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Update: U.S. training Syrian rebels; White House 'stepped up assistance'

polgara said:
Great post! The last sentence sums up what makes America what it is... we have the freedom to have it that way! :thumbs:

Good afternoon, Jack. :2wave:
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Sometimes a post just writes itself. That's what happened. Good afternoon, Polgara.:2wave:
 
Dittohead not! said:
So, the CIA is giving them weapons, and teaching them to use those weapons, but they're not effective weapons?
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Nobody says they gave them anti-air weapons. Are you saying the CIA can't train them on weapons they already have? Next you will tell me they are giving them AKs and RPGs (about as easy to find as a Big Mac in the states).

But. Let's address your point. The AA gun in question has a max effective range of 2 miles. That is a long way off. Would be effective against slow moving helicopters and planes.

The United States could send an unmanned predator drone which can carry 2 hellfire missiles. Those have max effective range of...5 miles. It can also carry griffin air to surface missiles which have a maximum effective range of about 12.5 miles. I've never been good at math, but I do know that 5>2 and 12.5>2.

Do you understand the American arsenal of aircraft? A few trailer Pulled AA guns won't be something to worry about. RPGs and HMGs (heavy machine guns...easily available to anyone who knows where to find a black market) fired at helicopters are a much bigger deal. Heck more of our aircraft have been lost due to failures in the aircraft or pilot error. That is for helicopters. In Iraq we lost more fixed wing aircraft to friendly fire than enemy fire.

We have designed our aircraft to deal with AA fire. Stinger missiles are a scary thing. But most ground based weapons are not effective enough to deal with U.S. aircraft (fixed wing). Helicopters will obviously be in danger, but no more danger than they would be from RPGs and machine guns.
 
stonewall50 said:
Nobody says they gave them anti-air weapons. Are you saying the CIA can't train them on weapons they already have? Next you will tell me they are giving them AKs and RPGs (about as easy to find as a Big Mac in the states).

But. Let's address your point. The AA gun in question has a max effective range of 2 miles. That is a long way off. Would be effective against slow moving helicopters and planes.

The United States could send an unmanned predator drone which can carry 2 hellfire missiles. Those have max effective range of...5 miles. It can also carry griffin air to surface missiles which have a maximum effective range of about 12.5 miles. I've never been good at math, but I do know that 5>2 and 12.5>2.

Do you understand the American arsenal of aircraft? A few trailer Pulled AA guns won't be something to worry about. RPGs and HMGs (heavy machine guns...easily available to anyone who knows where to find a black market) fired at helicopters are a much bigger deal. Heck more of our aircraft have been lost due to failures in the aircraft or pilot error. That is for helicopters. In Iraq we lost more fixed wing aircraft to friendly fire than enemy fire.

We have designed our aircraft to deal with AA fire. Stinger missiles are a scary thing. But most ground based weapons are not effective enough to deal with U.S. aircraft (fixed wing). Helicopters will obviously be in danger, but no more danger than they would be from RPGs and machine guns.
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Yup. It was destruction of the Red Army helos that enabled the mujahedeen victory in Afghanistan. The helo is the critical vehicle for a government fighting an insurgency.:shoot
 
stonewall50 said:
Nobody says they gave them anti-air weapons. Are you saying the CIA can't train them on weapons they already have? Next you will tell me they are giving them AKs and RPGs (about as easy to find as a Big Mac in the states).

But. Let's address your point. The AA gun in question has a max effective range of 2 miles. That is a long way off. Would be effective against slow moving helicopters and planes.

The United States could send an unmanned predator drone which can carry 2 hellfire missiles. Those have max effective range of...5 miles. It can also carry griffin air to surface missiles which have a maximum effective range of about 12.5 miles. I've never been good at math, but I do know that 5>2 and 12.5>2.

Do you understand the American arsenal of aircraft? A few trailer Pulled AA guns won't be something to worry about. RPGs and HMGs (heavy machine guns...easily available to anyone who knows where to find a black market) fired at helicopters are a much bigger deal. Heck more of our aircraft have been lost due to failures in the aircraft or pilot error. That is for helicopters. In Iraq we lost more fixed wing aircraft to friendly fire than enemy fire.

We have designed our aircraft to deal with AA fire. Stinger missiles are a scary thing. But most ground based weapons are not effective enough to deal with U.S. aircraft (fixed wing). Helicopters will obviously be in danger, but no more danger than they would be from RPGs and machine guns.
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To paraphrase all that, then, we don't have to worry about them turning our own weapons we've given them and trained them to use on us, because we have much more effective weapons that we didn't give them.
 
Dittohead not! said:
To paraphrase all that, then, we don't have to worry about them turning our own weapons we've given them and trained them to use on us, because we have much more effective weapons that we didn't give them.
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Not only that, we only taught them how to deploy/employ those weapons. We didn't send them to The War College and turn them into expert tacticians.
 
Dittohead not! said:
To paraphrase all that, then, we don't have to worry about them turning our own weapons we've given them and trained them to use on us, because we have much more effective weapons that we didn't give them.
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Bingo.
 
Jack Hays said:
Yup. It was destruction of the Red Army helos that enabled the mujahedeen victory in Afghanistan. The helo is the critical vehicle for a government fighting an insurgency.:shoot
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We learned alot about helos in Vietnam. We also did in Iraq and Afghanistan and Somalia and so on. If we ever deal with Syria they won't have anything the US military hasn't seen and trained for.
 
stonewall50 said:
We learned alot about helos in Vietnam. We also did in Iraq and Afghanistan and Somalia and so on. If we ever deal with Syria they won't have anything the US military hasn't seen and trained for.
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We won't need to do much in Syria except supply. There are Syrians willing to fight for themselves.:shoot
 
Dittohead not! said:
I suppose there is something to be said for finding a use for our obsolete weapons. Someone is bound to make money from such a thing.
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Course then there is what AQ can funnel in thru their sources as well. Which also they have reported the killing of Syrians Inside Iraq.

Moreover now the Shia have struck assassinating a Sunni Cleric. Outside of Syria. So the sectarian divide is being pushed and expanded upon.
 
MMC said:
Course then there is what AQ can funnel in thru their sources as well. Which also they have reported the killing of Syrians Inside Iraq.

Moreover now the Shia have struck assassinating a Sunni Cleric. Outside of Syria. So the sectarian divide is being pushed and expanded upon.
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Lucky for us there's no bad news.:cool:
 
MMC said:
Course then there is what AQ can funnel in thru their sources as well. Which also they have reported the killing of Syrians Inside Iraq.

Moreover now the Shia have struck assassinating a Sunni Cleric. Outside of Syria. So the sectarian divide is being pushed and expanded upon.
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all good news for the arms manufacturers.

not so much for the people of the Mid East.
 
Jack Hays said:
Lucky for us there's no bad news.:cool:
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Well.....there is, if our Sunni Allies Clerics and leaders keep getting assassinated. Then it's really bad news for us. As we will then be expected to come and save the day.
 
MMC said:
Well.....there is, if our Sunni Allies Clerics and leaders keep getting assassinated. Then it's really bad news for us. As we will then be expected to come and save the day.
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Nah. This is their show. We're just facilitators.:cool:
 
Jack Hays said:
Nah. This is their show. We're just facilitators.:cool:
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Oh yeah.....with a little help from our friends. Which let them handle it. Meaning France the Brits, Saudi and Qatar. Course then the Rebels and Assad, and his backers.

Time to kick the shoes off.....sit back a spell. They'll all come back now. Don't you worry. ;)
 
MMC said:
Oh yeah.....with a little help from our friends. Which let them handle it. Meaning France the Brits, Saudi and Qatar. Course then the Rebels and Assad, and his backers.

Time to kick the shoes off.....sit back a spell. They'll all come back now. Don't you worry. ;)
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They'll be fine. This is an insurgency with popular support.:cool:
 
Jack Hays said:
Sometimes a post just writes itself. That's what happened. Good afternoon, Polgara.:2wave:
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Nah! I've seen posts of yours before. If they all write themselves, you are indeed fortunate!, just being able to sit there and read them! Do they ever surprise you? :lamo:
 
Jack Hays said:
They'll be fine. This is an insurgency with popular support.:cool:
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Insurgency? Not even close......this is the Sunni looking to commit Genocide in a legal manner and by the use of others. For which they Unable to do so United. On their Own! ;)
 
MMC said:
Insurgency? Not even close......this is the Sunni looking to commit Genocide in a legal manner and by the use of others. For which they Unable to do so United. On their Own! ;)
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Sorry, but no. The Sunnis in Syria are an oppressed majority, like the Shia in Iraq were. They are fighting to free themselves from oppression.:cool:
 
Jack Hays said:
Sorry, but no. The Sunnis in Syria are an oppressed majority, like the Shia in Iraq were. They are fighting to free themselves from oppression.:cool:
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Unfortunately the Christians inside Syria disagree, and the Sunni Rebels do not even have the backing of all their own Sunni and Muslim Syrians. :cool:

Again.....the reason with the backing of the MB and the Salafis. Is that they are thought to be able to do Business with the West. There is no guarantee and there never was. ;)
 
MMC said:
Unfortunately the Christians inside Syria disagree, and the Sunni Rebels do not even have the backing of all their own Sunni and Muslim Syrians. :cool:

Again.....the reason with the backing of the MB and the Salafis. Is that they are thought to be able to do Business with the West. There is no guarantee and there never was. ;)
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I could not care less whether they can do business with the West. (Although I think they can.) In geopolitical terms, it doesn't matter what the Christians think. I'm confident the rebels have the backing of Sunni Syrians, otherwise the rebellion would not have grown.:cool:
 
Jack Hays said:
I could not care less whether they can do business with the West. (Although I think they can.) In geopolitical terms, it doesn't matter what the Christians think. I'm confident the rebels have the backing of Sunni Syrians, otherwise the rebellion would not have grown.:cool:
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Not to difficult for it to have grown while bringing in Sunni Fighters from other countries. Not counting AQ. Nor for Al Nusra to gain support like they have over most of the FSA. Which still doesn't change the facts about those Syrian Christians either.

I would think that when half of the country, of ones own people not siding with their so called opposition and doing what they can to not get caught in the middle. Speaks volumes.

Like Israel said.....expect a long drawn out civil war. Plus now the French today agreed with us and said that the UN putting up a No Fly Zone. Wont be happening.
 
MMC said:
Not to difficult for it to have grown while bringing in Sunni Fighters from other countries. Not counting AQ. Nor for Al Nusra to gain support like they have over most of the FSA. Which still doesn't change the facts about those Syrian Christians either.

I would think that when half of the country, of ones own people not siding with their so called opposition and doing what they can to not get caught in the middle. Speaks volumes.

Like Israel said.....expect a long drawn out civil war. Plus now the French today agreed with us and said that the UN putting up a No Fly Zone. Wont be happening.
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I'm content to await the outcome. Supporting the rebels is the right thing to do and the smart thing to do.:cool:
 
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