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Arizona Republicans Propose Bill That Would Not Allow Atheists to Graduate

LowDown said:
So, what is the problem with atheists saying the oath? Will their tongues burst into fire?

Seriously, it's just a meaningless bit of boilerplate to an atheist. So, what's the problem?

This bridling over such things really makes it look like some atheists are into magical thinking. It looks more and more like it's their religion we are talking about.
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What is the reason in even HAVING this oath as a REQUIREMENT to graduate? Seriously, are conservatives that bloated in their egos that they actually need to have graduates recite an oathe to appease them?
 
Viktyr Gehrig said:
Your parenthetical is not appreciated-- as I noted, I am not atheist but pagan, an Ásatrúar, and I am devoutly religious. And yes, my faith absolutely does prohibit me from saying "So help me God" or swearing any other oath on the Judeochristian deity along with any other non-Germanic deity.
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Aw, that's so cute. You found a religion that supports your ideals. Protip buddy, there is no such thing as your own personal "Jesus" regardless of what you call him/ her/ it/ them. People don't become Christians only after they have adjusted their lives to God. It's a process and there is no perfection. Finding something custom made for your feelings is not religion, it's self delusion. But on a more serious note when you are sworn in in court you end your oath with "So help me God". It is not a statement of faith, it is a legal agreement that uses an old phrase that people understand the meaning of. And the statement you posted does not swear an allegiance to God but the Constitution. Not such a bad thing considering where we live and what has happened to it recently. Just to be clear back when I was so much more enlightened and refined I was an atheist for 20 years. I felt all kinds of superior until I figured out I was wrong. ;)

That being said this looks like a waste of time and resources to me. Can't think of any good reason to add this to a graduation requirement. It is clear that we have plenty of people in this country who are not interested in the Constitution. Not supporting it has nothing to do with completion of a high school education. After all, isn't the purpose of educating our kids to prepare them for the world ahead of them, hopefully with the ability to think for themselves?
 
LowDown said:
You mean about crossing my fingers? Ok, I'd cross my fingers, and I'd be in a snit about it.
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Some people don't want to be forced to lie. Sorry if this confuses you.
 
As Rome burns, you have politicians making rules and squabbling over things that don't mean **** to a tree.
 
tech30528 said:
Aw, that's so cute. You found a religion that supports your ideals. Protip buddy, there is no such thing as your own personal "Jesus" regardless of what you call him/ her/ it/ them. People don't become Christians only after they have adjusted their lives to God. It's a process and there is no perfection. Finding something custom made for your feelings is not religion, it's self delusion.
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Awfully arrogant of you, don't you think? Must be a good thing that pride isn't one of the cardinal sins against your faith.

Oh, wait.
 
Viktyr Gehrig said:
Your parenthetical is not appreciated-- as I noted, I am not atheist but pagan, an Ásatrúar, and I am devoutly religious. And yes, my faith absolutely does prohibit me from saying "So help me God" or swearing any other oath on the Judeochristian deity along with any other non-Germanic deity.
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I don't like the oath and we all know this would NOT pass a federal court challenge.

BUT it does not say "Judeochristian" or "non-Germanic deity." It just says "God."
 
Excon said:
Well... Yes it does matter, as it is all inclusive to any belief in a higher power.
And it isn't a pledge to G_d, or a god either, but to "support and defend the Constitution".
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Well i see it as an oath and I should maintain the right to not say it. Why should I be forced by the government to say it?
 
It is not just an offense to other religions such as "Jehovahs Witnesses" who do not say "God," to Muslims who say "Alah" etc. However, there also are non-judeochristian religions that do use "God."

In short, for it's wording it is not specifically "Judeochristian" and it is not just offensive to atheists.

What is so unfortunate is that if it passed, some student will have to be put all over the media as the test-student for a federal court challenge.
 
SheWolf said:
Well i see it as an oath and I should maintain the right to not say it. Why should I be forced by the government to say it?
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Why should we be forced by the Government to do anything? That fact is that we are all the time.
Should the Government just excuse anybody from not doing what they don't like?


Don't like it, fight it before it before it gets considered.
Don't like it, fight it in Court.
Don't like it, don't say G_d. Unless you purposely made it obvious, I doubt anybody would make an issue out of it.
 
Excon said:
So you are saying that your deity, or one of them, isn't a god?
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Well the use of God is the belief of one supreme being. Would you have a problem with an oath "So help me Gods?". I mean...that would be sacrilegious since the chief tenant in Judeo-Christian related religions is the belief in one supreme being.
 
Viktyr Gehrig said:
"God" is a capitalized proper noun and any person of Judeochristian faith will be happy to tell you refers only to their god. I am as excluded as any atheist.
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Viktyr- I ask only because I am ignorant of such things. Is it against your religious beliefs to say your gods name during this pledge, or say Gods if there are more than one? I am not about stomping on peoples religious beliefs and believe there is a solution to your concern. Personally I too think this is a bit over the top. I would hope all American citizens would try to uphold our Constitution without needing to take a pledge. I completely understand Military, Law Enforcement, Politicians, Judges, Etc taking it but students are another thing. Need to think on this some more
 
iliveonramen said:
Well the use of God is the belief of one supreme being. Would you have a problem with an oath "So help me Gods?". I mean...that would be sacrilegious since the chief tenant in Judeo-Christian related religions is the belief in one supreme being.
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I would have no problem with it if it stated "So help me Excon."
But would prefer that it said something to the effect that the swearing was being done on the person's own integrity.
 
Excon said:
Well... Yes it does matter, as it is all inclusive to any belief in a higher power.
And it isn't a pledge to G_d, or a god either, but to "support and defend the Constitution".
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Even if there were no mention of god at all, it'd still be an unconstitutional form of compelled speech. Even if there were no mention of supporting or defending the constitution, it'd be an unconstitutional violation of both the free expression and establishment clauses of the first amendment by requiring a) obiesance to a deity (of some sort) and b) by putting governmental imprimatur on belief, rather than absence of belief.
 
Excon said:
But would prefer that it said something to the effect that the swearing was being done on the person's own integrity.
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The problem with "So help me God" specifically as a reference to one's integrity is that many non-Judeochristians who swear an oath that contains that term cannot do so while maintaining their integrity.

Think of it this way, I was raised Catholic and attend many Catholic ceremonies such as marriages and funerals for friends and family members. It is my integrity that prevents me from eating the Eucharist during these ceremonies. It would be no skin off of my nose to eat a piece of stale, ****ty bread, but because other people truly believe that such an act is truly a communion with Christ, rather than sharing some crappy bread, I do not feel that I can partake in that particular ritual honorably. So my integrity prevents me from doing so.

I get **** for it from friends and family all the time, who think I am making some sort of stand against religion by doing so, but in truth I do it out of respect for the gravity that others place upon such rituals despite my own belief that they are pointless and silly.
 
Tucker Case said:
The problem with "So help me God" specifically as a reference to one's integrity is that many non-Judeochristians who swear an oath that contains that term cannot do so while maintaining their integrity.

Think of it this way, I was raised Catholic and attend many Catholic ceremonies such as marriages and funerals for friends and family members. It is my integrity that prevents me from eating the Eucharist during these ceremonies. It would be no skin off of my nose to eat a piece of stale, ****ty bread, but because other people truly believe that such an act is truly a communion with Christ, rather than sharing some crappy bread, I do not feel that I can partake in that particular ritual honorably. So my integrity prevents me from doing so.

I get **** for it from friends and family all the time, who think I am making some sort of stand against religion by doing so, but in truth I do it out of respect for the gravity that others place upon such rituals despite my own belief that they are pointless and silly.
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I think that's what he's saying. That the oath doesn't need to be swore under God but that the oath should be a promise based on an individuals integrity.
 
Dirt Racer said:
Viktyr- I ask only because I am ignorant of such things. Is it against your religious beliefs to say your gods name during this pledge, or say Gods if there are more than one?
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No, it would not be against my beliefs to do so. But the proposed bill does not appear to allow for such a solution.
 
iliveonramen said:
I think that's what he's saying. That the oath doesn't need to be swore under God but that the oath should be a promise based on an individuals integrity.
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The swearing of an oath itself does that without any additional language needed.
 
Tucker Case said:
The swearing of an oath itself does that without any additional language needed.
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No I agree. Asking an atheist to swear under God is just dumb period. From the idea of rights to the idea that supposedly the oath holds weight for a person that is swearing to a God they don't believe in? It's just dumb all around but I agree. Why not just do "I solemnly swear blah blah"
 
Viktyr, question for you (this is a bit off-topic, but you said what your religion was, and I think it's what I think it is) anyhow, I'm performing selections from Wagner's Ring cycle, which through 4 operas (16 hours) tells the stories of Odin, the Valkryes, Valhalla ect....but really my question to you is, how accurately does Wagner's ring cycle represent the poems of the elder edda?
 
iliveonramen said:
Asking an atheist to swear under God is just dumb period.
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True, but while it's dumb to ask atheists to do it, it's downright immoral to ask someone like Vik to do it, because he would be forced to actively violate his faith in order to swear such an oath.
 
Johnson said:
Viktyr, question for you (this is a bit off-topic, but you said what your religion was, and I think it's what I think it is) anyhow, I'm performing selections from Wagner's Ring cycle, which through 4 operas (16 hours) tells the stories of Odin, the Valkryes, Valhalla ect....but really my question to you is, how accurately does Wagner's ring cycle represent the poems of the elder edda?
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I don't know. Aside from Ride of the Valkyries, I am only passingly familiar with Wagner.
 
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