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US To Use Drones In Chris Dorner Manhunt

Ikari said:
I don't see, without constant monitoring, how this would really impact our crimes rate. There are a multitude of socioeconomic factors which go into crime stats that are not addressed through the use of drone planes.
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Nighttime survellience would definitely help. I never said the drones would stop crime, but I do think it would decrease crime (obviously I can't give a percentage of how much) and help law enforcment prosecute criminals that operate on the street.

And of course I'm talking about the survellience ONLY drones and not military weapon equiped. Also not going to do the slippery slope argument.
 
Risky Thicket said:
Yeah, except that soon enough they'll be shooting at us from helicopters.
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Again, I'm not going to do the slippery slope argument. You can say that for just about anything. You can say "Oh we can't have a military because eventually it will be used against us, oh no!!!".
 
TheNextEra said:
Nighttime survellience would definitely help. I never said the drones would stop crime, but I do think it would decrease crime (obviously I can't give a percentage of how much) and help law enforcment prosecute criminals that operate on the street.

And of course I'm talking about the survellience ONLY drones and not military weapon equiped. Also not going to do the slippery slope argument.
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I think the only direct affect it will have is to increase the efficiency through which we jail our population. Which stands as the highest percentage per capita than any other country.
 
Ikari said:
I think the only direct affect it will have is to increase the efficiency through which we jail our population. Which stands as the highest percentage per capita than any other country.
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The jail issue is an entirely different issue. We should stop jailing people for stupid **** like drug posession and legalize it. Either that or build more jails.

Either way, much like survellience cameras in stores have helped in catching shoplifters, a drone will help law enforcement catch and prosecute criminals.

The alternative is to let criminals keep doing what they are doing and encourage more because they is no watching the streets.
 
TheNextEra said:
The jail issue is an entirely different issue. We should stop jailing people for stupid **** like drug posession and legalize it. Either that or build more jails.

Either way, much like survellience cameras in stores have helped in catching shoplifters, a drone will help law enforcement catch and prosecute criminals.

The alternative is to let criminals keep doing what they are doing and encourage more because they is no watching the streets.
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So government keeps an ever watchful and constant eye on us or we're all in danger because nothing will keep the crime rate down?
 
ric27 said:
The drone/drones won't be armed.

They'll just zero in to locate him plus drones are a lot more cost effective......
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Its the continuing merger of local law enforcement and military that leaves me unsettled.
 
TheNextEra said:
I can understand how some see it as a slippery slope with "big brother" getting bigger, but I also see the slippery slope of crime rates increasing without them as well.
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We need a balance. How much "safety" is required before it is enough? The State will always push for more. It is up to the People to be put a check on that.
 
Ikari said:
So government keeps an ever watchful and constant eye on us or we're all in danger because nothing will keep the crime rate down?
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Isn't that what law enforcment does now on the ground with patrols? Drones just cover the sky doing the same thing. Unless of course you are against police officers patrolling as well. If so, there really isn't anything more to discuss as we just have differeing opinions.
 
Geoist said:
We need a balance. How much "safety" is required before it is enough? The State will always push for more. It is up to the People to be put a check on that.
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And I think the check on that is to not allow militarized weapons. However, using drones (if turned over to police departments with no weapons on it) is an ok thing for me. I look at it much like police officers patrolling on the ground, these will the sky.
 
TheNextEra said:
Isn't that what law enforcment does now on the ground with patrols? Drones just cover the sky doing the same thing. Unless of course you are against police officers patrolling as well. If so, there really isn't anything more to discuss as we just have differeing opinions.
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I will grant police officers the use of their biological sensory equipment, such as touch, taste, hearing, sight, and smell. Any electronic or mechanical augmentations to that will require warrant.
 
Ikari said:
I will grant police officers the use of their biological sensory equipment, such as touch, taste, hearing, sight, and smell. Any electronic or mechanical augmentations to that will require warrant.
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What do you think that computer does when they run a plate or a driver's license? They also use lights, radios, and computers not just biological.
 
TheNextEra said:
What do you think that computer does when they run a plate or a driver's license? They also use lights, radios, and computers not just biological.
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Now you're talking my style. The massive amount of databasing the government does certainly MUST be limited. Does it mean that they cannot run a plate? No. Does it mean they can run any plate at any time? No. If they witness behavior counter to the rules of the road or that which is endangering others, that is sufficient to begin investigation such as running plates. There are a lot of various scenarios which go along with this. Lights I'll give them for the public safety concern; but they need to be careful. And I think they can be granted use of some radio tech. Though not unlimited.
 
Ikari said:
Now you're talking my style. The massive amount of databasing the government does certainly MUST be limited. Does it mean that they cannot run a plate? No. Does it mean they can run any plate at any time? No. If they witness behavior counter to the rules of the road or that which is endangering others, that is sufficient to begin investigation such as running plates. There are a lot of various scenarios which go along with this. Lights I'll give them for the public safety concern; but they need to be careful. And I think they can be granted use of some radio tech. Though not unlimited.
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My understanding of drones is that they are doing the same thing. They are observing and an operator would have to focus in on details if they see something suspicious. The benefit is the drones can see far more and can observe a bigger area. As long as they follow the same rules as police officers do in regards to observing and running plates, people, etc. I see no problem with it. Again, these are when the units are turned over to police departments they would have to follow the same rules for oversight.
 
TheNextEra said:
My understanding of drones is that they are doing the same thing. They are observing and an operator would have to focus in on details if they see something suspicious. The benefit is the drones can see far more and can observe a bigger area. As long as they follow the same rules as police officers do in regards to observing and running plates, people, etc. I see no problem with it. Again, these are when the units are turned over to police departments they would have to follow the same rules for oversight.
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Yes, but there's the rub. Do the police follow the rules even now? No. They assume total control of tech and then retroactively reduce use only after they're taken to court. In the meanwhile, they're essentially free to do as they want. They have helicopters, they have all sorts of tech now, they have enough. Drones will do nothing other than open up another avenue for abuse.
 
Ikari said:
Yes, but there's the rub. Do the police follow the rules even now? No. They assume total control of tech and then retroactively reduce use only after they're taken to court. In the meanwhile, they're essentially free to do as they want. They have helicopters, they have all sorts of tech now, they have enough. Drones will do nothing other than open up another avenue for abuse.
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That's a slippery slope IMO. Do some people in the military break the laws? Yes. Does that mean we shouldn't improve the military because they might abuse something? No

Bad apples will happen and when abuses happen, they should put the hammer down. However, in the way I am describing drone use it is not much different that how the ground patrol officers do.
 
TheNextEra said:
That's a slippery slope IMO. Do some people in the military break the laws? Yes. Does that mean we shouldn't improve the military because they might abuse something? No
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Does that mean they must be constrained, watched, regulated? Yes. And I think they're going to have to show some marked and statistically resolved impact of new tech before they can assume it. With the military drone planes make a lot of sense for operations innate to military practices. With what the police currently have at their command, it makes little sense for operations innate to police practices.

TheNextEra said:
Bad apples will happen and when abuses happen, they should put the hammer down. However, in the way I am describing drone use it is not much different that how the ground patrol officers do.
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Then the ground patrol officer is sufficient.
 
TheNextEra said:
No problem, thank you for your concession! :2wave:
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Oh, there was no concession made. I just know that you and I are of differing opinion. So, there's not much else to discuss.
 
Ikari said:
With what the police currently have at their command, it makes little sense for operations innate to police practices.
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That is your opinion, however, that's like saying why do police need helicopters. Helicopters have proven invaluable to police especially when chasing down a subject that has eluded the ground units. Sorry, but IMO you are just plain wrong here.


Ikari said:
Then the ground patrol officer is sufficient.
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Again, wrong. Helicopters have proven invaluable. Drones are cheaper and can help police officers far better.

I don't think we are ever going to see eye to eye on this issue, but the as the way the drones will be used, they will be used the same as helicopters with better results.
 
TheNextEra said:
the as the way the drones will be used, they will be used the same as helicopters with better results.
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For the State certainly. Not so much for the People.
 
TheNextEra said:
Catching criminals doesn't help the people?
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This will not significantly impact the crime rate, so the People get little to no positive benefit. Plenty of negative "benefit" though.
 
Ikari said:
This will not significantly impact the crime rate, so the People get little to no positive benefit. Plenty of negative "benefit" though.
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You have a crystal ball to determine that? Maybe in your opinion, but the use of helicopters HAS helped increase the rate of capture of criminals. Why wouldn't drones with a much larger range and ability to see not do the same?
 
TheNextEra said:
You have a crystal ball to determine that? Maybe in your opinion, but the use of helicopters HAS helped increase the rate of capture of criminals. Why wouldn't drones with a much larger range and ability to see not do the same?
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Why would it be statistically resolvable increase over current methods? You have no data to back your point. Just the old theist argument "well you can't show that god doesn't exist" nonsense. All this is will be a tool for our continued surveillance and continued reduction to our privacy rights.
 
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