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Dick Cheney, Ahmed Chalabi Contemplated Value Of Iraqi Oil To U.S., David Frum Write

Re: Dick Cheney, Ahmed Chalabi Contemplated Value Of Iraqi Oil To U.S., David Frum Wr

The line libs use is we wanted to take over Iraq oil when the truth was we wanted to protect the flow of oil which we rely on, huge difference.

Not really. And considering Bush's fiasco costs us $3T and good will of most of the world, not a good deal either.
 
Re: Dick Cheney, Ahmed Chalabi Contemplated Value Of Iraqi Oil To U.S., David Frum Wr

Is that what I teach my children? Well, on that point, in a round about way, yes. Those who are most prepared, from education, to work experience, will likely fair far better than those who don't. Fact.

However, you're attempt to take the point I made elsewhere is rather foolish, don't you think? You asked about a countries rights, and then predictably bored my response down to children and a neighbor versus neighbor thing. A bit too predictable.

So, as the point relates to what gives a country the right? I stated historical fact. Iraq attempted to take control of a commodity the world depends on to survive. Bad decision. Bigger stick decided the outcome of that decision.



No, I was referring to your policy of taking what you want with a big stick. Is that what you teach your children? Is that the way you think our society should behave? How is it your morals end at our borders?
 
Re: Dick Cheney, Ahmed Chalabi Contemplated Value Of Iraqi Oil To U.S., David Frum Wr

This is conservative code for citation of facts that demolish conservative memes.
Wrong - calling hatred out when it occurs.
 
Re: Dick Cheney, Ahmed Chalabi Contemplated Value Of Iraqi Oil To U.S., David Frum Wr

The Iraq Oil Law

"One of our greatest helpers has been the State Department" - John D Rockefeller (1909)


"One of the more interesting pieces of political maneuvering in occupied Iraq has been the attempt to pass a law governing how Iraq's oil reserves and oil revenues will be divided and what role international oil companies will play in the country.

There have been persistent claims the law is about to be passed for well over a year, but so far the Iraqi Parliament has managed to avoid doing any such thing.

The proposed law has been the subject of a lot of controversy during that time (with the Bush administration making it one of the primary "benchmarks" it wants the Iraqi government to meet), with this summary of "key facts" from Oil Change International being a good outline of the major complaints:

The proposed Iraq hydrocarbon law would take the majority of Iraq’s oil out of the exclusive hands of the Iraqi government and open it to international oil companies for a generation or more. The law is a dramatic break from the past. Foreign oil companies will have a stake in Iraq’s vast oil wealth for the first time since 1972, when Iraq nationalized the oil industry.

BearingPoint, a Virginia based contractor is being paid $240m for its work in Iraq, winning an initial contract from the US Agency for International Development (USAid) within weeks of the fall of Saddam Hussein in 2003. A BearingPoint employee, based in the US embassy in Baghdad, was hired to advise the Iraqi Ministry of Oil on drawing up a new hydrocarbon law. BearingPoint employees gave $117,000 to the 2000 and 2004 Bush election campaigns, more than any other Iraq contractor.

The process of drafting the oil law has been particularly troubling. The timeline of which entities have seen the draft when suggests that Iraqi interests are not being considered first and foremost:

* Draft shown to US government and major oil companies – July 06
* Draft shown to the International Monetary Fund September 06
* Draft shown to Iraqi Parliament: February 07

The Iraq National Oil Company would have exclusive control of just 17 of Iraq’s 80 known oil fields, leaving two-thirds of known — and all of its as yet undiscovered — reserves open to foreign control.

The law sets no minimum standard for the extent to which foreign companies would not have to invest their earnings in the Iraqi economy, partner with Iraqi companies, hire Iraqi workers or share new technologies.

The international oil companies could also be offered some of the most corporate-friendly contracts in the world, including what are called production sharing agreements. These agreements are the oil industry’s preferred model, but are roundly rejected by all the top oil producing countries in the Middle East because they grant long-term contracts (20 to 30 years in the case of Iraq’s draft law) and greater control, ownership and profits to the companies than other models. In fact, they are used for only approximately 12 percent of the world’s oil.

Iraq’s neighbors Iran, Kuwait and Saudi Arabia maintain nationalized oil systems and have outlawed foreign control over oil development. They all hire international oil companies as contractors to provide specific services as needed, for a limited duration, and without giving the foreign company any direct interest in the oil produced

Iraqis may very well choose to use the expertise and experience of international oil companies. They are most likely to do so in a manner that best serves their own needs if they are freed from the tremendous external pressure being exercised by the Bush administration, the oil corporations — and the presence of 140,000 members of the American military.

The leadership of Iraq’s five trade union federations released a statement opposing the law and rejecting ‘’the handing of control over oil to foreign companies, which would undermine the sovereignty of the state and the dignity of the Iraqi people.’’ They ask for more time, less pressure and a chance at the democracy they have been promised.


When I first read about the proposed law, the point that instantly caught my eye was the handing over of all "undiscovered" oil to possible foreign exploitation - which makes a lot of sense if you consider Professor Blair's stories about suppressed oil discoveries back in the old days (along with large swathes of the country remaining unexplored).

Of course, the Iraqi government may have thwarted this particular tactic with it's announcement this year upping reserves to 350 billion barrels, thus restricting the "undiscovered" category to any amount found beyond this number.

The Iraqi Deputy Prime Minister told The Times that new exploration showed that his country has the world’s largest proven oil reserves, with as much as 350 billion barrels. The figure is triple the country’s present proven reserves and exceeds that of Saudi Arabia’s estimated 264 billion barrels of oil. Barham Salih said that the new estimate had been based on recent geological surveys and seismic data compiled by “reputable, international oil companies . . . This is a serious figure from credible sources.”


In the meantime the Iraqis are perhaps hoping they can dawdle over passing any law for as long as it takes for US troops to leave the country - something the Iraqis are asking to occur by 2011.

Various tactics have been tried by the oil companies as well, ranging from attempts to negotiate contracts directly with the Kurdish regional government in the north, to a range of no bid oil contracts (later cancelled) to the recent sell-off discussions in London that I started the post with (the outcome of which doesn't seem to have been reported anywhere that I can find)."

"Of course it’s about oil, we can’t really deny that" - General John Abizaid (2007)


"People say we’re not fighting for oil. Of course we are. They talk about America’s national interest. What the hell do you think they’re talking about? We’re not there for figs!" - Republican Senator Charles Hagel

Peak Energy: Iraq's Oil: The Greatest Prize Of All
 
Re: Dick Cheney, Ahmed Chalabi Contemplated Value Of Iraqi Oil To U.S., David Frum Wr

National Interest? War and oil or war and soldiers or the price of war. OR reality.

Truthdig - The Last Letter

"I joined the Army two days after the 9/11 attacks. I joined the Army because our country had been attacked. I wanted to strike back at those who had killed some 3,000 of my fellow citizens. I did not join the Army to go to Iraq, a country that had no part in the September 2001 attacks and did not pose a threat to its neighbors, much less to the United States. I did not join the Army to “liberate” Iraqis or to shut down mythical weapons-of-mass-destruction facilities or to implant what you cynically called “democracy” in Baghdad and the Middle East. I did not join the Army to rebuild Iraq, which at the time you told us could be paid for by Iraq’s oil revenues. Instead, this war has cost the United States over $3 trillion. I especially did not join the Army to carry out pre-emptive war. Pre-emptive war is illegal under international law. And as a soldier in Iraq I was, I now know, abetting your idiocy and your crimes. The Iraq War is the largest strategic blunder in U.S. history. It obliterated the balance of power in the Middle East. It installed a corrupt and brutal pro-Iranian government in Baghdad, one cemented in power through the use of torture, death squads and terror. And it has left Iran as the dominant force in the region. On every level—moral, strategic, military and economic—Iraq was a failure. And it was you, Mr. Bush and Mr. Cheney, who started this war. It is you who should pay the consequences. "
 
Re: Dick Cheney, Ahmed Chalabi Contemplated Value Of Iraqi Oil To U.S., David Frum Wr

Throughout history wars have been fought over vital resources and access to them from sugar and spice to rubber and now oil, nothing new here.
 
Re: Dick Cheney, Ahmed Chalabi Contemplated Value Of Iraqi Oil To U.S., David Frum Wr

No, I was referring to your policy of taking what you want with a big stick. Is that what you teach your children? Is that the way you think our society should behave? How is it your morals end at our borders?

Again, your response is quite predictable. I didn't write anything about "my policy". That's your projection.

You asked what gives a country the right to interfere in another countries business. I wrote Big Stick Wins. The fact is, that's been the the way the world has operated since time began.

It serves no purpose whatsoever to use your liberal bias to try to denegrate my comments, or make them a reflection of some personal belief. In fact, the more you continue, the more trite they appear. Perhaps you should avoid doing that.
 
Re: Dick Cheney, Ahmed Chalabi Contemplated Value Of Iraqi Oil To U.S., David Frum Wr

Again, your response is quite predictable. I didn't write anything about "my policy". That's your projection.

You asked what gives a country the right to interfere in another countries business. I wrote Big Stick Wins. The fact is, that's been the the way the world has operated since time began.

It serves no purpose whatsoever to use your liberal bias to try to denegrate my comments, or make them a reflection of some personal belief. In fact, the more you continue, the more trite they appear. Perhaps you should avoid doing that.


I see you suggest separating the morality of one's personal actions with those we pay to represent us. Very convenient!
 
Re: Dick Cheney, Ahmed Chalabi Contemplated Value Of Iraqi Oil To U.S., David Frum Wr

Throughout history wars have been fought over vital resources and access to them from sugar and spice to rubber and now oil, nothing new here.

Not a big believer in property rights, eh? Through much of the world's history there were slaves. Does that make slavery right?
 
Re: Dick Cheney, Ahmed Chalabi Contemplated Value Of Iraqi Oil To U.S., David Frum Wr

Throughout history wars have been fought over vital resources and access to them from sugar and spice to rubber and now oil, nothing new here.

If we're not better than that, then soldiers should refuse to fight, especially since Iraq just made the rich richer and the poor poorer.
 
Re: Dick Cheney, Ahmed Chalabi Contemplated Value Of Iraqi Oil To U.S., David Frum Wr

Remember how Bush snorted that he'd let historians decide whether invading Iraq was sound policy. They have. Looking back ten years, virtually every historian of foreign policy has deemed the Iraqi misadventure a total failure in every way.

I would just note that Bush was so inept that he had Bremer in there rewriting the tax code and imposing "No Child Left Behind" on Iraqi schools, while the chaos of the insurgency flared. That's how clueless Bush and his conservative crew were.
 
Re: Dick Cheney, Ahmed Chalabi Contemplated Value Of Iraqi Oil To U.S., David Frum Wr

I see you suggest separating the morality of one's personal actions with those we pay to represent us. Very convenient!

Well, I see that you have a difficult time separating a statement of fact from a personal opinion. I'm afraid I can offer no words that could help you with such a shortcoming.
 
Re: Dick Cheney, Ahmed Chalabi Contemplated Value Of Iraqi Oil To U.S., David Frum Wr

Well, I see that you have a difficult time separating a statement of fact from a personal opinion. I'm afraid I can offer no words that could help you with such a shortcoming.

Are you saying now you do not support the US and the UK invading Iraq to control the flow of oil from there? Before I understood you were. Please clarify.
 
Re: Dick Cheney, Ahmed Chalabi Contemplated Value Of Iraqi Oil To U.S., David Frum Wr

Are you saying now you do not support the US and the UK invading Iraq to control the flow of oil from there? Before I understood you were. Please clarify.

It seems you might be having some difficulty retaining context and content.

Let me refresh the original exchange.


Originally Posted by Catawba

By invasion and disposing of the government of a sovereign nation? What right do we have to interfere with how another country manages its property?

ocean515 response
Biggest stick wins. History of the World.​

You asked about a countries right to interfere with how another country manages its property. I pointed out the fact that throughout history the "right" has been contained in the size of the "stick" the other country has. That simple fact has led to the world as we know it today. I offered no moral judgement, nor condemned or supported any action.

Perhaps your ideology could be tamed a bit, so it doesn't impede your ability to comprehend what others have written.
 
Re: Dick Cheney, Ahmed Chalabi Contemplated Value Of Iraqi Oil To U.S., David Frum Wr

It seems you might be having some difficulty retaining context and content.

Let me refresh the original exchange.


Originally Posted by Catawba

By invasion and disposing of the government of a sovereign nation? What right do we have to interfere with how another country manages its property?

ocean515 response
Biggest stick wins. History of the World.​

You asked about a countries right to interfere with how another country manages its property. I pointed out the fact that throughout history the "right" has been contained in the size of the "stick" the other country has. That simple fact has led to the world as we know it today. I offered no moral judgement, nor condemned or supported any action.

Perhaps your ideology could be tamed a bit, so it doesn't impede your ability to comprehend what others have written.




Do you support a country interfering with how another country manages its property, if they have a bigger stick? Or, not? Simple question.
 
Re: Dick Cheney, Ahmed Chalabi Contemplated Value Of Iraqi Oil To U.S., David Frum Wr

And all of that means?

...basically nothing except to those with BDS. I mean why else would put any worth in an article from David Frum.
 
Re: Dick Cheney, Ahmed Chalabi Contemplated Value Of Iraqi Oil To U.S., David Frum Wr

Do you support a country interfering with how another country manages its property, if they have a bigger stick? Or, not? Simple question.

Finally, a question.

The simple answer is, maybe. History of the World, Part 2. (Sorry Mr. Brooks)

That's why it's important to have a big stick, if not the biggest.

For example, I would have no problem using such a stick if another country was chosing to massacre it's citizens. That's a good use of a big stick.

I would have no problem using such a stick if another country was chosing to use it's property to inflict pain, suffering, and death on other countries. That too is a good use of a big stick.

I would have a problem using such a stick to interfere with another country, just because it could be done. That would be a bad use of a big stick.

Does that answer your question?
 
Re: Dick Cheney, Ahmed Chalabi Contemplated Value Of Iraqi Oil To U.S., David Frum Wr

Finally, a question.

The simple answer is, maybe. History of the World, Part 2. (Sorry Mr. Brooks)

That's why it's important to have a big stick, if not the biggest.

For example, I would have no problem using such a stick if another country was chosing to massacre it's citizens. That's a good use of a big stick.

I would have no problem using such a stick if another country was chosing to use it's property to inflict pain, suffering, and death on other countries. That too is a good use of a big stick.

I would have a problem using such a stick to interfere with another country, just because it could be done. That would be a bad use of a big stick.

Does that answer your question?


No, you successfully avoided answering the question as to the subject of the thread. Previously you said what we did in Iraq to control their property has been done historically by those that carry a big stick. I am asking if you personally support that action in Iraq that you say has been the acceptable norm throughout history?
 
Re: Dick Cheney, Ahmed Chalabi Contemplated Value Of Iraqi Oil To U.S., David Frum Wr

No, you successfully avoided answering the question as to the subject of the thread. Previously you said what we did in Iraq to control their property has been done historically by those that carry a big stick. I am asking if you personally support that action in Iraq that you say has been the acceptable norm throughout history?

I've posted what I wrote. I am not responsible for your inability to comprehend what I have now stated twice in writting.

You have asked another question, this time involving Iraq. Do you understand that your question presupposes we invaded Iraq simply because we could?
 
Re: Dick Cheney, Ahmed Chalabi Contemplated Value Of Iraqi Oil To U.S., David Frum Wr

I've posted what I wrote. I am not responsible for your inability to comprehend what I have now stated twice in writting.

You have asked another question, this time involving Iraq. Do you understand that your question presupposes we invaded Iraq simply because we could?

Only if you ignore the OP and the thread discussion. The reason for the invasion was the oil, which you formerly suggested was an historically acceptable thing to do.
But you refuse to state whether you personally support that historically acceptable thing to do. Why?
 
Re: Dick Cheney, Ahmed Chalabi Contemplated Value Of Iraqi Oil To U.S., David Frum Wr

Only if you ignore the OP and the thread discussion. The reason for the invasion was the oil, which you formerly suggested was an historically acceptable thing to do.
But you refuse to state whether you personally support that historically acceptable thing to do. Why?

Gee whiz. You asked what gives a country the right to interfere. I wrote big stick wins.

Frankly, Iraq at one time decided to murder and maim to get control of close to half the Worlds oil supply. The World said guess again. I have no problem with that.

Play nice, or get hit with big stick. History of the world. Deal with it.
 
Re: Dick Cheney, Ahmed Chalabi Contemplated Value Of Iraqi Oil To U.S., David Frum Wr

Gee whiz. You asked what gives a country the right to interfere. I wrote big stick wins.

Frankly, Iraq at one time decided to murder and maim to get control of close to half the Worlds oil supply. The World said guess again. I have no problem with that.

Play nice, or get hit with big stick. History of the world. Deal with it.



I don't know about you but I don't condone my country committing immoral acts in my name.
 
Re: Dick Cheney, Ahmed Chalabi Contemplated Value Of Iraqi Oil To U.S., David Frum Wr

I don't know about you but I don't condone my country committing immoral acts in my name.

Of course you condone your country committing immoral acts in your name, as long as YOU get to decide what is moral and immoral.
 
Re: Dick Cheney, Ahmed Chalabi Contemplated Value Of Iraqi Oil To U.S., David Frum Wr

Of course you condone your country committing immoral acts in your name, as long as YOU get to decide what is moral and immoral.


We all decide what is moral and what is immoral. I think killing others for control of their property is immoral, its just the way I was raised I guess.
 
Re: Dick Cheney, Ahmed Chalabi Contemplated Value Of Iraqi Oil To U.S., David Frum Wr

We all decide what is moral and what is immoral. I think killing others for control of their property is immoral, its just the way I was raised I guess.

Well, I think projecting to denegrate others is a pretty serious character flaw. I guess that's just the way I was raised.
 
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