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Boy Scouts Banned By Alabama Pastor Greg Walker[W:220:563]

Re: Boy Scouts Banned By Alabama Pastor Greg Walker

Your first premise is false so your entire argument fails. I don't know why this is so difficult for people to understand. I suppose its more convienent to attack a strawman.

Gotta love it when so-called libertarians keep to the philosophy only when they find it convienent. Good god, you all are more judgmental than the Christians you constantly whine about.

The hell? Did I ever say he HAD to do anything? Did I ever say the state should swoop in and force him to do anything? No. I just called him a douche bag and a terrible christian.

If you can tell me why having that opinion makes me a terrible libertarian, by all means, do it. I think you just can't form a rebuttal, so you're switching to insults instead.
 
Re: Boy Scouts Banned By Alabama Pastor Greg Walker

I can see you must have tried the maiden flight on your own, did you, land on the noggin did you, didn't really do much damage, did you?

Unless you really do not have the capacity to understand the concept we are discussing, ... just wanted you "smart science" folks to tell us sky guy peeps just how this all came about, the fairly ordered universe, you know the atheists "stories" of just being ...they are truly wild and fascinating, but if it is so silly to believe in a god, just where are your solid answers to where gravity, all the rules of physics, come from originally? Come on ....

I can hear the gears whizzing now...."oh, wait a minute, omg, he is not asking IF there is gravity...he is asking WHERE IT CAME FROM ORIGINALLY, BEFORE BEFORE, matter of fact he is asking where did everything come from, originally?" Totally nothing, not even the thought or whisper or anything of even this nothingness existed [ and if that's not true, where did whatever IS there, where did that come from?] and this nothingness suddenly for some reason just sprang into just being somethingness, matter of fact everythingess, now just where did that all come from then? This decision from nowhere and then the power to actually do...where did it come from? I know, I know this is a bit more mature subject than maybe you are used to ...seeing as how you earlier tried to dumb the question down to something you maybe could actually answer, and then you there was that clumsy/snarky little attempted jibe, ha ha ha, crude but at least made me chuckle about just how much effort you folks expend on the extraneous hoping we will forget about the pertinent...but you see this ploy you are using to avoid ...it just is simply not about the question asked...and so you maybe might try again?

If not, I understand...

hmmmm...what to do what to do,huh? Like I said, maybe y'all wanna call Bill Nye, the science guy...maybe he might help you locate the answer...ha ha ha ha

That is still a mystery, tiger. Mysteries are one of the major reasons religion is such a common characteristic of human society. Science may be able to answer your questions one day. Perhaps not.
 
Re: Boy Scouts Banned By Alabama Pastor Greg Walker[W:220]

Uhhh...no.

First off, take off the caps lock because I can hear you fine. Second, the facts are that Christians are called to be repentant. If one claims to be a follower of Christ, then their life will show evidence of it. If one claims to be a follower of Christ and leads a life of willful rebellion to his teaching, then I'll let you do the logic, and before you try to separate Christ's teaching from that of his Apostles, Jesus himself gave his Apostles authority to speak and teach on his behalf, so no it has not been amended by a higher authority.

Whether or not the BSA accepts gays is irrelevant. However, if the BSA is using the facility of a group that believes homosexuality is wrong to teach that it is an acceptable behavior, that is another matter entirely, and your condemnation of the claimed bigotry of this pastor becomes as laughable as it is hypocritical.

FWIW, it strikes me as odd that you pick and choose the teachings of Christ to try to catch someone in a contradiction when you yourselves have precious little knowledge of scripture and what knowledge you do have, you twist and turn for your own sordid means.

And that has been amended (by higher authority?) because Jesus dinned with sinners against established religions decrees. And he was killed for it. HE WAS KILLED BECAUSE YOU CANT ACCEPT GAYS (among many other things). He died for (because) of your sins.
 
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Re: Boy Scouts Banned By Alabama Pastor Greg Walker

That is still a mystery, tiger. Mysteries are one of the major reasons religion is such a common characteristic of human society. Science may be able to answer your questions one day. Perhaps not.

And should there actually be a god creator, which maybe you do not believe, but if there is... what then will the science guys say? If a creator placed himself outside of the science... thus not allowing these fellows to prove or disprove that higher existence?

You see, your faith is science, but it is only your faith versus mine. There is, simply put, no superiority of science as science has proven here, to us all, that it is just a belief system not substantially different really from the rest in this regard. All of each belief system rests, for whatever fundamental understanding it has about what all this around us "is" and "where it came from", all rests on an unprovable first premise, so everything from there is not really much more than pure extrapolation, some judging reality, perhaps, hard to really know, better than others. Agreed.

Main thing to say is, you can no more prove yours right than you can prove ours wrong... sweet and simple.

would suggest taking your animal-preferencing to a zoo maybe...?
 
Re: Boy Scouts Banned By Alabama Pastor Greg Walker

And should there actually be a god creator, which maybe you do not believe, but if there is... what then will the science guys say? If a creator placed himself outside of the science... thus not allowing these fellows to prove or disprove that higher existence?

You see, your faith is science, but it is only your faith versus mine. There is, simply put, no superiority of science as science has proven here, to us all, that it is just a belief system not substantially different really from the rest in this regard. All of each belief system rests, for whatever fundamental understanding it has about what all this around us "is" and "where it came from", all rests on an unprovable first premise, so everything from there is not really much more than pure extrapolation, some judging reality, perhaps, hard to really know, better than others. Agreed.

Main thing to say is, you can no more prove yours right than you can prove ours wrong... sweet and simple.

would suggest taking your animal-preferencing to a zoo maybe...?

What makes you angry at me? Science deals with observable, measurable phenomena. Faith deals with beliefs. They aren't in any way connected. Since science can't observe the creation of our universe, it can only make assumptions from what can be observed. So far that isn't enough to figure it all out. It may never be. What does that have to do with faith?
 
Re: Boy Scouts Banned By Alabama Pastor Greg Walker

What makes you angry at me? Science deals with observable, measurable phenomena. Faith deals with beliefs. They aren't in any way connected. Since science can't observe the creation of our universe, it can only make assumptions from what can be observed. So far that isn't enough to figure it all out. It may never be. What does that have to do with faith?

First...
Cool your jets, nobody's angry here.

Second...
I thought it rather obvious from that last detailed post...."you can no more prove yours right than you can prove ours wrong..."

If one cannot prove his own belief and cannot disprove another's, while both may not be exactly equivalent [ one or the other may actually be the truth, but who knows which one...???] both are ...

...just separate belief systems, we both place our faith in our own belief system, your faith in your belief system, science, has no more validity than our faith in our belief system... not a particularly difficult or complex concept, at least I didn't think it should be...

If that does not quite do it for you, sorry...you will have to go elsewhere as that should be abundantly plain, for a rational thinker...
 
Re: Boy Scouts Banned By Alabama Pastor Greg Walker

First...
Cool your jets, nobody's angry here.

Second...
I thought it rather obvious from that last detailed post...."you can no more prove yours right than you can prove ours wrong..."

If one cannot prove his own belief and cannot disprove another's, while both may not be exactly equivalent [ one or the other may actually be the truth, but who knows which one...???] both are ...

...just separate belief systems, we both place our faith in our own belief system, your faith in your belief system, science, has no more validity than our faith in our belief system... not a particularly hard concept, at least I didn't think it should be...

If that does not quite do it for you, sorry...you will have to go elsewhere as that should be abundantly plain, for a rational thinker...

No need to insult me. Let's go back again. Science deals with observable and measurable phenomena. It isn't a belief system. It is an understanding of how nature works. Faith is based on nothing but belief. There is no observation, no measurement, no phenomena. Also note that it is impossible to disprove the existence of something. It is only possible to prove it. Science is a method for proving natural phenomena. Faith is not. Have faith. I have no problem with it. But don't confuse it with facts.
 
Re: Boy Scouts Banned By Alabama Pastor Greg Walker

No need to insult me. Let's go back again. Science deals with observable and measurable phenomena. It isn't a belief system. It is an understanding of how nature works. Faith is based on nothing but belief. There is no observation, no measurement, no phenomena. Also note that it is impossible to disprove the existence of something. It is only possible to prove it. Science is a method for proving natural phenomena. Faith is not. Have faith. I have no problem with it. But don't confuse it with facts.

Take the blue up there. When you go back so far that there just is no more there there, nothing left that can be observed and/or that is measurable, which you previously acknowledged may just be the case, to the point where, perhaps, fact may never be figured out, never “known”....when that far back, how is one to then determine from where we, from where did everything come?


And there may be those that do not try to“know”, some leave it there. But if one tries take it further, then one is left only with what you may or not decide to believe.

So, why not just tell me what is provable… I will then tell you that everything that came before, well that can but only be a belief. We both have different beliefs, obviously. So, wanna tell me what is provable?



RED
Is Faith solely reliant upon belief? No bible scholar, here, just know enough to plausibly prove my points. Many of these points might spread across the vast spectrum of historical world religions as well.

No, you say, "no observation, no measurement, no phenomena". Nothing?

One, many religions say they obtained higher powered assistance. Two the most successful of these, provably, is the monotheist religion following the Jehovah/Jesus belief. Many teachings given in its book form a guide, proven, observably, measurably, perhaps even to the point of achieving the idea of “wildly”, successful…plus more than moderately long-lived, enduring . Provably successful "serving" 2 billion adherents world wide, continuous for what, 2000 years…? Not too shabby one presupposes. Three Has a history, the event phenoena, does it not? Also well documented/much provable. So, isn’t quite a bit of all that measurable? Good teachings from somewhere, credit given to god, voluntarily accepted, more than “mildly” successful…prosperous, powerful even, cross checking many of the states with which there is association.

So how is science so much much more…regale me with the facts again, please?




What do you call it when you also cannot prove the origin of something? If origin proving is impossible, would you not, if you wanted to have an answer for where things came from, would you not have to rely upon what you “believe” , as there are just no facts to confirm? When you only have that “believe” part of the equation, you have only your belief system… and we, over here, have ours as well. I cannot care if you are insulted as I cannot not ask this [ am willing to break those dub-neg grammar rules as well ]…

Just how is it that do you not get this? I mean, assuming you do not get it. Had not previously thought I would have had to make that assumption. But through ongoing scientific observation and measurement, I was able to determine that in all probability, tho unfortunate, that you just will not.

Perhaps just cannot, I can assure you I have no idea why. But see, we actually do believe in science as well.
 
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Re: Boy Scouts Banned By Alabama Pastor Greg Walker

There is a thoughtful, worth-the-read article in the Washington Post today that explains why, from the perspective of Scout leaders, gay activists, religious conservatives and historians of Scouting, after "more than three decades of scorched-earth opposition," the Boy Scouts did its "flip."


- The Washington Post
 
Re: Boy Scouts Banned By Alabama Pastor Greg Walker

Private business, using their own private property, their own funds, cannot discriminate in this manner.

For profit enities are under contract law and are there by creatures of the State and it is not unreasonable to have such restrictions that no discrimination by category can exist. Churches are outside such strictures (they do not invole contract law) and should not be subject to them. I believe that non-profit enities should not be regulated as such nor taxed since they are not for profit and they serve a social purpose.


Why are churches legally different?

Because the 1st Admendment of the Constitution says Congress cannot inhibit the free exersise of religion and forcing the boy scouts on a congregation does so.


I know why they are, by the way, I just don't think it should be legal.

Nice to know you are agianst the free exercise of religion.

Churches enjoy favorable tax status under 401c laws.

Thats because they are non-profit enities and they recieve donations from their members which is used for ongoing expenses and mission work. Any business or other property that brings revenue, however should be taxed.

They should have to adhere to The Civil Rights Act just like everyone else.

The Civil Rights Act was brought about to counter socialized discrimination that previously was institutionlized through Jim Crow Laws. Later more groups were brought under the Civil Rights Act due to political pressure from splinter groups in minorities like women (though they make up slighly more than 50% of the population) the Hispanic (they are now a "race" and not a cultrual group).

However, when it comes to homosexuality it comes close to the core of what the Christian religion stands for. Since homosexual acts are considered a sin which is done by thought, word or deed; and since repentance is nessasary for the forgivness of sins; and a person who identifies and accepts his homosexuality would be considered stuborn in their sin; and such a person would not be considered forgiven and futhermore would be subject to correction if a member of the Church; and given that hositng an orginization that accepts members who do so would also be accepting that the perosn is correct to do so; then the Church cannot by its Faith accept such orginizations and host them.
 
Re: Boy Scouts Banned By Alabama Pastor Greg Walker

Take the blue up there. When you go back so far that there just is no more there there, nothing left that can be observed and/or that is measurable, which you previously acknowledged may just be the case, to the point where, perhaps, fact may never be figured out, never “known”....when that far back, how is one to then determine from where we, from where did everything come?


Why are we going over the same thing again. I said it is a mystery.


And there may be those that do not try to“know”, some leave it there. But if one tries take it further, then one is left only with what you may or not decide to believe.

So, why not just tell me what is provable… I will then tell you that everything that came before, well that can but only be a belief. We both have different beliefs, obviously. So, wanna tell me what is provable?
No I don't have to time to school you on the scientific method. If you're interested, do some research.


Is Faith solely reliant upon belief? No bible scholar, here, just know enough to plausibly prove my points. Many of these points might spread across the vast spectrum of historical world religions as well.

No, you say, "no observation, no measurement, no phenomena". Nothing?

Yes

One, many religions say they obtained higher powered assistance. Two the most successful of these, provably, is the monotheist religion following the Jehovah/Jesus belief. Many teachings given in its book form a guide, proven, observably, measurably, perhaps even to the point of achieving the idea of “wildly”, successful…plus more than moderately long-lived, enduring . Provably successful "serving" 2 billion adherents world wide, continuous for what, 2000 years…? Not too shabby one presupposes. Three Has a history, the event phenoena, does it not? Also well documented/much provable. So, isn’t quite a bit of all that measurable? Good teachings from somewhere, credit given to god, voluntarily accepted, more than “mildly” successful…prosperous, powerful even, cross checking many of the states with which there is association.

I didn't say religion wasn't successful or widespread. I said it is a belief.

So how is science so much much more…regale me with the facts again, please? [/COLOR]


Why? You don't want to hear them. Go do some reasearch.



What do you call it when you also cannot prove the origin of something? If origin proving is impossible, would you not, if you wanted to have an answer for where things came from, would you not have to rely upon what you “believe” , as there are just no facts to confirm? When you only have that “believe” part of the equation, you have only your belief system… and we, over here, have ours as well. I cannot care if you are insulted as I cannot not ask this [ am willing to break those dub-neg grammar rules as well ]…

Just how is it that do you not get this? I mean, assuming you do not get it. Had not previously thought I would have had to make that assumption. But through ongoing scientific observation and measurement, I was able to determine that in all probability, tho unfortunate, that you just will not.

Perhaps just cannot, I can assure you I have no idea why. But see, we actually do believe in science as well.

Sorry, that was just too jumbled for me to understand. I'm sure you're right. Good day.
 
Re: Boy Scouts Banned By Alabama Pastor Greg Walker

Do they ban couples living together outside of marriage?

I don't know but they just might do that. Then again they might be advised they consider them maried under common law and would press to formilize it. They would not host an org that openly accepted that status though.


Those who are having sex outside marriage?


If it came to their attention they would admonish their members and would expel them if they did not correct themselves.


Those who lie?

Lying is not a sin in and of itself. Lying with ill intent is of course. I do not know though if that congregation is one who thinks all lies are sin.

Those who cheat?

Thats a sin, if it involved money I guess they would have to deal with the issue.

Those who bully?

Must admonish the one who bullies but again I don't know their policy.



Those who don't come to church every Sunday?

Up to them to establish at what point a person has abandoned the Church.

Those who drink?

Drinking alcohol is not a sin itself but drinking to excess is. Most Christians are NOT grape juice Christians and I doubt that congregation is most Baptists aren't.


When churches start banning sinners??

The issue is unrepentant sin and accepting unrepentant sin.

They've lost the plot. From their tenets:

To recieve forgivness of sin one must repent the sin.


I don't see "except if you're gay" in there anywhere. You?

Since homosexual acts are sin and a sin is thought word or deed and accepting homosexuality as not being sinful makes that counter to what the Church teaches and they cannot host any org that is in direct conflict with their teaching.
 
Re: Boy Scouts Banned By Alabama Pastor Greg Walker

I don't know but they just might do that. Then again they might be advised they consider them maried under common law and would press to formilize it. They would not host an org that openly accepted that status though.

If it came to their attention they would admonish their members and would expel them if they did not correct themselves.

Lying is not a sin in and of itself. Lying with ill intent is of course. I do not know though if that congregation is one who thinks all lies are sin.

Thats a sin, if it involved money I guess they would have to deal with the issue.

Must admonish the one who bullies but again I don't know their policy.

Up to them to establish at what point a person has abandoned the Church.

Drinking alcohol is not a sin itself but drinking to excess is. Most Christians are NOT grape juice Christians and I doubt that congregation is most Baptists aren't.

The issue is unrepentant sin and accepting unrepentant sin.

To recieve forgivness of sin one must repent the sin.

Since homosexual acts are sin and a sin is thought word or deed and accepting homosexuality as not being sinful makes that counter to what the Church teaches and they cannot host any org that is in direct conflict with their teaching.

I think you make a good argument, which is why I Liked your post. I don't agree with those Baptist churches that elect to ban Scout meetings, however. If what you're saying is true, then every Baptist church should ban BSA or close their doors. (And that is certainly not the case.) *shrug*

It occurs to me that those churches who do ban BSA should be actively praying that they're right -- that it is a sin -- that it is a conscious choice. Because if not? Some people are gunna' have some 'splainin' to do. ;)
 
Re: Boy Scouts Banned By Alabama Pastor Greg Walker[W:220]

These so-called Christians act as if all sin can be and should be forgiven, except the sin of being gay.

(which isn't a sin)


But the acts in thought, word and deed are sin and unrepentant sin cannot be forgivenl. This is basic Christiananity.
 
Re: Boy Scouts Banned By Alabama Pastor Greg Walker

Show me in the bible where homosexuality is a worse sin than gluttony. From what I understand gluttony is one of the 7 deadly sins and homosexuality isn't.


Keep in mind that the distinguishment of deadly sins is Catholic doctrine and is not Baptist doctrine. Also gluttony is not just becoming obese, it involves the self centered and self gratification of the consumption of food and other products to the extent that one ignores ones fellow man. A obese man who keeps his fellow man in his heart is not a gulton though one can argue that eating too much is a sin against the body that is the temple which God inhabits.
 
Re: Boy Scouts Banned By Alabama Pastor Greg Walker[W:220]

But the acts in thought, word and deed are sin and unrepentant sin cannot be forgivenl. This is basic Christiananity.

Arent you supposed to love your enemy? That seems like forgiving them even though they sin to me. I personally dont think homosexuality is a sin. I think control freaks used the bible to rally against what they personally think is obscene. But I also beleive that some of the bible is defiled and not wholly true. Ive read too many passages that seem to be made from the mind of a greedy human lord or king. Christians say "I feel in my heart this is true!" Well I feel im my heart that homosexuality isn't a sin. I feel in my heart that men have guided the bible to their whims.
 
Re: Boy Scouts Banned By Alabama Pastor Greg Walker

Keep in mind that the distinguishment of deadly sins is Catholic doctrine and is not Baptist doctrine. Also gluttony is not just becoming obese, it involves the self centered and self gratification of the consumption of food and other products to the extent that one ignores ones fellow man. A obese man who keeps his fellow man in his heart is not a gulton though one can argue that eating too much is a sin against the body that is the temple which God inhabits.

Doesn't really matter, I picked that one randomly. Simply being born human is a terrible sin.
 
Re: Boy Scouts Banned By Alabama Pastor Greg Walker

What makes you angry at me? Science deals with observable, measurable phenomena. Faith deals with beliefs. They aren't in any way connected. Since science can't observe the creation of our universe, it can only make assumptions from what can be observed. So far that isn't enough to figure it all out. It may never be. What does that have to do with faith?

Science deals with reality. Religion deals with fantasy. You're right, they aren't in any way connected, nor is religion demonstrably valid in any way, shape or form. Science can observe back to Planck-time, immediately after the Big Bang. Religion just makes up nonsense out of whole cloth, ideas that can't be tested, and in fact, are specifically constructed to be immune from testing.

There's no demonstrable difference between saying "God did it" and "an invisible worm with a magic wand did it".
 
Re: Boy Scouts Banned By Alabama Pastor Greg Walker

Do they ban couples living together outside of marriage? Those who are having sex outside marriage? Those who lie? Those who cheat? Those who bully? Those who don't come to church every Sunday? Those who drink?

Do they ban people who wear mixed-fabrics or work on the Sabbath? Do they stone unruly children? How many witches have they personally killed? It's just another case of following the parts of the Bible that they like and ignoring the parts that they don't.
 
Re: Boy Scouts Banned By Alabama Pastor Greg Walker[W:220]

These so-called Christians act as if all sin can be and should be forgiven, except the sin of being gay.

(which isn't a sin)
According to the Bible it's a sin.
 
Re: Boy Scouts Banned By Alabama Pastor Greg Walker

Do they ban people who wear mixed-fabrics or work on the Sabbath? Do they stone unruly children? How many witches have they personally killed? It's just another case of following the parts of the Bible that they like and ignoring the parts that they don't.

The Christianophobes do the same thing. They invoked the ever notorious, "WWJD", when preaching about passivism and paying taxes--not even knowing what the latter passage is even referring to--yet insist that homosexuality isn't a sin, when the Bible clearly states that it is.
 
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