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Arizona Republicans Propose Bill That Would Not Allow Atheists to Graduate

Viktyr Gehrig said:
Arizona Republicans Propose Bill That Would Not Allow Atheists To Graduate High School



Awful damn hard to be a pagan and a conservative in this country when our so-called "conservative party" apparently hates you.
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Here's where I'm confused about it. Not all High School graduates are US Citizens. I'm not just talking illegals, I mean exchange students, or just recent legal immigrants whose parents plan on going back when their visas expire.

Should we require citizens of other countries, who may be here legally, to swear to support OUR Constitution instead of their own?
 
Excon said:
Why should we be forced by the Government to do anything? That fact is that we are all the time.
Should the Government just excuse anybody from not doing what they don't like?


Don't like it, fight it before it before it gets considered.
Don't like it, fight it in Court.
Don't like it, don't say G_d. Unless you purposely made it obvious, I doubt anybody would make an issue out of it.
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Number one reason why I should not be required to do it, my constitutional rights. Also you're a neocon.
 
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iliveonramen said:
Well the use of God is the belief of one supreme being. Would you have a
problem with an oath "So help me Gods?". I mean...that would be sacrilegious since the chief tenant in Judeo-Christian related religions is the belief in one supreme being.
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Also, the followers of all religions should decide when to make an oath to God. If the government starts to require we do it, then eventually making promises and paths to God will become
meaningless
 
Wiseone said:
In all other cases where "So help me God" comes at the end of an oath, it is optional. Precedence runs against this idea, also I'd argue this falls under the same ruling about the Pledge of Allegiance that doesn't make it mandatory in schools.
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We've moved, as a nation, away from religious oaths anyhow. I can only speak for how it is here, but there was a time when they hauled out the Bible to make oaths on in court. Now, I don't think you can even ask for a Bible. You put up your hand, you swear to tell the truth, you sit down. No religion whatsoever anywhere to be seen. That's how it ought to be.
 
SheWolf said:
Number one reason why I should not be required to do it, my constitutional rights.
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You realize that a judge can find what ever reason they desire to decide an issue the way they choose.

SheWolf said:
Also you're a neocon.
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No! That says Excon, not neocon. :mrgreen:
 
Arizona Republicans Propose Bill That Would Not Allow Christians to Graduate
I, _______, do solemnly swear that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic, that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge these duties; So help me God.
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Matthew 5;33-37:
33 “Again, you have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘Do not break your oath, but fulfill to the Lord the vows you have made.’ 34 But I tell you, do not swear an oath at all: either by heaven, for it is God’s throne; 35 or by the earth, for it is his footstool; or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the Great King. 36 And do not swear by your head, for you cannot make even one hair white or black. 37 All you need to say is simply ‘Yes’ or ‘No’; anything beyond this comes from the evil one.

The oath this is coming from already has built-in alternative words. When I enlisted I was asked if I had a a problem using the word "swear" or "God". Those who object to "swear" are given a synonym in it's place. Those who object to "God" complete the oath at "duties" and stop.

Viktyr Gehrig said:
Awful damn hard to be a pagan and a conservative in this country when our so-called "conservative [Republican] party" apparently hates you.
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1. There is no Conservative Party in power. The parties are Democrat and Republican.
2. Conservatives =/= Republican.
3. Republican =/= Conservative.
4. Conservatives left the GOP 6 years ago.
 
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Viktyr Gehrig said:
Your parenthetical is not appreciated-- as I noted, I am not atheist but pagan, an Ásatrúar, and I am devoutly religious. And yes, my faith absolutely does prohibit me from saying "So help me God" or swearing any other oath on the Judeochristian deity along with any other non-Germanic deity.
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"So help me god" is generic, not Judeochristian. "God" means whatever you want it to mean, any kind of higher power at all, not even necessarily a deity. We have a devout Pagan in my platoon, when he took the oath he said "so help me god", he took it to mean one of his gods. It's not a big deal.

Anyway, with all of these oaths you have the option to not say "swear" or "so help me god", so no more QQ plz.
 
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Viktyr Gehrig said:
No, but my deities have names and they are not properly addressed by "God".
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[video=youtube;sQgd6MccwZc]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=sQgd6MccwZc[/video]
 
Viktyr Gehrig said:
"God" is a capitalized proper noun and any person of Judeochristian faith will be happy to tell you refers only to their god. I am as excluded as any atheist.
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You live in WY. You're already excluded from anything AZ does.
 
We have a winner!
soccerboy22 said:
Whether or not it was religious, I would refuse to say it because I am graduating from high school. I am not taking a public oath for office.
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An oath should never be required to complete graduation. We don't even require students to say the Pledge of Allegiance.
 
Jerry said:
"So help me god" is generic, not Judeochristian. "God" means whatever you want it to mean, any kind of higher power at all, not even necessarily a deity. We have a devout Pagan in my platoon, when he took the oath he said "so help me god", he took it to mean one of his gods. It's not a big deal.

Anyway, with all of these oaths you have the option to not say "swear" or "so help me god", so no more QQ plz.
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No, if they had phrased it "so help me god", you'd be right. However, they specifically phrased it "so help me God", which is a proper name referring to a specific deity. Just because the Christians were so unoriginal to use the generic word "god" to refer to their deity doesn't change the rules of language.
 
Cephus said:
No, if they had phrased it "so help me god", you'd be right. However, they specifically phrased it "so help me God", which is a proper name referring to a specific deity. Just because the Christians were so unoriginal to use the generic word "god" to refer to their deity doesn't change the rules of language.
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The entire oath is what you should be objecting to. It's graduation, not a political office or official station.

Even if we agreed that it's remotely appropriate to state an oath for graduation, the word "swear" can be exchanged for a synonym, and the line "so help me God" can be left out entirely.

There's nothing to see here besides OP getting his panties in a bunch over nothing.
 
Jerry said:
The entire oath is what you should be objecting to. It's graduation, not a political office or official station.

Even if we agreed that it's remotely appropriate to state an oath for graduation, the word "swear" can be exchanged for a synonym, and the line "so help me God" can be left out entirely.

There's nothing to see here besides OP getting his panties in a bunch over nothing.
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As religious tyranny goes this is pretty much as small potatoes as it gets. That being said, it's extremely easy to be dismissive of somebody else's inconvenience (mild as this example may be), when that inconvenience is set up to your advantage. It's why the guy can be utterly baffled as to why the woman would get so ticked off over the toilet seat being left up: it's no big deal because it's always been fine with him. If "God" were replaced with "Allah," would you take more notice?
 
Cardinal said:
As religious tyranny goes this is pretty much as small potatoes as it gets. That being said, it's extremely easy to be dismissive of somebody else's inconvenience (mild as this example may be), when that inconvenience is set up to your advantage. It's why the guy can be utterly baffled as to why the woman would get so ticked off over the toilet seat being left up: it's no big deal because it's always been fine with him. If "God" were replaced with "Allah," would you take more notice?
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I object to the entire oath.

That you find it acceptable to require a religiously neutral oath to graduate is disgusting. There should be no oath at all.
 
Jerry said:
I object to the entire oath.

That you find it acceptable to require a religiously neutral oath to graduate is disgusting. There should be no oath at all.
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They're both problems. There shouldn't be an oath, and there shouldn't be "God" in the oath besides. The difference lies in which of the two we see as the greater offense, and that you see the mention of God as the lesser one highlights what I was saying. You're Christian, so the mention of God is positive at best and neutral at worst, an attitude that is easy to take when your demographic is in the cultural majority.
 
Cardinal said:
They're both problems. There shouldn't be an oath, and there shouldn't be "God" in the oath besides. The difference lies in which of the two we see as the greater offense, and that you see the mention of God as the lesser one highlights what I was saying. You're Christian, so the mention of God is positive at best and neutral at worst, an attitude that is easy to take when your demographic is in the cultural majority.
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There are 3 offences, not 2:
1. An oath to graduate school should not exist at all.
2. That aside, the oath discriminates against Christians by including "swear".
3. The oath also discriminates against non-Christians by requiring "so help me God".

Every other place we see this oath, be it military enlistment or elected to public office, you can elect to conclude your oath with "duties", leaving out "so help me God" entirely. You can replace "swear" with a synonym. Every time these options are not allowed, the oath is struck down. If these options are allowed, then no one will be discriminated against, and we are left with #1: an oath to graduate from school should not exist.

That is how I triashed the offences.
 
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Jerry said:
The entire oath is what you should be objecting to. It's graduation, not a political office or official station.

Even if we agreed that it's remotely appropriate to state an oath for graduation, the word "swear" can be exchanged for a synonym, and the line "so help me God" can be left out entirely.

There's nothing to see here besides OP getting his panties in a bunch over nothing.
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Oh, I do object to the whole thing, there's no point to forcing anyone to stand up and pledge an oath in order to get something, including the Pledge of Allegiance. I was simply responding to your incorrect assessment of the word, I was not supporting the oath in any way, shape or form.
 
Cephus said:
Oh, I do object to the whole thing, there's no point to forcing anyone to stand up and pledge an oath in order to get something, including the Pledge of Allegiance. I was simply responding to your incorrect assessment of the word, I was not supporting the oath in any way, shape or form.
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If I were a student, I would get on board with a class action lawsuit and notify the State and my school that I refuse to take the oath and intend to sue if I am denied graduation and/or admittance into the ceremony.
 
Jerry said:
If I were a student, I would get on board with a class action lawsuit and notify the State and my school that I refuse to take the oath and intend to sue if I am denied graduation and/or admittance into the ceremony.
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The fact is, they can't deny graduation regardless, it's based on scholarly performance, not on rote recitation. If you perform to the standards dictated, if you pass the high school exit exam, you graduate and there isn't a damn thing anyone can do about it. I can't wait until the first person who they try this on hits them with a budget-busting lawsuit and the people of Arizona realize it isn't such a good idea.
 
Cole said:
The substance of the bill seems to be trying for a statement of patriotism from graduating students.
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Surprised it only took 2 pages for someone to figure it out. But to make it absolutely clear, this proposed bill is nothing more than an attempt by Conservative Republicans in AZ to ensure that those students who are illegal aliens don't walk away with a free or low-cost public education after completing course requirements to graduate high school. But it's a very wrong-headed way to go about doing it. These state politicians in effect seem to be giving a green light to U.S. citizenship by upholding this measure. It's wrongheaded because it's not the responsibility of the state to issue such an oath. That's a federalist position! Thus, should this measure pass it can (and likely will) be viewed as obvious over-reach by the state (AZ).

The "so help me God" at the end equates to an "i swear to the above". Term gets used a lot in government and military. Again, your thread title and claims simply ring as partisan blather.....
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But of course it is. You've already stated the reason why that is..."patriotism from graduating students (who happen to be illegal aliens or children born to illegal immigrant parents)".
 
Excon said:
So you are saying that your deity, or one of them, isn't a god?
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I might be mistaken but some pagans have a definition of god that it completely different from what Christian think of, if I'm not mistaken. According to what I've been told, a god in paganism is a spirit entity the pagan creates in order to serve the pagan, which is almost the opposite of the Christian faith.
 
I don't see how this would prevent atheists from graduating.

What I think is wrong with it is that it prevents a student essentially swearing away their right to free speech and believe that the Constitution should be struck down or not followed. I don't think anyone should be forced to make an oath in order to graduate.
 
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