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McCain claims ‘massive cover-up’ on Benghazi

Given what we already know you have to know that what you wrote is a lie.

The battle lasted about 8 hours. The Information Officer was killed in the initial attack. It is unclear when the Ambassador was killed or under what circumstances.
Doherty and Woods bled out while still fighting seven hours later.

The president was aware because Panetta told him at the beginning of the battle. Then the president washed his hands and disappeared for eight hours. He abandoned them to die. Then he lied about it for nearly three weeks.

So have you not read the official report of what happened, or do you simply not care what the truth is?

You have 150 militants attacking with RPGs. A simple helicopter will take them out? Come on, man, I'm glad you're not in command, because you don't seem to have any concept of reality. Our embassy was attacked -- that's terrible, but you have to understand that it isn't a military base. We are not prepared to bring massive amounts of firepower anywhere in the world at any second. We were able to get men in there to defend the CIA annex and we had soldiers who went to help Mr. Stevens and the other two men with him.

Obama needs to answer the questions as to why the security was so lax and how we'll prevent another instance of loss of life like this one. Should he answer as to why he didn't just get in there and kick ass instantly? No, because he shouldn't care what people who are living in a fantasy world think.
 
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Oh, sure. 17k remaining personel and a continuted committment to cooperation = "Kicked their ass out!"

Sure am glad we didn't elect McCain who was fine with military troops being in Iraq for the next 100 years!

"U.S. Senator John McCain (R-AZ) today issued the following statement regarding President Obama’s decision to withdraw all American troops from Iraq by the end of this year:

“Today marks a harmful and sad setback for the United States in the world. I respectfully disagree with the President: this decision will be viewed as a strategic victory for our enemies in the Middle East, especially the Iranian regime, which has worked relentlessly to ensure a full withdrawal of U.S. troops from Iraq.
 
It would count as a cross border operation if the aircraft had been armed and engaged in battle. It is not just crossing a border it is conducting operations.

You are in the military, at least you claim to be, you should know that "operation" does not only apply to those things which involve battle. You're redefining your previous argument to pretend it was something other than what is was because a weakness has been exposed.

The State Department did nothing and are covering up. It seems to be working as some people unable to construct a timeline are eager to buy the lie. And yet the timeline exists. The battle lasted nearly eight hours and two Americans bled out while fighting more than seven hours after the attack began. That is plenty of time to respond. The State Department ought to stick to their tea parties and leave the fighting to real Americans.

My my. It is not as if there are not excellent timelines already out there. If you wanted to know you would know.[/quote]

Whats your source? Hell whats your argument? You're just stating it as if its a matter of fact, and you aren't even defining what you exactly mean by response. A UAV was over head, in response, to the attack but I doubt that's what you mean by response. So could you please define your argument a little better? And being an "intelligence officer" you should know that there's more to response than time, there's the degree of the desired response, obviously larger responses take more time, and there's the location of assets and personnel desired for the response to consider as well. Something I think even a 2nd rate intelligence officer should know.

Cross border operations are military operations, crossing the border of a nation we are not at war with to fight. Flying two hospital aircraft into Libya to pick up the bodies is not a cross border operation. It could be a part of one if combat forces had been moved across the border to fight. I understand that for someone who has not served this is a distinction easily missed. I should have been clearer a few messages back.

It's a military operation that crosses a border, what more do you want? Also you keep talking as if there is one rule for all cross border operations, in fact ROE changes all over the world, to cross one border is not the same as crossing any other border. The fact that you haven't talked about crossing the Libyan border, and instead just borders in general, makes me think you don't know this fact.

Ultimately, after developing the situation, direct the State Department to coordinate with the Libyan government to let them know we were coming with combat troops to secure the consulate and the Annex. Direct the SECDEF to determine what combat assets were ready or could be made ready. I would have had him go to the Situation Room to be prepared to give the orders to go once the SECDEF and the CJCS positioned the assets to cross the border. The Secretary of Defense has the authority to put everything in motion. I believe that only the president can direct that the military cross that border to conduct military operations.

Combat aircraft that were two hours away could have been launched and enroute withing a few minutes, perhaps as few as five to fifteen minutes. The second set of aircraft could have been launched withing 30 minutes to an hour. After that we could have launched the rest of the squadron in about two more hours.

I do not know what ground forces were available but at least one response team was nearby. Had they reached the Annex four hours after the start of the battle they would have been in position to decisively change the nature of that battle over the last three hours of the fight.

This is incorrect. Long ago when I was young and the Earth was still cooling we could get critical information to the president from anywhere in the world in about ten minutes. The White House Situation Room has adequate comms to all of our forces for the president to order and for the military to respond to his orders very quickly.

The President did not need to order that the forces launch, he need only authorize cross border combat operations before the forces actually crossed the border.

I'm sorry did you not read my quotes from the State Department investigation? Military forces did CROSS THE BORDER and did so WITHOUT Presidential authorization, its a pure and simple fact that cannot be denied. And your suggestion is to have the CJCS move military assets? You clearly, CLEARLY, do not know that the CJCS is NOT a commander, and has NO command authority in the United States military. The highest levels of military command in the world are currently the Unified Combatant Command Commanders, ie the Commanders of AFRICOM, CENTCOM, etc who report directly to the SECDEF NOT to the President. Your suggestion is completely off base and shows your ignorance of how command works at that level.

And do you have a source about these aircraft? Do you know that they could have been launched in 5 to 15 minutes? What if they were not fully armed or fueled, you don't know that, you're just assuming and making guesses. Again, something a decent intelligence officer would not be doing? And a decent intelligence officer would have a source, not personal anecdotes and opinions.

That would be fine if you were arguing from facts. You are not.

I think the difference between us is that I served as an intelligence officer on an airborne command post. I was also an intelligence officer in a major command headquarters (think CENTCOM, AFRICOM, PACOM...) and know what is possible.

Everything you've posted is an opinion. Facts have sources, facts are undeniable, facts are backed.

SHOW ME A SOURCE
 
We will never know, because they were ignored. A 30-second soundbite and the incidents went into the files of history. Incidents involving US interests only seem to be important when they are named Kenya, Tanzania, and Benghazi. I wonder what the commonality is.
If there is an example of any of those attacks involving an eight hour battle we can judge what that president did or failed to do.

I believe the right answer is that none of them involved battles. There is a big difference between a bomb detonating and a battle that lasts for eight hours. This was not an incident. It was a battle.
 
You are in the military, at least you claim to be, you should know that "operation" does not only apply to those things which involve battle. You're redefining your previous argument to pretend it was something other than what is was because a weakness has been exposed.
What are we talking about in this thread? I was discussing moving combat forces to come to the aid of the defenders in Benghazi. What were you talking about?

Cross border operations in this context is for the purpose of conducting combat operations. I though the context was very clear. It is not possible that you are stupid. One look at you name says that even you do not believe you are stupid.

I was in the Army. Twenty years. For about five of those years I served in joint assignments at major headquarters.

Now if you want to talk about cross border operations in the context of training those are well coordinated ahead of time with the host country. They do not include combat on the host nation's soil.

Or would you like to discuss something other than Benghazi? There are one or two other message threads for those.
 
Whats your source? Hell whats your argument? You're just stating it as if its a matter of fact, and you aren't even defining what you exactly mean by response. A UAV was over head, in response, to the attack but I doubt that's what you mean by response. So could you please define your argument a little better? And being an "intelligence officer" you should know that there's more to response than time, there's the degree of the desired response, obviously larger responses take more time, and there's the location of assets and personnel desired for the response to consider as well. Something I think even a 2nd rate intelligence officer should know.
Are you unaware of the story? Al Quada attacked a consulate in Benghazi, Libya. They used small arms fire supported by heavy machine guns, rocket propelled grenades and mortars to over run the consulate. They set fire to the buildings. This alarmed the consulate staff who set up both open phone lines and encrypted lines to beg for help.

A while later Al Qaeda forces engaged four CIA operators who arrived, rounded up the survivors, recovered Smith's body and left to return to the CIA Annex. They continued to engage them all the way back to the annex.

The embassy in Tripoli sent a small aircraft to Benghazi with a few people on board. They had so little force they were unable to leave the airport in any reasonable amount of time to assist the Americans.

Africom, who had UAVs watching chemical agent storage areas, diverted an unarmed UAV about an hour into the battle.

There were forces in the region capable of responding (and rendering aid) but were not launched in response.

Al Qaeda attacked the CIA Annex killing two defenders.

The president attended a fund raiser.

You want to know what a response to an armed attack is? A response is sending assets--people, aircraft, armed UAVs, capable of shooting back to aid in the defense of our people and property. It is not answering the phone, offering a prayer, notifying next of kin, or lying to the American people for the next three weeks.

I hope that clears up what a response is.

It's a military operation that crosses a border, what more do you want?
I shall be more careful in explaining the obvious to you in the future. A cross border operation where we are intending to engage in combat operations on another nation's territory, when we are not at war with that nation, is not something a local commander can approve.

We are talking about US forces coming to Benghazi to kill people and break things. We are not talking about unarmed planes landing to pick up the bodies and fly home.

Also you keep talking as if there is one rule for all cross border operations, in fact ROE changes all over the world, to cross one border is not the same as crossing any other border. The fact that you haven't talked about crossing the Libyan border, and instead just borders in general, makes me think you don't know this fact.
I was here to discus Obama's Benghazi Massacre and the Abandoned Four. What were you discussing?

'm sorry did you not read my quotes from the State Department investigation? Military forces did CROSS THE BORDER and did so WITHOUT Presidential authorization, its a pure and simple fact that cannot be denied.
Not to conduct combat operations. The only response was by a force already in the country. I no longer remember whether they were armed or not. From memory I believe even the unarmed UAVs were already in Libya.

And your suggestion is to have the CJCS move military assets? You clearly, CLEARLY, do not know that the CJCS is NOT a commander, and has NO command authority in the United States military. The highest levels of military command in the world are currently the Unified Combatant Command Commanders, ie the Commanders of AFRICOM, CENTCOM, etc who report directly to the SECDEF NOT to the President. Your suggestion is completely off base and shows your ignorance of how command works at that level.

The Chairman acts as the president's principal military advisor. I believe he was with the SECDEF when Benghazi was discussed. The White House Situation room has plenty of capability to pass the president's orders to the combatant commanders. Given that the SECDEF was already at the White House doesn't it make sense to you to use the White House Communications capabilities to discuss, coordinate and issue orders?

I think you intentionally misunderstand. No biggie. Some people are like that.

And do you have a source about these aircraft? Do you know that they could have been launched in 5 to 15 minutes? What if they were not fully armed or fueled, you don't know that, you're just assuming and making guesses. Again, something a decent intelligence officer would not be doing? And a decent intelligence officer would have a source, not personal anecdotes and opinions.
It is possible under this president that no military forces anywhere in the world are ready to respond to surprise situations.

When I was on active duty we had ready forces all over the world including alert forces that could be aloft in a very few minutes. The first aircraft launched most likely would not have had the right weapons on board to successfully engage the Al Qaeda forces in Benghazi. But their presence overhead would have changed the attack dynamics.

The second flight would have had time to change stores to something more appropriate to support ground operations.

Everything you've posted is an opinion. Facts have sources, facts are undeniable, facts are backed.

SHOW ME A SOURCE

If you don't already know everything I have mentioned it is because you choose to remain in the dark.
 
Jon Stewart skewered John McCain and the GOP Benghazi BS last night.

McCain is shown to be the pathetic hypocrite that he truly is.

 
I do not believe we have ever had an eight hour battle before. One American, the Information Officer Smith was killed in the initial attack. Woods and Doherty bled out as they continued to fight more than seven hours later.

Panetta says he had a fifteen minute conversation with Obama at the beginning of the battle. Then Obama went missing and did not turn up for another eight hours after the Abandoned Four had all been murdered by Obama's new found Islamofascist buddies.
Why is Obama wrecking America while helping the Islamofascists in the Middle East and Africa?
You're deliberatly being dishonest because it wasn't a continuous 8 hour battle and Obama wasn't made notified of the attacks until after the first attack was over....and after meeting with Panetta he gave a direct order to do everything possible to save the remaining personel at the compound. So who are you going to blame now?



"Defense Secretary Leon Panetta says the U.S. military did not intervene during the attack on the U.S. Consulate in Libya last month because it was over before the U.S. has sufficient information on which to act...."
Panetta: Unclear early info slowed Benghazi response - CBS News


"Panetta noted that Congress, too, plays a role in the security of the nation's diplomatic missions, and that the Department of Defense faces the prospect of sequestration -- which would result in billions of dollars of cutbacks to the Defense budget -- on March 1. "If Congress fails to act, sequestration is triggered," he said...."
Panetta, Dempsey defend U.S. response to Benghazi attack - CNN.com

After March 1 it will be the fault of congress for not providing enough funding for security at US embassys...oh wait, they didn't provide enough funding for Bengazi's security either. Republicans are real keen on fighting unfunded wars and like everything else wrong with this country the congress is just going to make it worse, not better.
 
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So have you not read the official report of what happened, or do you simply not care what the truth is?
I have read a great deal.

You have 150 militants attacking with RPGs.
More likely there was an assault platoon armed with rifles, light machine guns and grenades. They were supported by a heavy weapons platoon with heavy machine guns (truck mounted), Rocket propelled grenades, and mortars. There was an intelligence exploitation section. I believe there were at least two squad-sized blocking positions. There was a command and control section to coordinate the activities.

I do not believe I read this anywhere. But I did listen to the initial reports about the nature of the attack and saw evidence for this organizational structure.

A simple helicopter will take them out?
Who argued that? My plan of action included UAVs, high performance aircraft, a quick response team of up to ten men dropped in, followed by a larger force prepared to drop in (based on the reports from the first force) all backed up by a reinforced company - to a battalion minus airlifted into the airport to gain control of all US assets in Benghazi upon their arrival.

Come on, man, I'm glad you're not in command, because you don't seem to have any concept of reality.
Maybe I do. Maybe I don't. I believe I do.

Our embassy was attacked -- that's terrible, but you have to understand that it isn't a military base. We are not prepared to bring massive amounts of firepower anywhere in the world at any second. We were able to get men in there to defend the CIA annex and we had soldiers who went to help Mr. Stevens and the other two men with him.
The president could have done a great deal but chose to do nothing.

I think we could have had continuous air cover over Benghazi beginning around hour two of the eight hour battle. Instead we did nothing. There were naval assets available. I saw evidence of a destroyer off the coast of Libya. We had UAVs monitoring chemical weapons sites in the Libyan desert. We monitored the battle using diverted UAVs.

I think we could have dropped in a rapid response team (by whatever name they go by today) around hour three or four. Backed by airpower we could have won that battle.

Obama needs to answer the questions as to why the security was so lax and how we'll prevent another instance of loss of life like this one. Should he answer as to why he didn't just get in there and kick ass instantly? No, because he shouldn't care what people who are living in a fantasy world think.
He must account for where he was and why he was not engaged while Americans were fighting Islamofascists to their deaths in his Massacre.

He must be held accountable for his disastrous foreign policy.
 
You're deliberatly being dishonest because it wasn't a continuous 8 hour battle and Obama wasn't made notified of the attacks until after the first attack was over....and after meeting with Panetta he gave a direct order to do everything possible to save the remaining personel at the compound. So who are you going to blame now?
No battle is continuous. They ebb and flow.

I believe it is a lie that the the president did not know until after the battle was over. Based on when the SECDEF was meeting with Obama he most likely knew the consulate was under attack around the half hour mark. The battle lasted nearly eight hours.

If Obama really gave the orders he is claiming to have made then why did Panetta keep his job? He should have been fired the very next day. Perhaps the president wad daydreaming about flying to a fundraiser the next day. He was detached, disinterested, cold to the murders of Americans. At the time he was told his Ambassador was missing. He didn't care. He went missing for the next eight hours.

"Defense Secretary Leon Panetta says the U.S. military did not intervene during the attack on the U.S. Consulate in Libya last month because it was over before the U.S. has sufficient information on which to act...."
Panetta: Unclear early info slowed Benghazi response - CBS News
I understand the cover up. I understand the lies. I understand the politics. The president did not want to be involved just in case it did not go well. So he abandoned four Americans to their deaths so his chances of re-election would remain strong.

"Panetta noted that Congress, too, plays a role in the security of the nation's diplomatic missions, and that the Department of Defense faces the prospect of sequestration -- which would result in billions of dollars of cutbacks to the Defense budget -- on March 1. "If Congress fails to act, sequestration is triggered," he said...."
Panetta, Dempsey defend U.S. response to Benghazi attack - CNN.com

I do not understand why you would repeat their lies. Obama's failure to render defense aid to Americans in battle is unrelated to the very timy cuts coming on March first unless the incredibly feckless Boehner capitulates once again.

After March 1 it will be the fault of congress for not providing enough funding for security at US embassys...oh wait, they didn't provide enough funding for Bengazi's security either. Like everything else wrong with this country the Republican congress is just going to make it worse, not better.
I even understand why the weak-minded and gullible fall for the fear mongering.
 
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He must account for where he was and why he was not engaged while Americans were fighting Islamofascists to their deaths in his Massacre.

He must be held accountable for his disastrous foreign policy.

Some Presidents are more hands-on while others prefer to delegate. No war-room staged pic of the President being Presidential as there was with bin Laden.

Where was Secretary of State Clinton? This was her watch, and her Congressional testimony--her exasperated "What difference does it make?" --makes her unfit, at least in my mind, to EVER serve as the Commander in Chief. She screwed up, participated in all the deliberate obfuscation (I surely would like to hear what the survivors of the massacre have to say), and then tried in that testimony to trivialize what happened.

If I were the GOP, my first commercial in 2016 would that that one sound byte, followed by the voiceover of "She just doesn't get it."
 
“Why were the vice president and a group of oilmen poring over maps of Iraq long before there was any pretext to invade the country? Iraq’s oil was technically embargoed and under UN control—why make plans for divvying up oil reserves?”

a999iraqoilmap_2050081722-23602.jpg


US Environmental Record: Cheney Energy Task Force



Poor guy, look at what his party has done to him.
 
Jon Stewart skewered John McCain and the GOP Benghazi BS last night.

McCain is shown to be the pathetic hypocrite that he truly is.


I think we should obstruct everything Obama does. Let's try getting a bit of transparency into this Executive branch.
 
Some Presidents are more hands-on while others prefer to delegate. No war-room staged pic of the President being Presidential as there was with bin Laden.

Delegation is fine for many things. I do not think it is ever acceptable to have one brief conversation about this battle and then move on to prepare for a fund raiser.

Where was Secretary of State Clinton? This was her watch, and her Congressional testimony--her exasperated "What difference does it make?" --makes her unfit, at least in my mind, to EVER serve as the Commander in Chief. She screwed up, participated in all the deliberate obfuscation (I surely would like to hear what the survivors of the massacre have to say), and then tried in that testimony to trivialize what happened.

If I were the GOP, my first commercial in 2016 would that that one sound byte, followed by the voiceover of "She just doesn't get it."
We may not make it to 2016.

The fight belongs to the States now.
 
I think we should obstruct everything Obama does. Let's try getting a bit of transparency into this Executive branch.

There is an adult tactic that works so well.

McCain has no business calling foul on anything in DC given his pathetic record.

If you want transparency, you need to look at those 535 fools in Congress who can do nothing constructive.

McCain can go first.
 
I think we should remember Ambassador Stevens, Sean Smith, Brian Dougherty, and Ty Wood.
 
There is an adult tactic that works so well.
Obstruction is a fine political tool. Obama is a dangerous tyrant. Everything he wants must be obstructed.

McCain has no business calling foul on anything in DC given his pathetic record.

If you want transparency, you need to look at those 535 fools in Congress who can do nothing constructive.

McCain can go first.
Republicans are a minority party. It is their job to obstruct the majority tyranny. Let us hope they do their jobs very well.
 
I think we should remember Ambassador Stevens, Sean Smith, Brian Dougherty, and Ty Wood.

No, our leaders have not at all.

They use them to score political points, like any other tragedy.

Our leaders are pathetic examples, and are embarrassing our entire country.

I wonder how many of these Congressional cheap shot artists actually attended their funerals?
 
No, our leaders have not at all.

They use them to score political points, like any other tragedy.

Our leaders are pathetic examples, and are embarrassing our entire country.

I wonder how many of these Congressional cheap shot artists actually attended their funerals?

No, what is really tragic is that four Americans died fighting for their lives and when questions are raised as to what happened it is called trying "to score political points".

Obama supporters must have the curiosity of a toadstool.
 
No, what is really tragic is that four Americans died fighting for their lives and when questions are raised as to what happened it is called trying "to score political points".

Obama supporters must have the curiosity of a toadstool.

Have another sip of that Koolaid!
 

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I'm not a Kool-Aid drinker, but I do agree with Grant that it's tragic that these four Americans died fighting for their lives and that when questions are raised about what happened, the accusation is made that this genuine interest and concern for what's right is a craven attempt to seize an opportunity or simply "Kool-Aid drinking."
 
Some Presidents are more hands-on while others prefer to delegate. No war-room staged pic of the President being Presidential as there was with bin Laden.

Where was Secretary of State Clinton? This was her watch, and her Congressional testimony--her exasperated "What difference does it make?" --makes her unfit, at least in my mind, to EVER serve as the Commander in Chief. She screwed up, participated in all the deliberate obfuscation (I surely would like to hear what the survivors of the massacre have to say), and then tried in that testimony to trivialize what happened.

If I were the GOP, my first commercial in 2016 would that that one sound byte, followed by the voiceover of "She just doesn't get it."
Indeed, "I take responsibility" would be quite a shocker to the GOP base who wear their personal responsibility on their sleeves.


October 16, 2012

"I take responsibility," Clinton told CNN in an interview while on a visit to Peru. "I'm in charge of the State Department's 60,000-plus people all over the world, 275 posts. The president and the vice president wouldn't be knowledgeable about specific decisions that are made by security professionals. They're the ones who weigh all of the threats and the risks and the needs and make a considered decision."....read
Clinton: I'm responsible for diplomats' security - CNN.com
 
Note the date Clinton made this statement. Too little and way, way, way too late.
 
Obstruction is a fine political tool. Obama is a dangerous tyrant. Everything he wants must be obstructed.


Republicans are a minority party. It is their job to obstruct the majority tyranny. Let us hope they do their jobs very well.

They are well on their way to permanent status as a minority party and their obstruction is a big reason. Since when is the people's will tyranny?
 
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