his course of action, because he’s been following this for years: he’s seen what’s happened to other whistleblowers like me.

By following protocol, you get flagged – just for raising issues. You’re identified as someone they don’t like, someone not to be trusted. I was exposed early on because I was a material witness for two 9/11 congressional investigations. In closed testimony, I told them everything I knew – about Stellar Wind, billions of dollars in fraud, waste and abuse, and the critical intelligence, which the NSA had but did not disclose to other agencies, preventing vital action against known threats. If that intelligence had been shared, it may very well have prevented 9/11.

But as I found out later, none of the material evidence I disclosed went into the official record. It became a state secret even to give information of this kind to the 9/11 investigation.

When NSA whistleblower Russel Tice (later a key source in the 2005 New York Times report that blew the lid off the Bush administration’s use of warrantless wiretapping) questioned spying on innocent Americans, NSA tried to have him labeled “crazy”, and fired him.

When the head of the NSA’s global digital communications program – William Binney – disclosed the fact that the U.S. was spying on everyone in the U.S. and storing the data forever, the Feds tried to scare him into shutting up:

[Numerous] FBI officers held a gun to Binney’s head as he stepped naked from the shower. He watched with his wife and youngest son as the FBI ransacked their home. Later Binney was separated from the rest of his family, and FBI officials pressured him to implicate one of the other complainants in criminal activity. During the raid, Binney attempted to report to FBI officials the crimes he had witnessed at NSA, in particular the NSA’s violation of the constitutional rights of all Americans. However, the FBI wasn’t interested in these disclosures. Instead, FBI officials seized Binney’s private computer, which to this day has not been returned despite the fact that he has not been charged with a crime.

NSA whistleblower J. Kirk Wiebe didn’t get anywhere through proper channels either.
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More can be seen here: Why Didn’t Snowden Go through “Proper Channels” to Blow the Whistle? | Washington's Blog
 
Re: Edward Snowden Asylum To Be Offered By Venezuela,President Nicolás Maduro Says[W:

are you in fact James Spader???
 
Re: Edward Snowden Asylum To Be Offered By Venezuela,President Nicolás Maduro Says[W:

Slyfox696 said:
And you simply could have gone back to look for it, or you could have looked for the time I re-posted it (in a post you quoted, no less) and you didn't. No, instead you repeatedly asked a question you later claimed you wouldn't have read even if you had gone back over the thread because:


Deny it if you want, but I am not wrong. Now quit bothering me please.
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WRONG AGAIN, I see your reading comprehension sucks 'as well'.

My statement was about future posts of yours, not previous ones.

Duh.

As for leaving you alone, forget it.

If I see a post of yours that is wrong or stupid OR you keep calling people liars (when you cannot prove it) and I feel like it - I am commenting on it.

You don't like it - tough...use the Ignore List.




Have a nice day.
 
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Re: Edward Snowden Asylum To Be Offered By Venezuela,President Nicolás Maduro Says[W:

I asked him if he was James Spader the actor because he is using his picture . Is that an attack??
 
Re: Edward Snowden Asylum To Be Offered By Venezuela,President Nicolás Maduro Says[W:

tommytunes said:
are you in fact James Spader???
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No, I am Alan Shore.

DA60 said:
WRONG AGAIN, I see your reading comprehension sucks 'as well'.

My statement was about future posts of yours, not previous ones.

Duh.
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No, it wasn't.

DA60 said:
Sorry, don't remember seeing that.
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Slyfox696 said:
While I appreciate your apology, if you had just taken a few moments to review the thread, like I constantly told you to, you'd have seen it.
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DA60 said:
I doubt it.

Why waste time reading posts from people you don't respect much?
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My reading comprehension is just fine.

As for leaving you alone, forget it.
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Ahh, good to see you admit you plan to keep needling me. Between this and the above, I think I've proven myself right.


As for your suggestion for the Ignore List, that may be the first decent thing you've said in the past two days.
 
Re: Edward Snowden Asylum To Be Offered By Venezuela,President Nicolás Maduro Says[W:

Slyfox696 said:
No, I am Alan Shore.

No, it wasn't.







My reading comprehension is just fine.

Ahh, good to see you admit you plan to keep needling me. Between this and the above, I think I've proven myself right.


As for your suggestion for the Ignore List, that may be the first decent thing you've said in the past two days.
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You totally misunderstood my post.

Now enough with this nonsense - you want to try and personally attack me...do it in PM or in the Dungeon.

I'll meet you in either anytime I am on the board.


Now, back to you calling RA a liar.

To prove a lie, you - by definition - MUST prove intent.

Where is your unbiased, factual proof that he intended to lie?


Have a nice day.
 
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Re: Edward Snowden Asylum To Be Offered By Venezuela,President Nicolás Maduro Says[W:

Slyfox696 said:
Why did they do so? The context is important. Because after just reading a little bit on Wikipedia about Einstein, it doesn't appear as if he fled at all, so much as renounced his German citizen in protest/anger after deciding not to return to Germany after traveling to the US. Snowden knowingly broke the law for reasons he claimed were patriotic, but then left the country so as to not face the American justice system.

Again, I don't know much about either of those situations, I'm just going by what I read on Wikipedia, which is not always the most credible or thorough of sources. Could you explain further?

And you simply could have gone back to look for it, or you could have looked for the time I re-posted it (in a post you quoted, no less) and you didn't. No, instead you repeatedly asked a question you later claimed you wouldn't have read even if you had gone back over the thread because:


Deny it if you want, but I am not wrong. Now quit bothering me please.
Except those are NOT the inevitable conclusions drawn from my position, which, by default, means you are misrepresenting my position.

He committed the acts. It would be up to a jury of his peers to decide if he was guilty. That's the process.

No, it won't. First of all, I never said for Snowden to turn himself in, I said to stay in America and face the justice system, however it plays out. There is a difference, even if Snowden would be charged with crimes, which I agree he would. Second of all, it would be up to him and his attorney(s) to convince the jury that what he did was right, and thus, should not be penalized for his actions which benefited all Americans.

And, once more, you are deliberately misrepresenting my position. And, this time, you have no excuse.

I do. I own MY position, not the position you erroneously keep ascribing to me.

My position doesn't upset me at all. Your intentionally dishonest representation of it, even after I've clarified multiple times, does.

No, I'm not.

Manning was in the army at the time of his arrest and is being tried in a military court. You can bring Manning up 234532758023475896732405280973 more times and it won't change the fact he and Snowden are in different situations.
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1) Einstein left because he was a Jew in a country where it was a crime to be a Jew. According to you, he's a coward if he didn't stay and fight it in the German legal system. Apparently, he ran like a little bitch to the US.

2) You've spent most of your time rambling about "that's not my position", and yet have refused to provide any real arguments to why you believe what you do. Snowden, like Einstein, is guilty. Turning themselves into a government that wants to harm them for that guilt solves nothing.

3) Are you really claiming that the government can't make Snowden's trial closed to the public? You're so positive it'll be an open-to-the-media trial, I want to know how. Why would the government allow a top secret program to be discussed in open court? Extremely naive and ill-informed position.

DA60 said:
You totally misunderstood my post.

Now enough with this nonsense - you want to try and personally attack me...do it in PM or in the Dungeon.

I'll meet you in either anytime I am on the board.


Now, back to you calling RA a liar.

To prove a lie, you - by definition - MUST prove intent.

Where is your unbiased, factual proof that he intended to lie?


Have a nice day.
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I've just about given up on him. He doesn't put forth any arguments, evidence, or anecdotes of any kind. He makes vague position statements, then continues to cry for pages if you make any logical inferences from it.

I REALLY like the Einstein/Snowden comparison however that Geoist made earlier. According to the statists in this thread, Einstein must have been a coward for fleeing to the US to avoid persecution for his obvious crime of being a Jew. He should've stood proud and owned his Jew-ness. All of the German reporters would've covered his trial, and at the end they would all stand in applause, while the judge rules him not guilty, and the German system would've changed from that day forth.

Or... You know, he would've been rounded up onto a cattle truck and never have been heard from again.

Geoist said:
And I cannot see how any oath to a govt that abhors its own Constitution could be considered 'sacred.'



How are we to end such programs if they are all top secret and everyone decided that their oath to the almighty govt was too 'sacred' to break? Sometimes it takes a person to break the rules to expose it for what it is.



We briefly discussed such a circumstance: Nazi Germany.

I remember watching The Boy In The Striped Pajamas with some of my students and when the mother found out about what the gassing of the Jews and asked her husband how he could go along with such a horrible program he stated, "I took an oath!"

Oaths are just a tool for the State to coerce normally moral people into doing immoral and sometimes downright horrible things.
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This is the most insightful statement in this entire thread. The road to hell is paved with people "just following orders". It takes moral courage to stand up for the right thing.

Well said, sir.
 
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Re: Edward Snowden Asylum To Be Offered By Venezuela,President Nicolás Maduro Says[W:

DA60 said:
You totally misunderstood my post.
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No I didn't. It's quite clear what you said, no matter how inconvenient it now appears to you.

RabidAlpaca said:
1) Einstein left because he was a Jew in a country where it was a crime to be a Jew. According to you, he's a coward if he didn't stay and fight it in the German legal system. Apparently, he ran like a little bitch to the US.

2) You've spent most of your time rambling about "that's not my position", and yet have refused to provide any real arguments to why you believe what you do. Snowden, like Einstein, is guilty. Turning themselves into a government that wants to harm them for that guilt solves nothing.

3) Are you really claiming that the government can't make Snowden's trial closed to the public? You're so positive it'll be an open-to-the-media trial, I want to know how. Why would the government allow a top secret program to be discussed in open court? Extremely naive and ill-informed position.

I've just about given up on him.
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Actually, I have now decided to give up on you. You have made knowingly false statements and are continuing to do so despite me correcting you multiple times. You're clearly NOT interested in discussing this objectively. What you want is to rail against the evil boogeyman government and anything which does not conform to this narrative you're pushing means submitting to caged torture. I do not doubt the sincerity of your passion in arguing your position (unlike others I've questioned in this thread), but your insistence on associating me with positions I've not taken has grown tiresome, even for me.

If you ever wish to debate what I have ACTUALLY said, not what you want to believe I said, let me know and I'll be happy to have that discussion.
DA60 said:
Now you are telling me you know better what I mean then I do when I type something?
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No, I'm tell you your words were extremely clear, and no matter how much you try to backtrack from them now, their meaning will always remain. When I told you that you would have the answer to your question if you just went back and read my previous posts, you told me that you wouldn't, because "Why waste time reading posts from people you don't respect much?".

You said it and now you're running from it because it's inconvenient.

Lol....that's our Sly.
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Damn straight...I'll always point out the dishonesty of posts from others.

Anyway, back to you calling RA a liar.

To prove a lie, you - by definition - MUST prove intent.
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I already have proven he lied, even after you asked this the first time. So, like before, go read. But you won't do that, because you really aren't interested. All you want to do is continue to follow me around and harass me. If you are genuinely interested in your answer, go read my last few posts to him. Then you will have your answer. But if you come back with another post saying the exact same thing, then it's clear you're only interested in harassing me.
 
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Re: Edward Snowden Asylum To Be Offered By Venezuela,President Nicolás Maduro Says[W:

Slyfox696 said:
No I didn't. It's quite clear what you said, no matter how inconvenient it now appears to you.

Actually, I have now decided to give up on you. You have made knowingly false statements and are continuing to do so despite me correcting you multiple times. You're clearly NOT interested in discussing this objectively. What you want is to rail against the evil boogeyman government and anything which does not conform to this narrative you're pushing means submitting to caged torture. I do not doubt the sincerity of your passion in arguing your position (unlike others I've questioned in this thread), but your insistence on associating me with positions I've not taken has grown tiresome, even for me.

If you ever wish to debate what I have ACTUALLY said, not what you want to believe I said, let me know and I'll be happy to have that discussion.
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Now you are telling me you know better what I mean then I do when I type something?

Lol....that's our Sly.


Anyway, back to you calling RA a liar.

To prove a lie, you - by definition - MUST prove intent.

Where is your unbiased, factual proof that he intended to lie?


Have a nice day.
 
Re: Edward Snowden Asylum To Be Offered By Venezuela,President Nicolás Maduro Says[W:

RabidAlpaca said:
1) Einstein left because he was a Jew in a country where it was a crime to be a Jew. According to you, he's a coward if he didn't stay and fight it in the German legal system. Apparently, he ran like a little bitch to the US.

2) You've spent most of your time rambling about "that's not my position", and yet have refused to provide any real arguments to why you believe what you do. Snowden, like Einstein, is guilty. Turning themselves into a government that wants to harm them for that guilt solves nothing.

3) Are you really claiming that the government can't make Snowden's trial closed to the public? You're so positive it'll be an open-to-the-media trial, I want to know how. Why would the government allow a top secret program to be discussed in open court? Extremely naive and ill-informed position.



I've just about given up on him. He doesn't put forth any arguments, evidence, or anecdotes of any kind. He makes vague position statements, then continues to cry for pages if you make any logical inferences from it.

I REALLY like the Einstein/Snowden comparison however that Geoist made earlier. According to the statists in this thread, Einstein must have been a coward for fleeing to the US to avoid persecution for his obvious crime of being a Jew. He should've stood proud and owned his Jew-ness. All of the German reporters would've covered his trial, and at the end they would all stand in applause, while the judge rules him not guilty, and the German system would've changed from that day forth.

Or... You know, he would've been rounded up onto a cattle truck and never have been heard from again.



This is the most insightful statement in this entire thread. The road to hell is paved with people "just following orders". It takes moral courage to stand up for the right thing.

Well said, sir.
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Great points.

Dozens of prisoners - many of them completely innocent - are in legal limbo in Gitmo for over a decade, the POTUS will murder Americans without trial whenever he feels like it, rendition, torture, un-Constitutional spying on innocent Americans by the government.

And Snowden should expect a fair trial?

Do these people that blame him for leaving the country before he started his brave informing ever leave their parents basements/their rest homes?

This admin has proven that they will circumvent the Constitution and moral decency whenever it suits them.

And there can be few non-terrorists they want to kill more then Edward Snowden.

If they could have him killed tomorrow without the world knowing they did it - I think they would in a minute.

The U.S. government is feeding on U.S. terrorist paranoia to slowly become a quasi-police state.
 
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Re: Edward Snowden Asylum To Be Offered By Venezuela,President Nicolás Maduro Says[W:

Guy Incognito said:
The sacred obligation rests with the grantor of the oath.
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No oath is worthy of keeping if it is an oath to betray fellow Americans.

There are proper channels for congressional oversight.
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Whistleblower Protection Act does not extend to people in intelligence agencies or sub-contractors.




First, oaths are voluntary, not coercive. Second, I think the word for what you are doing is "godwinning." Snowden is no Oscar Schindler. It is frankly disrespectful to holocaust victims to compare their plight to the "plight" of Verizon having its phone logs searched by a computer program.
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Do not twist my words please. I was not comparing the plight of Holocaust victims to this issue. You said you cannot think of extreme circumstances where oathbreaking is acceptable but I gave you one such extreme example. But I don't believe it has to be anything as extreme as genocide to morally break an oath. I believe it can be broken when the institution you pledged to has clearly violated its own laws. People make such oaths to uphold the law, not break it.

If a government has become as corrupt and evil as Nazi Germany then one should be willing to betray that government and be willing to own up to the fact that they have defected. You certainly couldn't claim to still be a loyal citizen of Nazi Germany, nor would you want to. Yet that is what Snowden is doing. He has neither the courage to face US justice nor the courage to repudiate the US.
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He has clearly repudiated the US government's policies.

So the comparison to the Nazis is wrong. Genocide renders a government illegitimate but espionage does not.
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Once again, not comparing the two governments. Was pointing out an example where oathbreaking is legitimate. I never said that this govt we have is illegitimate. But I do believe that some of its policies are.
 
Re: Edward Snowden Asylum To Be Offered By Venezuela,President Nicolás Maduro Says[W:

alexa said:
Iceland seems to have fallen through. They were going to have a vote on making him a citizen before they went off for the Summer recess but have surprising voted not to do this.

Snowden has applied secretly to six other countries as he says he wants to stop the US from intimidating them.

And how can he travel if even Presidential planes are illegally searched and European countries will not give airspace to a plane that could be hiding him. Spain has said she was told Snowden was definitely on that plane.

When refueling of the plane of a head of State is refused which could have resulted in an air crash and loss of life, how the hell in this world, bought and sold by the US, is he going to get safe passage anywhere?

Maybe the UN will need to say that by the Geneva Convention he needs political asylum and escort him if need be? :shock:
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Iceland depends heavily on the US, big trade partner.
 
Re: Edward Snowden Asylum To Be Offered By Venezuela,President Nicolás Maduro Says[W:

Slyfox696 said:
Why did they do so? The context is important. Because after just reading a little bit on Wikipedia about Einstein, it doesn't appear as if he fled at all, so much as renounced his German citizen in protest/anger after deciding not to return to Germany after traveling to the US. Snowden knowingly broke the law for reasons he claimed were patriotic, but then left the country so as to not face the American justice system.

Again, I don't know much about either of those situations, I'm just going by what I read on Wikipedia, which is not always the most credible or thorough of sources. Could you explain further?
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Inevitably, Einstein’s fame and the great success of his theories created a backlash. The rising Nazi movement found a convenient target in relativity, branding it “Jewish physics” and sponsoring conferences and book burnings to denounce Einstein and his theories. The Nazis enlisted other physicists, including Nobel laureates Philipp Lenard and Johannes Stark, to denounce Einstein. One Hundred Authors Against Einstein was published in 1931. When asked to comment on this denunciation of relativity by so many scientists, Einstein replied that to defeat relativity one did not need the word of 100 scientists, just one fact.

In December 1932 Einstein decided to leave Germany forever (he would never go back). It became obvious to Einstein that his life was in danger. A Nazi organization published a magazine with Einstein’s picture and the caption “Not Yet Hanged” on the cover. There was even a price on his head. So great was the threat that Einstein split with his pacifist friends and said that it was justified to defend yourself with arms against Nazi aggression. To Einstein, pacifism was not an absolute concept but one that had to be re-examined depending on the magnitude of the threat.
Albert Einstein (German-American physicist) : Coming to America -- Encyclopedia Britannica

So instead of staying and fighting he left Germany and his fellow German Jews to escape persecution by the government. Is he a coward?
 
Re: Edward Snowden Asylum To Be Offered By Venezuela,President Nicolás Maduro Says[W:

Geoist said:
Inevitably, Einstein’s fame and the great success of his theories created a backlash. The rising Nazi movement found a convenient target in relativity, branding it “Jewish physics” and sponsoring conferences and book burnings to denounce Einstein and his theories. The Nazis enlisted other physicists, including Nobel laureates Philipp Lenard and Johannes Stark, to denounce Einstein. One Hundred Authors Against Einstein was published in 1931. When asked to comment on this denunciation of relativity by so many scientists, Einstein replied that to defeat relativity one did not need the word of 100 scientists, just one fact.

In December 1932 Einstein decided to leave Germany forever (he would never go back). It became obvious to Einstein that his life was in danger. A Nazi organization published a magazine with Einstein’s picture and the caption “Not Yet Hanged” on the cover. There was even a price on his head. So great was the threat that Einstein split with his pacifist friends and said that it was justified to defend yourself with arms against Nazi aggression. To Einstein, pacifism was not an absolute concept but one that had to be re-examined depending on the magnitude of the threat.
Albert Einstein (German-American physicist) : Coming to America -- Encyclopedia Britannica

So instead of staying and fighting he left Germany and his fellow German Jews to escape persecution by the government. Is he a coward?
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Did he knowingly choose to break laws and then run away? Then yes. If the answer is no, then no. If you believe strongly enough in *belief* that you are willing to knowingly break the law, usually for a "noble" cause, then you should be willing to stand up to the consequences of that action.
 
Re: Edward Snowden Asylum To Be Offered By Venezuela,President Nicolás Maduro Says[W:

Slyfox696 said:
Did he knowingly choose to break laws and then run away? Then yes. If the answer is no, then no. If you believe strongly enough in *belief* that you are willing to knowingly break the law, usually for a "noble" cause, then you should be willing to stand up to the consequences of that action.
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So your verdict: Einstein should have stayed in Germany to face the hangman's noose (or the gas chamber). Got it.
 
Re: Edward Snowden Asylum To Be Offered By Venezuela,President Nicolás Maduro Says[W:

Geoist said:
So your verdict: Einstein should have stayed in Germany to face the hangman's noose (or the gas chamber). Got it.
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So if a man rapes, beats and murders a child, and then flees to another country to escape prosecution in this one, he's not a coward for running away? I assume we can both safely agree he's a despicable human being and/or a coward for the act against the child itself.

Is that man not a coward for his action of running away either? How about if Bernie Madoff had fled to a country with no extradition to the US, would Bernie Madoff not be a coward either? You've had my answer (which I'm not sure I actually gave, but you seem to know more about Einstein's situation that I), so now I'm interested in yours.
 
Re: Edward Snowden Asylum To Be Offered By Venezuela,President Nicolás Maduro Says[W:

Slyfox696 said:
So if a man rapes, beats and murders a child, and then flees to another country to escape prosecution in this one, he's not a coward for running away? I assume we can both safely agree he's a despicable human being and/or a coward for the act against the child itself.

Is that man not a coward for his action of running away either? How about if Bernie Madoff had fled to a country with no extradition to the US, would Bernie Madoff not be a coward either? You've had my answer (which I'm not sure I actually gave, but you seem to know more about Einstein's situation that I), so now I'm interested in yours.
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The act of running away to escape persecution isn't in of itself cowardice. There is a difference between running away to avoid persecution after doing something right and running away after doing something wrong. If one runs away after they know they did something to wrong another then yes that is cowardice.
 
Re: Edward Snowden Asylum To Be Offered By Venezuela,President Nicolás Maduro Says[W:

Geoist said:
No oath is worthy of keeping if it is an oath to betray fellow Americans.



Whistleblower Protection Act does not extend to people in intelligence agencies or sub-contractors.






Do not twist my words please. I was not comparing the plight of Holocaust victims to this issue. You said you cannot think of extreme circumstances where oathbreaking is acceptable but I gave you one such extreme example. But I don't believe it has to be anything as extreme as genocide to morally break an oath. I believe it can be broken when the institution you pledged to has clearly violated its own laws. People make such oaths to uphold the law, not break it.



He has clearly repudiated the US government's policies.



Once again, not comparing the two governments. Was pointing out an example where oathbreaking is legitimate. I never said that this govt we have is illegitimate. But I do believe that some of its policies are.
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I am not twisting your words at all. If certain extreme circumstances like genocide can justify oath-breaking that is no excuse whatsoever for Snowden, who betrayed his oath over an attenuated bit of constitutional minutiae. Even granting that these searches were unconstitutional (I do not) the mere fact that a law is unconstitutional does not carry the same moral weight as a genocide. So no, I was not twisting your words, I was pointing out a gaping hole in your argument.

What is going on here? The government is seizing some of Verizon's property for a search. If Verizon doesn't like it then they have standing I go to court and fight it, yet they never did. No individual rights are violates any more than when Verizon eels that same data to advertisers. This is absolutely nothing, even if there were no warrants. And, oh yeah, there WERE warrants; so this js REALLY nothing. But even if there were no warrants this is still nothing to get worked up obver. Comparing it to the holocaust is a disservice to real moral tragedies.
 
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Re: Edward Snowden Asylum To Be Offered By Venezuela,President Nicolás Maduro Says[W:

Geoist said:
The act of running away to escape persecution isn't in of itself cowardice. There is a difference between running away to avoid persecution after doing something right and running away after doing something wrong. If one runs away after they know they did something to wrong another then yes that is cowardice.
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Defecting to Venezuela after leaking clAssified national security secrets while claiming to care about the interests of the USA can be characterized as nothing other than an act of cowardice.
 
Re: Edward Snowden Asylum To Be Offered By Venezuela,President Nicolás Maduro Says[W:

Guy Incognito said:
Defecting to Venezuela after leaking clAssified national security secrets while claiming to care about the interests of the USA can be characterized as nothing other than an act of cowardice.
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So everyone in witness protection are cowards as well right?
 
Re: Edward Snowden Asylum To Be Offered By Venezuela,President Nicolás Maduro Says[W:

RedAkston said:
So everyone in witness protection are cowards as well right?
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No, that is a facile analogy.
 
Edward Snowden Asylum To Be Offered By Venezuela,President Nicolás Maduro Says[

I really hopes that he goes to Venezuela; only makes it easier to pay him a "visit"...maybe he gets lost on his way to the Venezuelan Free Press Institute. There are tons of monuments to freedom that he could visit. Chavez's tomb is a great example- a must see for sure!

Roads have been known to be slippery during the rainy season; I sure hope he doesn't fall and slip, it would be a shame to find that he fell and got a boo-boo in the middle of the night :(
 
Re: Edward Snowden Asylum To Be Offered By Venezuela,President Nicolás Maduro Says[W:

Geoist said:
The act of running away to escape persecution isn't in of itself cowardice. There is a difference between running away to avoid persecution after doing something right and running away after doing something wrong. If one runs away after they know they did something to wrong another then yes that is cowardice.
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"Doing something right"...Snowden didn't do something indisputably "right", he did something indisputably illegal. Some people feel he should be celebrated as a hero and others think he should be considered a traitor who put American lives in danger. So who gets to make that determination of what's right and what's not? Are your morals flexible enough to bend in all directions, depending upon whether or not you agree with the act?

I'm sorry, I'm having a hard time with your argument, for multiple reasons. First of all, Edward Snowden very clearly knew he did something which was, at least on some levels, wrong. You can argue the "right" far outshone the "wrong", and I wouldn't necessarily disagree with you on that, but there was still a level of wrongness in his actions. Second of all, if we're just going to arbitrarily assign cowardice based upon whether we agree with the action, then if we take the example of a person who murders a child because he/she claims the child was possessed, then that person does not feel they did wrong and thus, using your theory, could not be considered a coward when they fled. Finally, the problem I have with your argument is if each person gets to decide for themselves whether the fleeing action was cowardly, then why are you essentially arguing with me that Snowden is a coward?

My philosophy is not nearly so malleable. At the end of the day, if a person truly believes they are doing the right thing, then they shouldn't run from the thing they did. It's hard for me to believe you're a man standing on principles when you break the law, if you are running from facing the consequences of said principle. I MIGHT give some credence to the argument of running so one can continue the fight, but Snowden's fleeing does not continue his fight, if anything, it diminishes it (as I explained earlier in the thread).
 
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Re: Edward Snowden Asylum To Be Offered By Venezuela,President Nicolás Maduro Says[W:

Slyfox696 said:
I MIGHT give some credence to the argument of running so one can continue the fight, but Snowden's fleeing does not continue his fight, if anything, it diminishes it (as I explained earlier in the thread).
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That's a great point. He's defecting to Venezuela to protest US infringements of liberty. As if Venezuela is some bastion of liberty?

Apparently the US is so unfree he has to leak classified information in protest and then flee, but somehow he's just fine with the level of freedom Venezuela. That's the definition of a hypocrite.

If I were one of these guys defending Snowden, I'd just be embarrassed at this point.
 
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