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Lawsuit over health care tax could kill ‘Obamacare’

Some fair criticisms on the overall tone of the Brill piece and valid points about possible overreaction to the numbers, but NOTHING at all about the 2.3% durable medical device tax.

So, it seems like you wanted to seem like you were making a point/comment about my post, but actually said nothing at all specifically related to my post and the 2.3% tax.

I mean, anyone can google, and find a contrary opinion, but this Forbes article isn't even a debunking, just more context and background with some sources to POSSIBLE different numbers. The Forbe's piece was quite complimentary: Nevertheless, Mr. Brill has done a great public service in bringing this message to the attention of the general public with eye-opening concrete illustrations that left many readers shaking their heads in disbelief. The Forbe's piece serves to give additional perspective on the numbers in the Brill Piece. So, again, it seems like you only posted the links to seem smart, but didn't even bother to read them yourself. How embarrassing!!

And thank you for this: As I concluded in my first post, Mr. Brill has nicely codified much of what is wrong with American health care.

Yes, I agree.

Obviously. The article was good, but if that was the only thing you knew about healthcare is from his article, which your post sort of implied, I wanted to show you where that information was flawed.

Part one was better then part 2, and at least for me it really tears his argument a part. It's hard to call 4000% markups greed when it only translates to a 2% profit margin on inpatient services. That obviously tells me that there is something else is the problem.
 
Obviously. The article was good, but if that was the only thing you knew about healthcare is from his article, which your post sort of implied, I wanted to show you where that information was flawed.

Part one was better then part 2, and at least for me it really tears his argument a part. It's hard to call 4000% markups greed when it only translates to a 2% profit margin on inpatient services. That obviously tells me that there is something else is the problem.

Nothing was torn up. Gimme a break.

Most of the "facts" in the Forbe's piece were from the writer's own book. It was more a promotional piece than new information.


I did a little research on the author and found out at least one of his books was financed with grants from the Searle Freedom Trust.

I wouldn't call him a shill, but I would just allow the jury to hear about all his associations and incomes for writing article such as this.
 
Nothing was torn up. Gimme a break.

Most of the "facts" in the Forbe's piece were from the writer's own book. It was more a promotional piece than new information.


I did a little research on the author and found out at least one of his books was financed with grants from the Searle Freedom Trust.

I wouldn't call him a shill, but I would just allow the jury to hear about all his associations and incomes for writing article such as this.

Well, if you would like to show me exactly where he was wrong on the issue? He explained it quite clearly, and consistently. I don't think it speaks for the entire country, but my mom works at a children's hospital and they markup just like all the other hospitals in the article and they posted a loss last year.
 
“Obamacare” looks increasingly inevitable, but one lawsuit making its way through the court system could pull the plug on the sweeping federal health care law.

A challenge filed by the Pacific Legal Foundation contends that the Affordable Care Act is unconstitutional because the bill originated in the Senate, not the House. Under the Origination Clause of the Constitution, all bills raising revenue must begin in the House



Read more: Lawsuit over health care tax could kill 'Obamacare' - Washington Times
Follow us: @washtimes on Twitter

the lawsuit will fail.....primarily because Obamacare was a "shell bill".....

a shell bill is a bill passed by the House initially, but then the provisions of that bill are stripped out by the Senate and replaced with..welll.... whatever they want.

Obamacare started in the House.... the House bill addressed tax break for military homeowners.
the military homeowners tax breaks were stripped out of the bill when it reached the Senate, and Obamacare was inserted.


and that,folks, is how you get around Constitutional provisions.... that's your federal government at work.

who here is surprised they can't follow the letter or the spirit of the Constitution?...certainly not me.
 
Nothing was torn up. Gimme a break.

Most of the "facts" in the Forbe's piece were from the writer's own book. It was more a promotional piece than new information.


I did a little research on the author and found out at least one of his books was financed with grants from the Searle Freedom Trust.

I wouldn't call him a shill, but I would just allow the jury to hear about all his associations and incomes for writing article such as this.

Also, your putting the cart before the horse. The author is unlikely to have changed his argument from the time of writing the book to the time of the article, and if those numbers are the core of his argument. I don't see you suggesting that the numbers are wrong. If you want to know why the markup for non-insured are so high, here is why. Because the hospitals have to offer insurance companies "discounts" off their usual rates in exchange for coverage, so they just mark up the rates to show "discounts." A lot of times, hospitals absorb quite a bit of that difference in giving away free healthcare, which currently costs $41B a year. Add in $50B a year in tort costs, another $50B a year in defensive medicine practice, and $290B in costs as a result of noncompliance by patients (mostly diabetics for which there are profound consequences). That is correct, noncompliance by patients contributes nearly 50% more to healthcare costs then the profits of the entire pharmaceutical industry. I would also point out that Brill's own calculations showed that recovering 75% of hospital profits would only yield "savings" of $90B. Hospitals give away a third the amount of money in free healthcare as what they make in profits.

And give me a break. If you want to read up on the guy, here ya go. I think you are trying to attack the man because you honestly don't know how to attack the argument.
 
the lawsuit will fail.....primarily because Obamacare was a "shell bill".....

a shell bill is a bill passed by the House initially, but then the provisions of that bill are stripped out by the Senate and replaced with..welll.... whatever they want.

Obamacare started in the House.... the House bill addressed tax break for military homeowners.
the military homeowners tax breaks were stripped out of the bill when it reached the Senate, and Obamacare was inserted.


and that,folks, is how you get around Constitutional provisions.... that's your federal government at work.

who here is surprised they can't follow the letter or the spirit of the Constitution?...certainly not me.

You are correct about how this abortion came about...about the sleazy way the Democrats forced this piece of crap on us...and I fear you are correct about the probable outcome of this lawsuit. The courts have upheld the validity of this underhanded tactic in the past...they will uphold it this time as well.
 
So a tax that is passed on to people who need durable medical devices is a good thing? I hope you never need one.

"The rich and the health industry would pick up most of the tab."

"A special agent looks into the files of health care fraud cases at a warehouse near Miami on Nov. 23, 2009. Cracking down on health care fraud, which costs Americans billions of dollars a year, is one way the health care reform bill plans to pay for its $940 billion price tag."

Health care reform bill 101: Who will pay for reform? - CSMonitor.com
 
See, here's the problem, you don't even know who is being taxed. I guess Fox News doesn't like to get into the details.
Don't watch Fox News, or any of the overblown wannabe news sites.

Manufactures and importers of durable medical devices will be paying the 2.3% tax. Why? Because the government found out what an outrageous markup they typically charge their customers. The Times Magazine article broke down the durable medical device manufacturer's profit margin and showed how they should not have to raise their prices at all. Those using the tax as an excuse to raise prices are taking advantage of the sick and elderly who are unwilling participants in the health care market -- meaning no one wakes up and decides to go out and buy a durable medical device. When consumers come into that market, they have little choice but to pay the outrageous markup or suffer. Keep in mind that a lot of these elderly specific products are paid by.... dum-dum-dum... Medicare!! And even at the medicare price, they're still making a profit!!

Before commenting further, I suggest reading the Times piece and get a better understanding of how durable medical device manufacture's and importers make billions and can easily afford a 2.3% tax that will go, in part, to the purchase of their products.
I am one of those end users, and I am well aware of who is going to be paying that tax. The tax basis, not a sales tax, but a tax on the actual items value for the market before any deduction for production or marketing. Right off the top tax.

Most DMG's have increased in price over the last 4 years, as with several things, in anticipation of the coming tax levies. R&D for most new DMGs costs a lot of time and research, which this new tax does not take into consideration, impeding further R&D and development of future devices.

I got quite a kick out of your shift of blame: but they make too much profit already! The government should not be involved in judging the right of profit of 'private' companies. If they take that right, what can follow next is judging how much 'profit' individuals have a right to.
 
"The rich and the health industry would pick up most of the tab."

"A special agent looks into the files of health care fraud cases at a warehouse near Miami on Nov. 23, 2009. Cracking down on health care fraud, which costs Americans billions of dollars a year, is one way the health care reform bill plans to pay for its $940 billion price tag."

Health care reform bill 101: Who will pay for reform? - CSMonitor.com

The article is a wee bit out of date, from 2010. Many of the numbers have been revised by the CBO.

And the ACA is far, far from 'healthcare reform', a misnomer of entertaining proportions. It is a mandate of insurance, it addresses nothing to actually 'reform' healthcare.
 
What is your problem with the Affordable HeatlhCare Act, and please provide links to back up your facts.

I will not share by costs with you other than to say my premiums have gone up more in the previous 12 months than the last 12 years "COMBINED". I saw a huge increase when 26 year olds were allowed to stay on parents insurance and all of kids are grown and gone. Now I am having to jump through hoops to keep the great insurance I have had for almost 25 years now because of ACA. Obama is a **** up.
 
they will loose.

the bill was brought in the house first i believe.

Yes, the bill was crafted by the House in November of 2009.
 
“Obamacare” looks increasingly inevitable, but one lawsuit making its way through the court system could pull the plug on the sweeping federal health care law.

A challenge filed by the Pacific Legal Foundation contends that the Affordable Care Act is unconstitutional because the bill originated in the Senate, not the House. Under the Origination Clause of the Constitution, all bills raising revenue must begin in the House



Read more: Lawsuit over health care tax could kill 'Obamacare' - Washington Times
Follow us: @washtimes on Twitter

Here is something to keep in mind:

Say, doesn’t the Constitution require tax bills to originate in the House?
POSTED AT 8:41 PM ON JUNE 28, 2012 BY ALLAHPUNDIT

Just a quickie post to debunk an argument that we’re already seeing in threads and e-mails: Namely, doesn’t Article I, section 7 of the Constitution say that all bills that raise revenue must originate in the House? And didn’t ObamaCare pass the Senate before it passed the House? And doesn’t that in turn mean that our nifty new health care “tax” was passed according to unconstitutional procedures?

Unless I’m missing something, no. The bill that passed the Senate wasn’t technically a Senate bill. Reid took a bill that had already passed the House, stripped out the provisions to turn it into a “shell bill,” and then inserted the text of ObamaCare to get around this requirement. The bill that passed the Senate was H.R. 3590, which initially had to do with tax breaks for military homeowners. And yes, they’ve used the “shell bill” strategy before. In fact, the conservative opinion today specifically mentioned Article I, section 7 at one point while raising no objection to Reid’s sleight of hand. Quote:
For all these reasons, to say that the Individual Mandate merely imposes a tax is not to interpret the statute but to rewrite it. Judicial tax-writing is particularly troubling. Taxes have never been popular, see, e.g., Stamp Actof 1765, and in part for that reason, the Constitution requires tax increases to originate in the House of Representatives. See Art. I, §7, cl. 1. That is to say, they must originate in the legislative body most accountable to the people, where legislators must weigh the need for the tax against the terrible price they might pay at their next election, which is never more than two years off. The Federalist No. 58 “defend[ed] the decision to give the origination power to the House on the ground that the Chamber that is more accountable to the people should have the primary role in raising revenue.” United States v. Munoz-Flores, 495 U. S. 385, 395 (1990). We have no doubt that Congress knew precisely what it was doing when it rejected an earlier version of this legislation that imposed a tax instead of a requirement-with-penalty. See Affordable Health Care for America Act, H. R. 3962, 111th Cong., 1st Sess., §501 (2009); America’s Healthy Future Act of 2009, S. 1796, 111th Cong., 1st Sess., §1301. Imposing a tax through judicial legislation inverts the constitutional scheme, and places the power to tax in the branch of government least accountable to the
citizenry.

The Court tolerates the “shell bill” procedure, I think, because the Seventeenth Amendment has somewhat undermined the Framers’ intent of making sure that tax bills begin in the chamber that’s more accountable to the people. The House is still more accountable, but less so now that the Senate is also popularly elected. And in the case of O-Care, which passed a deep blue House at the time and a barely filibuster-proof Senate, there’s no doubt that the tax-mandate would have passed the House easily even if it had originated there. I suppose O-Care opponents could sue anyway and claim that “shell bills” in tax matters should be deemed unconstitutional because they violate the spirit of Article I, section 7, but c’mon: How likely do you think Roberts would be to say, “You’re right, I totally spaced on the origination clause in my earlier landmark ruling. Decision overturned”?
The silver lining here procedurally is that, now that the mandate’s officially a “tax,” it falls squarely within the parameters of budgetary matters than can be dealt with in the Senate via reconciliation. That means the GOP will only need 51 votes to get rid of it, not 60.
Update: While we’re at it, one more bit debunkery. Some people on Twitter this morning were speculating about whether it’d be legal now to tax guns or abortion in order to regulate them. The problem with those examples is that each involves a constitutional right, which makes taxing them a lot trickier legally. Eugene Volokh wrote a bit about it a few years ago over at his site. You can impose some sort of minimal fees, but once your tax is onerous enough that it’s deemed to have imposed a “substantial” burden on the right in question, it’s unconstitutional.
 
What is your problem with the Affordable HeatlhCare Act, and please provide links to back up your facts.

It's unConstitutional on its very basic facts. Nowhere in Article I, Section 8 does the document give Congress the right to legislate or spend money on healthcare.
 
Yes, the bill was crafted by the House in November of 2009.

yes, yes it was.... and it passed unanimously....416-0 in favor.

....but that was when it was called "Service Members Home Ownership Tax Act of 2009"

the name and all the details were stripped by the Senate... Obamacare was then inserted.

it was then sent back to the house as a reconciliation bill, instead of a conference bill ( to thwart another Senate vote and probable filibuster)


I don't care who ya are, that's some shady dealing....
 
Yes, the bill was crafted by the House in November of 2009.
What bill? Not the one the Senate passed. That's a bit like claiming your Motel 6 originated in Ancient Egypt, because the Pyramids you bulldozed to clear the land had the same street address.
 
The article is a wee bit out of date, from 2010. Many of the numbers have been revised by the CBO.

And the ACA is far, far from 'healthcare reform', a misnomer of entertaining proportions. It is a mandate of insurance, it addresses nothing to actually 'reform' healthcare.



Let's see the newer report from the CBO that states most of the cost is not paid by the wealthy and savings from medicare/medicaid reform?
You also are ignoring that 40 million people have access to preventative health care that didn't have it before.
 
Let's see the newer report from the CBO that states most of the cost is not paid by the wealthy and savings from medicare/medicaid reform?
You also are ignoring that 40 million people have access to preventative health care that didn't have it before.

I don't do people's work for them, it is a well known fact that the CBO has changed the numbers several times. You want the numbers, go find them.

They always had 'access', but now they have insurance. Those aren't the same thing.

Did you know most hospitals and doctors have sliding scales for people without insurance?
Did you know that most hospitals have payment plans available for those without insurance?
Did you know that most Big Pharma companies have special programs for their drugs for low income people?
Did you know that most pharmacies have programs for $3-4-5 perscriptions?
Did you know that no additional access points have been created to service those 40 million people?

What the ACA created was a new revenue flow into the General Fund, and the money can be used to shore up programs that fall short. You can't add 40 million people to an 'insurance policy' and not expect premiums to rise, and it's not just the 'rich' people paying the price, it's your average working person who will be paying it, along with employers, who will pass along their rising costs (both for the insurance and the administrative costs) along in price increases to the consumer.

It is not 'healthcare reform', it is a mandated purchase of a private market product, and the winners are those 'evil' corporations. And who handed them that win?
 
“Obamacare” looks increasingly inevitable, but one lawsuit making its way through the court system could pull the plug on the sweeping federal health care law.

A challenge filed by the Pacific Legal Foundation contends that the Affordable Care Act is unconstitutional because the bill originated in the Senate, not the House. Under the Origination Clause of the Constitution, all bills raising revenue must begin in the House



Read more: Lawsuit over health care tax could kill 'Obamacare' - Washington Times
Follow us: @washtimes on Twitter

they will loose.

the bill was brought in the house first i believe.

Yes, the bill was crafted by the House in November of 2009.

yes, yes it was.... and it passed unanimously....416-0 in favor.

....but that was when it was called "Service Members Home Ownership Tax Act of 2009"

the name and all the details were stripped by the Senate... Obamacare was then inserted.

it was then sent back to the house as a reconciliation bill, instead of a conference bill ( to thwart another Senate vote and probable filibuster)


I don't care who ya are, that's some shady dealing....

I doubt this lawsuit goes anywhere. Contrary to what the summary states at GovTracks.us, the chronology of the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act (H.R. 3590) as outlined at the Library of Congress clearly indicates that the bill did, in fact, originate in the House and was introduced and sponsored by Rep. Charles Rangel on September 17, 2009.

ALL ACTIONS:

9/17/2009: Referred to the House Committee on Ways and Means.
10/7/2009 2:35pm: Mr. Blumenauer moved to suspend the rules and pass the bill.
10/7/2009 2:35pm: Considered under suspension of the rules. (consideration: CR H10550-10554)
10/7/2009 2:35pm: DEBATE - The House proceeded with forty minutes of debate on H.R. 3590.
10/7/2009 3:02pm: At the conclusion of debate, the Yeas and Nays were demanded and ordered. Pursuant to the provisions of clause 8, rule XX, the Chair announced that further proceedings on the motion would be postponed.
10/8/2009 12:08pm: Considered as unfinished business. (consideration: CR H11126-11127)
10/8/2009 12:15pm: On motion to suspend the rules and pass the bill Agreed to by the Yeas and Nays: (2/3 required): 416 - 0 (Roll no. 768). (text: CR 10/7/2009 H10550)
10/8/2009 12:15pm: Motion to reconsider laid on the table Agreed to without objection.
10/8/2009: Received in the Senate. Read the first time. Placed on Senate Legislative Calendar under Read the First Time.
 
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From a February 2013 article titled:
Three ways CBO expects health spending to change

Posted by Sarah Kliff on February 5, 2013 at 2:12 pm

Budget nerds, rejoice! The Congressional Budget Office has just released its new budget outlook.
<SNIP>
1.
Three million fewer Americans will receive health insurance from their employers.


The CBO always expected that some Americans would lose their employer-health insurance under the Affordable Care Act, as some companies may direct their workers to the publicly-subsidized options available on the exchange. In this report though, they significantly increase that number, from 4 to 7 million.
>SNIP>

. 2.Slower health-care cost growth will cut $200 billion in entitlement spending.
Health-care costs have grown slower as of late, at the same rate as the rest of the economy after years of growing faster. Some people think this slowdown is permanent, while others argue it’s temporary, a product of Americans cutting back on health care during the recession.
The Congressional Budget Office, in its traditionally nonpartisan role, hasn’t taken sides in this health wonk battle. But in its just released economic outlook, it does project that this slowdown in health-care spending – no matter how long it lasts – will have some very real effects on our spending. Here’s their take (the bold emphasis my own):

<SNIP>

From the March 2010 baseline to the current baseline, such technical revisions have lowered estimates of federal spending for the two programs in 2020 by about $200 billion—by $126 billion for Medicare and by $78 billion for Medicaid, or by roughly 15 percent for each program.

3. Employers will pay more fines for not providing insurance – but individuals will pay less.

If fewer employers offer health insurance, as the CBO projects, that means that more will be subject to a fine for not providing coverage (this fine only exists for companies with 50 or more employees). The CBO now expects that employers will end up paying $13 billion more in fines for non-compliance with the Affordable Care Act.

On the flip side, the CBO has revised down its expectations for how many people will pay the individual mandate fine, reducing that number by $11 billion.

The reasoning there has to do with revised income projections. If Americans are earning less than previously thought, that means they’re more likely to qualify for a hardship exemption from the mandate.

Three ways CBO expects health spending to change
 
Simple done, from the horses mouth....

And that's dudette to you. :wink:

CBO | Updated Estimates for the Insurance Coverage Provisions of the Affordable Care Act

From your report dudette:

"The ACA’s provisions related to insurance coverage are now projected to have a net cost of $1,252 billion over the 2012–2022 period (see Table 2, following the text); that amount represents a gross cost to the federal government of $1,762 billion, offset in part by $510 billion in receipts and other budgetary effects (primarily revenues from penalties and other sources)."
 
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