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New Health Rankings: Of 17 Nations, U.S. Is Dead Last

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RabidAlpaca said:
Germany is a multipayer system, so even more things that set it apart.

Obamacare didn't actually do anything to lower the costs of healthcare for the average citizen.

In fact, most people's health care costs have risen. There's good reason why not too many big pharma and medical lobbies fought it, it's absolutely great for their business to take massive taxpayer funding.
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Exactly, all it did was to ensure that every American had health insurance, which was an improvement over the old system. Health care costs continue to rise as they were before. And that will continue until we go to some type of universal health care. And I'm not opposed to the multi-payer system that Germany has. Or the system in Australia where everyone gets basic medical care, and then if you want extra, you pay for extra.
 
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head of joaquin said:
We have the most expensive system in the advanced world, with some of the worst health outcomes. That's because our for profit pay for service model is totally and completely maladapted for health care -- for well known reasons, the most obvious being lack of price elasticity.

It's time for single payer. End of story. Our rationing of health care by income has failed.
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Yeah, single payer so guys like you can get healthcare for free.
 
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American said:
Yeah, single payer so guys like you can get healthcare for free.
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Yep. Not to mention that when it comes to availability of technology, new procedures, overall availability to procedures beyond basic care, etc. We are the only country that actually qualifies as "advanced world" in the field of healthcare.
 
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American said:
Yeah, single payer so guys like you can get healthcare for free.
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If you would take the time to learn about single payer plans you would know they are not free, but they do reduce the costs of health care.
 
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PirateMk1 said:
The road to hell is paved with the victoms of those with good intentions.
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Don't you have any more substabcial response to my post which was about the principles underlying many ventures in this world, including charities to fight heart decreases and insurance policies ... If you think these ventures are only "good intentions", I bet you already live in hell ...
 
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stonewall50 said:
Maybe the United States is a special when it comes to health care? Maybe we can't be compared to Germany because Germany has far fewer people, and is much smaller geographically, and even less diverse than we are? I think that is my primary bug with health care. I see a lot of talk about how we should be like Europe, and yet no consideration for the fact that we are nowhere near comparable to European nations in terms of complexity. I am sure that that each of their own nations have their own individual health care problems, but they are smaller in scale and easier to handle (well "easier"...but still complex and beyond my mind in terms of handling).
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Because German people are differently sick than Americans? Is it because they speak German or what? So a German cancer is different than an American cancer? Or are you saying that a smaller population means automatically more doctors, shorter wating times etc.
 
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Sucre said:
Because German people are differently sick than Americans? Is it because they speak German or what? So a German cancer is different than an American cancer? Or are you saying that a smaller population means automatically more doctors, shorter wating times etc.
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Actually, read some of the CDC pages. There is a fairly large difference between medical problems with different races/ethnicities. Cancer rates, heart disease rates, etc. Only people with African heritage get sickle cell, only people with European noble heritage get Hemophilia. America is multi-heritage/genetic, Germany is mostly mono-heritage.
 
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Catawba said:
If you would take the time to learn about single payer plans you would know they are not free, but they do reduce the costs of health care.
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And if you learned more about them, you would learn that compared to what is available here in America, they aren't worth crap.
 
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Cardinal Fang said:
We have the highest health care costs in the world because we have a wasteful profit-driven, fee-for-service health care system. The factors you try to hide behind actually exist everywhere. Differences are at the margin. The US is 34th in per capita tobacco consumption by the way. The task of every health care system is to care for the health of the population. If a population is overweight, smokes too much, or consumes a lot of sugar, the health care system needs to deal with those issues. It is no different from a population that drinks beer or wine by the liter, makes everything out of potatoes, or lives in a frigid climate.
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You make the presumtion that we have a system like Germany Briton or France or Canada have a health care system. We dont at least not in the way a system is typically thought. Its more of a ad hoch collection of independent operations and business collectives. I would have thought as an economics guru you would have picked up on that quicker.
 
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Sucre said:
Don't you have any more substabcial response to my post which was about the principles underlying many ventures in this world, including charities to fight heart decreases and insurance policies ... If you think these ventures are only "good intentions", I bet you already live in hell ...
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Your veiw of the world are completely different. Your from Europe. I am an American. Thats two completely different ways of viewing it. Your government is resposible for your well being. Nobody but myself is responsible for mine. You are a subject of your government, I am soveriegn.

Society is based on the concept contract or mutual benifit. Its a quid pro quo relationship. The benifits must outweigh the downfalls or it is useless. It is not about caring about others.

Side note the health care "system" in the US is not like your or pretty much anybody elses in the world. Its more of a ad hoch collection indiviaduals and businesses.
 
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PirateMk1 said:
Your veiw of the world are completely different. Your from Europe. I am an American. Thats two completely different ways of viewing it. Your government is resposible for your well being. Nobody but myself is responsible for mine. You are a subject of your government, I am soveriegn. .
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The fantasies of conservatives are getting more and more ornate.
 
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DVSentinel said:
And if you learned more about them, you would learn that compared to what is available here in America, they aren't worth crap.
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That is why none of the rest of the industrialized world wants to go back to our type of system?
 
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PirateMk1 said:
Your veiw of the world are completely different. Your from Europe. I am an American. Thats two completely different ways of viewing it. Your government is resposible for your well being. Nobody but myself is responsible for mine. You are a subject of your government, I am soveriegn.

Society is based on the concept contract or mutual benifit. Its a quid pro quo relationship. The benifits must outweigh the downfalls or it is useless. It is not about caring about others.

Side note the health care "system" in the US is not like your or pretty much anybody elses in the world. Its more of a ad hoch collection indiviaduals and businesses.
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Err ... No, in fact, I feel I am completely responsible for my own well-being, thank you. I don't think my government is responsible for me ... My government is responsible for all kind of stuff but not for me.

Besides being responsible for myself, I am also smart enough to want to pay the least possible for the highest possible well-being return. Get the highest return on any investment. This means that in some cases pooling resources with others will allow to get the highest return for myself. This is the case of health care for two reasons:
1 - Risk assessment (the probability to become ill is quite high in a life time and increases with aging)
2 -The high costs potentially associated with the realization of this risk.

This pays out. Pooling resources collectively to pay for health care pays out. International comparsions are all quite unequivocal: these "pretty much anybody elses in the world" systems you refer to use for international comparaisons all fair better than the US in terms of investment (cost) and in terms of return of investment (degree of health).

I don't think I need to post a link to demonstrate this well-known fact.;)

To finish with, society may not be based on "caring for" but needs "caring for" and "feeling concern" to go forward.
 
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Sucre said:
Err ... No, in fact, I feel I am completely responsible for my own well-being, thank you. I don't think my government is responsible for me ... My government is responsible for all kind of stuff but not for me.

Besides being responsible for myself, I am also smart enough to want to pay the least possible for the highest possible well-being return. Get the highest return on any investment. This means that in some cases pooling resources with others will allow to get the highest return for myself. This is the case of health care for two reasons:
1 - Risk assessment (the probability to become ill is quite high in a life time and increases with aging)
2 -The high costs potentially associated with the realization of this risk.

This pays out. Pooling resources collectively to pay for health care pays out. International comparsions are all quite unequivocal: these "pretty much anybody elses in the world" systems you refer to use for international comparaisons all fair better than the US in terms of investment (cost) and in terms of return of investment (degree of health).

I don't think I need to post a link to demonstrate this well-known fact.;)

To finish with, society may not be based on "caring for" but needs "caring for" and "feeling concern" to go forward.
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So, you claim to be responsible for yourself and thus have chosen to pool your resources. But that only works if everyone chooses the same along with you. Those who would not choose as you have are denied that personal responsibility.
 
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DVSentinel said:
Actually, read some of the CDC pages. There is a fairly large difference between medical problems with different races/ethnicities. Cancer rates, heart disease rates, etc. Only people with African heritage get sickle cell, only people with European noble heritage get Hemophilia. America is multi-heritage/genetic, Germany is mostly mono-heritage.
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I am not sure whether I should laugh at such a naive response or cry ... :doh

Don't you see that people of African heritage, as you label it, are also those who have the less access to health care in the USA? Wouldn't you think that their reduced access to health care is the cause of their higher decease rates rather than ... their genes? In fact, your example shows exactly this: all race/ethnicities don't get equal access to care. If they did, it wouldn't so much matter with what kind of illness they are being cured for ... African people would get cured for their sickle cells and European people for their hemopholia ...

Besides, contrary to what wou think, Germany too has a mixed population, or France, or the Netherlands ...
 
Re: We're Number......LAST

DVSentinel said:
And if you learned more about them, you would learn that compared to what is available here in America, they aren't worth crap.
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The WHO would disagree with that, but then, what do they know? How can we take their word over that of someone posting anonymously posting on an internet forum?
 
Re: We're Number......LAST

clownboy said:
So, you claim to be responsible for yourself and thus have chosen to pool your resources. But that only works if everyone chooses the same along with you. Those who would not choose as you have are denied that personal responsibility.
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Well, as I said before, you can always chose to live in a cave all by yourself. I don't think anybody can take that right away from you ... There seems to be a lot of smart people who, however, chose to live in a society with other people and pool resources in order to get a higher benefit for themselves and their families. They get better services too, which allows them to go on their private business without worrying. These people live longer and healthier than cave people.
 
Re: We're Number......LAST

Sucre said:
Well, as I said before, you can always chose to live in a cave all by yourself. I don't think anybody can take that right away from you ... There seems to be a lot of smart people who, however, chose to live in a society with other people and pool resources in order to get a higher benefit for themselves and their families. They get better services too, which allows them to go on their private business without worrying. These people live longer and healthier than cave people.
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No, you can't. Not without interference from the well-meaning like yourself who really insist you jump in the pool with them. But hey, my post was to answer your bit about being allowed to be responsible for yourself under your system of government.
 
Re: We're Number......LAST

clownboy said:
No, you can't. Not without interference from the well-meaning like yourself who really insist you jump in the pool with them. But hey, my post was to answer your bit about being allowed to be responsible for yourself under your system of government.
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So you're not free? I think you should take responsibility for your freedom.
If you want not to jump in a pool that several like myself have decided to set up, there are a couple of possibilities. If you want no interference AT ALL, just go. As I said, nobody can prevent you from going and living in a cave... If you want to stay within a set group of people, let say because you have a family, you can still opt for a "I pay all my health care by myself" - simply don't take any salaried position and do not contract any private health insurance ... There is always a way not to participate in society.
 
Re: We're Number......LAST

Dragonfly said:
New Health Rankings: Of 17 Nations, U.S. Is Dead Last - Grace Rubenstein - The Atlantic



PHUCK YEAH!!!!!!!!
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Great solutions for all of this:
The highest rate of death by violence, by a stunning margin: Ban all guns, tell the bad people to please not use their illegal ones, watch the crime rate plummet like in Chicago......
The highest rate of death by car accident, also dramatically so: Ban cars and walk everywhere. That will solve the fat people problem. Or, the gov't dictate that no car can go over 25mph. Hey! That'll save gas.
The highest chance that a child will die before age 5: I won't make a joke here. Not appropriate. Though I seriously doubt it.
The second-highest rate of death by coronary heart disease: Ban fatty foods, big sodas (lol NY), kick every obese person off of welfare.
The second-highest rate of death by lung disease: Ban cigarrettes
The highest teen pregnancy rate: Ban sex before 20. All females must be checked weekly for virginity. Why not males you ask? Because you can't physically check them. You can check most girls.
The highest rate of women dying due to complications of pregnancy and childbirth: I'm sorry, I just don't believe that.

I don't believe half of this crap. For one, I'll wager we keep better stats than most people. Two, we have a much higher sample size than the other nations that were measured. Three, have any of you been to Europe before? Those people smoke like friggin chimneys man. There's no way we have more people with cancer here.
 
Re: We're Number......LAST

Sucre said:
Err ... No, in fact, I feel I am completely responsible for my own well-being, thank you. I don't think my government is responsible for me ... My government is responsible for all kind of stuff but not for me.

Besides being responsible for myself, I am also smart enough to want to pay the least possible for the highest possible well-being return. Get the highest return on any investment. This means that in some cases pooling resources with others will allow to get the highest return for myself. This is the case of health care for two reasons:
1 - Risk assessment (the probability to become ill is quite high in a life time and increases with aging)
2 -The high costs potentially associated with the realization of this risk.

This pays out. Pooling resources collectively to pay for health care pays out. International comparsions are all quite unequivocal: these "pretty much anybody elses in the world" systems you refer to use for international comparaisons all fair better than the US in terms of investment (cost) and in terms of return of investment (degree of health).

I don't think I need to post a link to demonstrate this well-known fact.;)

To finish with, society may not be based on "caring for" but needs "caring for" and "feeling concern" to go forward.
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I will point out a couple of things for you to research on your own if you wish. You will notice that my country whether my countrymen admit it or not has a bit of political coruption. I am feeling very generous today. You will also notice especially with more indepth research that there is a significant difference in like industries such as education and medical by comparing the differnt parts and differenttiating which have significant government involvment and those that dont. I would suggest you look at the price rise differentials of general care supported by government verses voluntary procedures and cash basis custmomers. I am not going to give it away but your eyes will be opened.

Theres a growing movement in my country of doctors going back to the kind of care we used to have which are house calls and a cash basis. Believe it or not my personal insurance plan for my familiy almost pays for itself and some years it does. Look into something called an HSA and you will see the mechanism by how I am able to do this.

There is in my country two different types of insurance. "Real" insurance that covers major medical essintially life or death. Works just like auto or any other insurance covers pretty much everthing after the deductable which is considerable mine is $25,000.This is what I have. Then there is PrePaid medical which is what the majority of insurance around here is as supplied by most of the employers to their employees. Lots of things are coverered but there are copays and splits. Its also pretty spendy, especially if you look to buy on your own, around 550 or so a month depending on the plan and the size family you have. Basically though its a prepaid medical plan that will cover major medical.

What works for you may not work for me. In fact my medical is paid for from the interest on the HSA. My insurance and medical essintially no cost to me directly after my intial investment, I dont believe in Germany you have anything quite comparable. In this country especially, one size definately does NOT fit all. We are not really comparable as my more so called "progressive" countrymen seem to think. We out here are a pretty diverse lot with different ways of living. Your not going to be able to make a straight across clean comparison. What works for you may only work for some of us. Thats what the fight is all about besides the power grab and individual rights issues.

Pooling is a insurance strategy that I am well aware of. I prefer to be able to select the pool most advantages to me.

Caring is not needed. Never really has been. Just an obligation to uphold a contract is all that is.
 
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I have a question about healthcare in America.

We have billions if not trillions of dollars going into American healthcare each year.

My question is quite simple where does it go?
Drug companies.
Hospitals most are charitable organizations
Doctors most MD'S are underpaid.
So where does the rest go???:peace
 
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Sucre said:
So you're not free? I think you should take responsibility for your freedom.
If you want not to jump in a pool that several like myself have decided to set up, there are a couple of possibilities. If you want no interference AT ALL, just go. As I said, nobody can prevent you from going and living in a cave... If you want to stay within a set group of people, let say because you have a family, you can still opt for a "I pay all my health care by myself" - simply don't take any salaried position and do not contract any private health insurance ... There is always a way not to participate in society.
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You miss the mark by thinking this is about me. It's not, I'm fine with giving single payer a go (not this bastard Obamacare BS). I don't believe it will work here, and will end up being a huge sucking nightmare, but I'm willing to give it a go and be proven wrong. I want to be proven wrong - but by reality, not some poster's hopes and dreams for reality.

The assertion was made that our systems differ in how we view personal responsibility and the mix we allow between personal responsibility and group responsibility, and when and where each holds the most sway. YOU asserted that your society's mix was towards personal responsibility and tortured an example to show it. That is what I addressed, what I responded to. You should know that because I quoted the assertion you made and specifically addressed it.

And no, to the further silliness, it is not possible, even here, to just withdraw to the cave and live without societal interference. Some busybody always gets concerned that you are "okay" and enlists the state to come check on you, to "do something" about you. It's an easy thing for the state to do, interfere. They can always pull out the fact that you don't own the cave, or if you do, that you're not paying the proper taxes on it or maintaining it the way the folks down the hill have legislated you must.
 
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